Gas tank and heater box markings

[ReaperEd]

68 Z - 6B

Tank had been painted black somewhere back in time so I had a shop remove the paint. I discovered these numbers while cleaning it.
Included the gas tank date stamp as well.

Also on the heater box was this number.
Enjoy

 

[Dave69x33]

I would like to revisit this topic.  The heater core box and the gas tank in my '69 05A (1st week of May) Norwood built Camaro; both had grease pencil marks "63" written on the top side as shown.  Does anyone know how these markings were used during the assembly process at the Fisher Body side of the Norwood operations? 

ReaperEd,  That is the date code stamping when your gas tank was manufactured.  My tank is dated "37 69." There is a related topic on CRG where many owners found and listed their gas tank date code vs. the build date of their Camaros. 

[68camaroz28]

Probably sequence number during assembly?

[KurtS]

Yup, sequence number on the Fisher side.

[Dave69x33]

Kurt,  Did Fisher Body apply this sequence number on the firewall with a paint pin or grease pin marker, and to the inside of the rim on the spare tire?

Also, was this sequence number communicated to the Chevrolet Assembly operations, and written on the inside surface of the lower front valance panel by Chevrolet, to help mate the front sheet metal assembly for with the body?

[jdv69z]

Fisher and Chevrolet were totally independent of each other - 2 separate companies. No markings, etc. done on the Fisher side would relate to anything on the Chevrolet side. Chevrolet workers would not care or even know what Fisher markings meant.

[Dave69x33]

jvd69z, There had to be some level of coordination between Fisher Body and Chevrolet final assembly. The bodies from the firewall back were near complete before they “went thru the wall” to Chevrolet assembly.

On example of coordination was the batches of the final color paint that were slit between the two plants to maintain color match when the entire front sheet metal dog house (painted on the Chevrolet side), was attached to the body and powertrain that was painted by the the Fisher Body side. 

Using my LeMans Blue X33 (RS) Z28 with factory installed (and date coded) ZL2 hood, we have to assume that the two plants sequenced and coordinated the two portions of this LeMans blue Camaro to come together at the appropriate time. The body firewall was punched for the 4-speed speedometer hole, the holes for the RS hose grommet and ZL2 hood wiring grommet, etc. If I recall correctly from the report covering the Norwood assembly process, there was a broadcast sheet attached to the Fisher Body, and a 2nd broadcast sheet that applied to the car by Chevrolet final assembly.

Many years ago at a Camaro Nationals, I saw a very well restored ‘69 SS with a sequence number written on the firewall (by Fisher Body), and the same sequence number applied to the spare tire rim, and also on the inside lower front valance panel. That lead me to my most recent question, to get feedback and understand to what extent the sequence number was applied to Norwood build Camaros.  How did they match up my LeMans blue prepares RS front fenders with my LeMans blue prepared body?

[Dave69x33]

Sorry for the typo…split not slit the paint batches. Guess I should not type this stuff on my smart phone  late at night…lol.

[dannystarr]

Here are SOME examples on my cars... Danny

[dannystarr]

more

[dannystarr]

couple more...

[67CruiseMaster]

These are off of my 09C Coupe. Builder got crayon happy. I do not know what the 320 means on the passenger side of the firewall.

[Dave69x33]

Thanks dannystarr, your pics are exactly what I wanted to see. This resemble what I have seen on another restored Camaro. I like the fact your pics are take on unrestored cars to help drive home my point. It’s interesting that “22” is marked on the spare tire.  I wounder if that same “22” sequence number is marked on the fuel tank and on the heater core box, similar to the “63” marked on my parts. 

Was the spare tire and jack assembly installed by Fisher Body or were they installed in the car toward the end of the line, in a button up station on the Chevrolet final assembly side of the operations? If the spare was installed by Fisher Body, it makes sense that the spare and a few other components would all have the same sequence number marked on the them. This gave the assembly line workers a “status at a glance” view of the parts to pull targeted for a specific Camaro, i.e. 15” wheels vs. 14” wheels, etc.

Fun research stuff!

[Dave69x33]

dannystarr, Curious if the 562 and 452 markings on your cars relate to the body sequence number (last 3 digits) imprinted on the body trim plate?  If I am not mistaken, I don’t believe they do but just checking?  Thanks!

