VN built 69 Camaro with a Firebird VIN on the transmission?

[RSSSFanatic]

OK, I got a bit of a surprise when I removed the Muncie M-20 from my Van Nuys built L35 car to install a clutch.  Car is a 10A build, engine VIN checks out, but the Muncie has a completely weird looking VIN stamped on it.  It is a faint stamping and pretty hard to read the last 2 digits, but it appears to be "76L103238".  It has a date stamp of P9P10, which seems to fall into the acceptable range of when the car was built.  I have owned this car for 25 years, it has a very solid set of documents including the build sheet, warranty transfer plate, a lot of old receipts, and a very extensive log book that was kept by the second owner (bought it in 1972) that lists every fuel stop and maintenance entry all the way up until the early 80's.  To my knowledge, I am the third registered owner of the car, although it passed through the hands of a few collectors before I ended up with it.

A couple of other idiosyncrasies are that it has a jack sticker for a Firebird under the decklid, and a Firebird deluxe rear seat bottom.

I am aware that they were also building Firebirds on this line at the same time.  Being an early build, it sounds like maybe they were having some supply chain issues or some other confusion.  The second owner documents one clutch replacement while he owned the car, done at a GM dealership.  It seems like the odds that someone would swap in a Firebird M-20 that happened to be built at Van Nuys with that date code would be kind of slim, and based on what else I know about the car, I feel fairly confident that it left the factory this way.  Can anybody provide any insight as to how this could have been botched like this?  I'm sure some will argue that someone swapped that transmission into the car somewhere along the way, but I would be very surprised if this was the case, although I guess it may be possible.

Looking forward to hearing some comments.  Anyone ever seen anything like this?

[bertfam]

Can you post pictures of the partial VIN and the suffix? The partial VIN "76Lxxx" isn't normal. It should be 19Lxxxx for a Camaro, or 29Lxxx for a Firebird.

The chances of a Firebird transmission being installed in a Camaro at the factory is slim at best. The engine and transmission were gang stamped as an assembled unit (in other words, the transmission was mated to the engine, then both were stamped), so the only way to get a Firebird Muncie in a Camaro would be to also have a Firebird ENGINE in a Camaro!

From John's FIRST-GENERATION CAMARO ASSENBLY PROCESS:

In the engine schedule area, the operator grabbed the next Broadcast Copy from the printer, verified the sequence number, noted the engine code required for that car, and moved an air-powered overhead hoist on traveling bridge rails over the correct engine rack. The specified engine was hoisted out of the rack and transferred to the next hook on the overhead engine dress line conveyor, where the throwout bearing (on manuals) was greased and installed, along with the clutch fork boot. Another operator on the other side of the line repeated the process with the specified transmission, which was then installed and bolted to the engine; on automatics, an air tool was used to rotate the flexplate, and the converter bolts were driven, followed by the lower cover.

The VIN derivative numbers were stamped in the next operation on both the engine pad and the transmission, using a gang-stamp holder and a hammer.

Ed

[bcmiller]

OK, I got a bit of a surprise when I removed the Muncie M-20 from my Van Nuys built L35 car to install a clutch.  Car is a 10A build, engine VIN checks out, but the Muncie has a completely weird looking VIN stamped on it.  It is a faint stamping and pretty hard to read the last 2 digits, but it appears to be "76L103238".  It has a date stamp of P9P10, which seems to fall into the acceptable range of when the car was built.  I have owned this car for 25 years, it has a very solid set of documents including the build sheet, warranty transfer plate, a lot of old receipts, and a very extensive log book that was kept by the second owner (bought it in 1972) that lists every fuel stop and maintenance entry all the way up until the early 80's.  To my knowledge, I am the third registered owner of the car, although it passed through the hands of a few collectors before I ended up with it.

A couple of other idiosyncrasies are that it has a jack sticker for a Firebird under the decklid, and a Firebird deluxe rear seat bottom.

I am aware that they were also building Firebirds on this line at the same time.  Being an early build, it sounds like maybe they were having some supply chain issues or some other confusion.  The second owner documents one clutch replacement while he owned the car, done at a GM dealership.  It seems like the odds that someone would swap in a Firebird M-20 that happened to be built at Van Nuys with that date code would be kind of slim, and based on what else I know about the car, I feel fairly confident that it left the factory this way.  Can anybody provide any insight as to how this could have been botched like this?  I'm sure some will argue that someone swapped that transmission into the car somewhere along the way, but I would be very surprised if this was the case, although I guess it may be possible.

Looking forward to hearing some comments.  Anyone ever seen anything like this?

Never seen one stamped like that. You have a PM.

[jdv69z]

Did they build Firebirds at Van Nuys? I thought it was a Norwood thing.

[bertfam]

Did they build Firebirds at Van Nuys?

Norwood started building Firebirds in April of 1969, but Van Nuys built them in 1968 and 1969. As a matter of fact, the Van Nuys plant assembled the very first Trans-Am! (see below)

Van Nuys also built Chevrolet full size cars. They were a busy bunch of surfer dudes!!

Ed

[RSSSFanatic]

Well, the surfer dudes who built my car must have been smoking something, because they put the wrong seat and decklid sticker on it too.  There are a couple of pretty experienced Camaro collectors who know the car.  I am not saying that somewhere along the way someone didn't swap some things out.  But it would come as quite a surprise to me, considering the car's history.