[R68GTO]

When you guys refer to the number written on the "top of he front valance", for my clarity are you referring to the radiator side of the lower valance under the front bumper?

[Dave69x33]

R68GTO, the marking I saw was written on the inside surface of the lower valance panel, below the bumper. So when the hood was open, you could see the mark looking straight down thru the space between the radiator and the rear side of the front grill.  The markings that dannystarr posted look like they are on the inside surface of the upper header panel, but he can confirm.

[dannystarr]

  Top inside of lower valance on both. So yes, pop the hood and look down.
 
  And they DO NOT line up with body sequence numbers. I have several NONE line up.

[cook_dw]

Those numbers do not correlate with the body number.

[KurtS]

It’s interesting that “22” is marked on the spare tire.  I wonder if that same “22” sequence number is marked on the fuel tank and on the heater core box, similar to the “63” marked on my parts.

Definitely not. You should read JohnZ's assembly article - tires were Chevy side. There was no axle or subframe when the car was on the Fisher side - no place to attach the wheels.
Yes, there was a lot of coordination between Fisher and Chevrolet - but Jimmy's point was that markings weren't coordinated.

[Dave69x33]

Kurt,
Two points and questions:

1.) Sequence No. on spare: I was referring only to the spare tire. I just reread JohnZ’s assembly process report to confirm when the spare tire was placed in the trunk. It reads like the spare and jack components were placed in the trunk by Fisher Body. Then on the Chevrolet side of the operation (Norwood Plant), after the chassis-to-body marriage, it’s states under “Other Operations,” that the jack and spare tire were secured, and the wheel covers and floor mats were placed in the trunk. That tells me that it’s very possible that the sequence number Fisher Body marked on the heater box, and fuel tank may have also been marked on the spare tire like the “22” mark shown in dannystarr’s picture above.  I would like to try and confirm what components the sequence number was “typically” marked on by Fisher body. What I find odd is why would “63” be marked on my fuel tank. The fuel tank was standard on all ‘69 Camaros so why would a sequence number be necessary? I understand why a sequence number would be assigned to the spare tire, and heater box (BB vs. SB car, and AC).

2.) Based on the sequence markings that dannystarr shared on two different survivor Camaros, there was a coordinated sequence number marked on the firewall by Fisher Body, and by Chevrolet on the front end sheet metal subassembly b4 it was attached to the body.  This makes since to help make sure that the correct front end sheet metal would be mated to the body due to the fender differences between an RS bs. Non-RS.  Why else would the same 3-digit number be marked on both portions of the car by both plants?

[dannystarr]

Here is another one I took. However, this number is not on the firewall, just the front valance. Danny

[KurtS]

It reads like the spare and jack components were placed in the trunk by Fisher Body.

Incorrect. It clearly states the wheels are painted on the Chevrolet side. And tells when the spare was installed. Neither on the Fisher side.

The fuel tank was standard on all ‘69 Camaros so why would a sequence number be necessary?

Fuel senders.

[Dave69x33]

Kurt, reread the report and it makes sense that the spare was delivered with the set of tires for each car.  Is the “22” mark in dannystarr’s picture a sequence number defined on the Chevrolet side?

[KurtS]

Yes. I don't know if all 5 wheels would have been marked or not.

[cook_dw]

On a chevelle I preserved only 2 of the 5 were marked and it was inside the hoop where the tire was mounted.  My 68 L78 has the marking on the backside of the wheel and corresponding numbers on the spare tire itself.

[janobyte]

What was used as the spare was put into rotation around first two years of the car. By 70-71 all five wheels were off and in the rafters. In 76 one was grabbed for a custom wheel cover and thrown in the trunk for a show. In 89 I had radials mounted (keeping the bias plies) on four wheels. The one posted ended up on the driver's rear,,,for 32 years. In my mind's eye, all wheels were numbered, this one standing out. Chick questioned/corrected me. When I took a look at the wheel (covered and in storage since 76,,no number) With the new tires mounted,,well #10 made it's way back to rear driver's. What was used as the "spare" left un-restored, original tire mounted.

Also is a pic of my tank,#10. Heater box, well just may have got sick of shooting pics for a bit, cannot find one. I'm at the point of having shot over a thousand at this time (document,document) Probably buried in a file.

[janobyte]

Poor pic of the tank marking,,see what I can do...

[janobyte]

xxx

[Dave69x33]

janobuye, thanks for the pictures! Your pictures from an unrestored car help to confirm how the Fisher Body vs. Chevrolet side of the Norwood assembly operations, assigned sequence numbers on components. You have a “10” on your rim, which was installed on the Chevrolet side, and a “10” on your fuel tank. Do you happen to have a “10” marked anywhere on your firewall?  I need to carefully read the assembly process report again to determine when/who installed the fuel tank, Fisher Body or Chevrolet. I had “63” marked on my fuel tank and heater core box, so I assumed Fisher Body installed both.

dannystarr had a common sequence number marked on his fire wall (thus by Fisher Body) and on the lower valance panel of the front sheet metal subassembly, which would have been marked by Chevrolet. That tells us Fisher Body and Chevrolet shared sequence number information. This shared info may have been driven by the body broadcast sheet taped to the body when it passed thru the wall to Chevrolet. We know the sequence number was not related to the Fisher Body number embossed on the body tag.

I believe I read or heard that bodies released from the body bank were marked 001 thru XXX each day. It was a simple number assembly line workers could quickly see and related which component parts to pull for that body. However, this is only an educated guess on my part. I have worked my entire career as a manufacturing engineer, and for the past 20+ years in automotive powertrain operations. Today pallets with smart RFID read/write tags can receive info (sequence numbers, etc.), and readers can release palleted subassemblies to the right place at the right time along the assembly line. 30-50 years ago, long before smart RFID, bar codes, etc., simple sequence numbers and the broadcast sheets attached the Fisher Body and Chevrolet car assembly where key to direct the assembly line work. The assembly line process report notes at the end of the Chevrolet assembly line, operators de-papered the broadcast sheets from the car and tossed them.

Wish my Camaro happened to be one of the cars that those folks stuffed all those broadcast sheets under my seat! LOL!

[169INDY]

Not sure if this is OVER simplification (Generalization?) but, "IF" it is detailed in the AIM (Chevrolet Assembly Instruction Manual) then it was 'done' work accomplished i.e. assembled on the Chevy (LOS/NOR) side,,,,,,,

[KurtS]

dannystarr had a common sequence number marked on his fire wall (thus by Fisher Body)

Huh?? So Chevrolet couldn't mark anything on the firewall??

[Dave69x33]

169Indy,  I have a copy of the '69 AIM and it does show that the heater core box and fuel tank were both installed on the Chevrolet side, plus after reading the Norwood assembly process report, it does confirm that the Chevrolet operations installed these items.

I have the historical book "Echoes of Norwood" written by Phillip Borris.  Its a great book with diagrams and picture documenting the history of the Norwood operations.  On pages 91 - 92 it explains that a new IBM Series 360 model 40 computer mainframe was used to help increase production build efficiencies at Norwood taking into consideration the work load cycle time required at each step of the assembly process.  It use Fortran programming language that generate punch cards that had to be batch processed 72 hours ahead of each production day. Daily, a Chevrolet data processing operator would deliver to Fisher Body a stack of processed punch cards.  This is how the two plants communicated and coordinated the build schedules per customer dealer orders. The IBM computer system took into account the high option content (RPO content) Camaros, etc. and helped with how high option content Camaros were release from the body bank, at the beginning of the Chevrolet side of the assembly operations.  The book along with the assembly report on the CRG website explain further how the trimmed out body shells from Fisher Body were received in the body bank, and how Chevrolet released them in to a "lock in" build sequence. 

Pertinent to the topic how sequence numbers were incorporated, the Echoes of Norwood book explains that an operator operating a large console in the Chevrolet body bank would "enter the production sequence number expressed as the daily unit build number tabulation number 001 through unit 999 for a given day", repeating again each day.  The console operator also entered the body identification number from trim plate installed by Fisher Body (shown on a body and chassis broadcast sheets as the "ident. number).  The VIN numbers were assigned sequentially and the last 6-digits of the VIN were entered in the computer system and included on the printed broadcast sheets.  The IBM computer system could automatically reject a portion of the vehicle build if plant inventories would not support the build.  The body bank (called out as a cycle bank) operator had the option to override the computer and release the vehicle with the understanding that it would be completed in a repair bay.  Based on my experience in automotive powertrain operations, you DO NOT shut down an automotive assembly plant, considered the "cash cow" of any automotive industrial operation!

The Echoes of Norwood book goes on to explain that once the build sequence was approved, the production scheduling of each vehicle, all the component parts, options and accessories were sent by the IBM computer teletype system instantly to update the build order and thus coordinated all the assembly departments with the main line.  At that point the body bank operator released the body that matched the "IBM selected vehicle assembly build sequence. As noted earlier, each body was then locked in the assembly process. It would only be moved out of its build sequence if a repair was necessary.

The CRG report along with the Echoes of Norwood book show bodies with body broadcast sheets taped to the body firewall area, and eventually relocating the body broadcast sheet to front inside area of the windshield next to the chassis broad case sheet. See example pictures below of the broadcast sheets. The book explains that initially, operators were resistant to change referring to a computer generated paper broadcast sheet rather than to the trim tag.  For a period of time, the body trim plate was painted white to make it easier to see the major option content.

At some point, the operators, engineers, and plant management on both the Fisher Body and Chevrolet sides of the Norwood operations must of agreed on marking the sequence number on the firewall by Fisher Body, and on the lower from valance as a completed front sheet metal subassembly by Chevrolet.  Dannystarr's pictures clearly show this.  Sequence markings on the body firewall would have been more clearly legible to operators as the body progress down the assembly line, and pull the correct parts for that specific car.  A sequence number printed on a broadcast sheet would have been hard to read taped to the firewall and/or inside the front windshield.

Sorry for the long discussion on the Norwood assembly operations.  I feel its important to understand the Norwood assembly operations and methods to gain a better understanding how the "vehicle's" sequence number was used, both by Fisher Body and Chevrolet, and what other components the sequence number was written on:  i.e. heater core boxes, fuel tanks, wheel rims/spare tire rims, etc.   

The body broadcast sheet is from a friend's '69 RS Camaro.

If anyone has pictures of their Camaro during a restoration showing all the parts that had the sequence number written on them, I would love to see them!
   

[dannystarr]

What about multiple numbers? I have a car with stamps 49... 63... 130... 131... 452... Maybe a couple more. How would we know if Fischer or Chevrolet stamped them? Does it depend on the location? ... Danny

[Dave69x33]

Danny,

Are all those numbers on the same car(s)?

Are there different numbers marked on various parts on the same car?

Based on the CRG assembly process report, other than the semi-finished body shells that were being delivered by Fisher Body, most of the parts would have been marked on the Chevrolet side where they were installed.

Dave

[Dave69x33]

For clarification, here is a summary what the Fisher Body completed before the “shell” was delivered to The Chevrolet options:

“Trim Shop: Installs wiring, glass and moldings, weatherstrips, door and deck lid hardware, interior and exterior trim, taillights, moldings and emblems, headliner, seats and rear carpets, water tests, and ships the trimmed body to Chevrolet.”

[GMAD_Van Nuys]

Although I worked at the Van Nuys Plant, beginning in 1978, it is my understanding that efficiency was measured based on the labor standards calculated by industrial engineering for someone to perform a given task on the assembly line.  As GMAD Van Nuys was a 2 story facility and the standards were based on a one story plant, there was an adjustment made (realization factor, if I recall correctly) and after daily production was concluded, an efficiency report was transmitted to Central Office.  Our scheduling department had some say when we received a build schedule from Central Office, but in the end, we only built cars according to the schedule from Central Office.   

[Dave69x33]

GMAD_Van Nuys,

Interesting! I worked as a manufacturing/process engineer during 1985 - 1998 at the former Allison Gas Turbine (AGT) Division of GM in Indianapolis, IN. I was there when it was sold and eventually landed with Rolls-Royce Aerospace.  I recall the Industrial Engineers under AGT also had labor standards; however, due to the low volume/high revenue per unit aerospace business, it was hard to hold production to strict standard labor hours.  Some individual gas turbine parts took weeks to manufacture!  Aerospace parts are very expensive, involve very specialize manufacturing processes, so rework is common an often done to salvage parts. 

I left AGT/Rolls-Royce to help project manage and help launch two new Chrysler Transmission Plants in Kokomo, IN. These powertrain plants were very high volume (3200 and 1600 transmission per day), and operated under a completely different business model from aerospace.  Labor standards were important but most all the fabrication lines were automated that used conveyors, pick-and-place units, robots, robotic vision, and palletized conveyors to transfer parts between operations. For the past 11 years I have work as a manufacturing project engineer at Allison Transmission in Indianapolis.  We make a wide range of heavy duty automatic transmission for school buses, UPS/FedEx style trucks, ambulances, dump trucks, cement mixers, the tow trucks that push jets from the jet way, fire trucks, as well as off-road mining trucks and equipment. Allison also still make the transmissions for the M1 Abrams battle tanks!

All told, most all GM, Ford, Chrysler plants "back in the day" as well as today along with many other modern manufacturing plants, use work place organization and visual based controls for the operators to get the "status at a glance" condition of parts, part placement, quality indicators, etc. 

When I read the book Echoes of Norwood Plant, aspects of Norwood reminded me of AGT!  I can just imaging how challenging it must have been to implement a new computer system with printed broadcast sheets taped on cars for the workers to follow.  I can just imaging that a portion of the workforce asked (revolted, complained, pushed management) for a simple sequence number to be marked on the body so they could quickly see and pull the correct parts for the car as it progress thru assembly.  Some parts must have been marked with the corresponding sequence number, while other parts had broadcast sheet or some sort of sequence number sheet taped to them.  The Echoes of Norwood book shows the taped sheet on the rear axle assemblies and front sub frame assemblies.     

[GMAD_Van Nuys]

I remember when someone from industrial engineering would go out into the assembly plant with a stop watch and do a time study on an operation.  When I was at Van Nuys, you basically had about a minute to perform your operation and most of the work was not easy.  The plant was also not air conditioned and it would get really hot in the summer, especially on the second floor where we used water-based paint.

I left GM and went to McDonnell Douglas in Long Beach, CA.  I had to submit the Program Cost Estimate to the Air Force for the C-17, which was based on actuals, standards, realization factors, out-of-position work, etc.  I had an spreadsheet which had inputs for touch labor and sustaining effort and would have to manual change the lot break points, based on requests from the Air Force for future production lot buy scenarios.  I got really good changing learning curves and doing parametric estimates as during the early days of the C-17, there was a concern about unit cost, mostly due to budget constraints.  I don't believe we ever produced more than 16 C-17s in any production lot, even though the assembly plant, Bldg. 54, was designed to produce over 24 planes.  I laugh when I hear what a great the C-17 is as when I was on the Lot 4, 5, and 6 negotiation team, we were always being told the program was going to be cancelled!

I have to admit I liked working more at GM.  When I visited the plant at Bowling Green, they didn't stop the line when changing shifts as the assembly line moved so slowly that it wasn't necessary!

[dannystarr]

  Danny,
 
Are all those numbers on the same car(s)?    Numbers posted are from the same car.

Are there different numbers marked on various parts on the same car?      Yes and No   The 49 and the 63 are a foot and a half from each other on the side of the left frame rail. All other numbers are a different locations.   Danny

[samz]

Example of heater box ,and spare on my Norwood  69 Z/28.

[Dave69x33]

samz,

Thanks for your post!  Looks like you have "47" written on your heater box and spare tire.  What is your VIN No. and the trim tag build date of your Norwood '69Z?  Curious to see how close it might be to my VIN "N638712" 05A Norwood build '69Z.  If your car has not been restored, is there any noticeable similar marking on your firewall or on the inside lower front valance panel?

jnobyte's '68Z has "10" marked on his heater box and spare tire, so maybe we can start to see a pattern!

dannystar share common markings on his firewall and lower inside front valance panel.

That is the reason I will ask for trim tag build dates and partial VIN numbers to try and associate a time period with the practice of marking components targeted to specific Camaros.  VINs and build dates may also help correlate when Norwood launched their IBM computer system and use of printed broadcast build sheets, the use of daily unit build "tabulation numbers" or the "sequence" number printed on the build sheets, and perhaps markings on components.

[samz]

Dave,
  There are no similar markings on the firewall or lower front valance panel. The gas tank does have a number that is hard to read, it does not appear to be 47.
  VIN #NOR160115 10E X33 trim, unrestored.
  let me know if you need anything else, happy to help.