[x66 714]

Well, the surfer dudes who built my car must have been smoking something, because they put the wrong seat and decklid sticker on it too.  There are a couple of pretty experienced Camaro collectors who know the car.  I am not saying that somewhere along the way someone didn't swap some things out.  But it would come as quite a surprise to me, considering the car's history.

You should post some pictures for us....Joe

[RSSSFanatic]

I am in communication with one of the long-time CRG members and he is going to forward the pictures of the VIN on to a couple of Camaro experts to evaluate it.  I will post them when I pull them off my phone.  I'm not great with posting them straight off my phone to the site.  Once we figure out what happened (if), I'll post the pictures up for all to see.  It truly is an odd thing.  I always thought the trunk sticker was strange, and I am 100% sure that it's the decklid that came on the car.

[69Z28-RS]

100% means CERTAINTY...    Were you there in the factory when they made this monstumental screwup???

[bertfam]

I never said it was impossible, only slim. There's one scenario where this could happen:

Line workers mate the engine and transmission together and the incorrect Firebird partial VIN is stamped on the transmission. The mistake is discovered and the line worker grabs the CORRECT  gang stamp and stamps the correct Camaro partial VIN on the engine pad.

However, in this scenario, the mistake would have (SHOULD HAVE) been fixed by X'ing out the incorrect Firebird partial VIN and restamping the correct Camaro partial VIN on the transmission. Or at the very least, stamping the correct Camaro partial VIN on the transmission.

Do you also have the correct CAMARO partial VIN stamp on the transmission or just the incorrect Firebird?

What "decklid sticker" are you referring to? Posi sticker? Jacking sticker?

And there have been other Camaros that have been rumored to have Firebird seats, but nothing firm.

Ed

[bcmiller]

I received permission to post the transmission stamps.

This is quite puzzling but it probably is not the original one for this car. The 6 digit sequence number could fit for a Firebird but the 76 at the start is just odd. Never seen anything like that before.

Others may have a different opinion.

[bcmiller]

Transmission side cover is 3950306 - correct for 69 M20.
Metal tag is 3950356 - correct for 69 M20.
Tail housing is 3857584 - correct for 69 M20. I know Chevrolet used this for the passenger side speedometer.  Some Pontiacs used the 429 tail housing.

[cook_dw]

A 6 or upside down 9..?.

My guess is someone was little hung over and grabbed a 7 instead of a 2 and had the 9 upside down..  Only thing that makes sense to me.  Yes I am grasping at straws.  Also no A, B or C.

[RSSSFanatic]

Ed, I was referring to the sticker on the underside of the trunk lid for the jack instructions.  Mine has a Firebird on it.  I believe it to be original.  I also have deluxe comfortweave, and the rear seat bottom has the larger Firebird pattern rather than Camaro.

I have read several articles about the VN plant that they had a lot of quality control and employee morale problems.  If the idiosyncracies on this car are in fact as it rolled off the line, then I think that is supported.

I know I probably sound like an idiot saying that I believe that these things are original to the car, but the documentation and background of the car support it.  Maybe I was sold a bill of goods when I bought the car from a local collector, but he has long handled a lot of high end Chevy's and I think he has a pretty good reputation.  But I am not going to name names until I have a little bit better idea what's going on here.

[bcmiller]

The transmission may be fine.

I can’t for sure say that it’s golden though.

Could just be a factory screw up.

[firstgenaddict]

The VIN is low enough that the trans should not have the ABC suffix.

Dave Beem's One owner 05C L78 conv has a firebird lower seat cushion.

[cook_dw]

The VIN is low enough that the trans should not have the ABC suffix.

Good catch.. 

[bcmiller]

Nobody was ever arguing that is should have an A code on it. Were they?

[cook_dw]

I said it had no A, B or C.  I was wrong on the implementation dates of the code.  For some reason I had it started in Sept of 68 not Oct..  James corrected my mistake.

[bcmiller]

Got it.

[RSSSFanatic]

Another thing that is weird with this transmission is that it appears that it never had the O-shaped magnet installed in the bottom of the main case.  No sign of any glue or residue.  I am torn between leaving it like it is and just buying a magnetic drain plug for the side and getting one and epoxying it in there.

[GMAD_Van Nuys]

I've owned a 1979 Pontiac Trans Am that was built at the Van Nuys Plant since 1986 and have all the original documents for the vehicle, which include the window sticker, dealer invoice, warranties and maintenance invoices, and can say that although the VIN number is stamped on the Borg Warner Super T-10 transmission, the block was never stamped.  For the 1979 model year, Pontiac shipped completed 400 cu inch engines to Van Nuys in 1978 and the engines were stored in an area next to the Cushion Room by the train tracks.  You could identify the Pontiac 400 engines as they had chrome valve covers.  The 400 engines for 1979 had an engine identification code of "PWH" instead of code "WC" that was used in 1978 for the Firebirds with 4-speed transmissions.  Although I believe that the engine in my Trans Am is the original motor and has never been rebuilt, even though I was an employee at the plant when the car was built, I can't say what happened with my car as I wasn't the operator stamping the VIN numbers.

I also own a 1970 BOSS 302 Mustang and the last VIN number stamped on the transmission should be a "7," but shows a "2."  The VIN numbers were stamped individually on the block and transmission in 1970 at the Dearborn Plant and I would find it difficult to believe that the transmission isn't the original, but I would only be speculating.

I will say that we didn't have air conditioning on the assembly line at Van Nuys when I worked there and during the summer, it got so hot, especially on the second floor where we used water-based paint.  Not an easy place to work, but in general, everyone did the best we could as few wanted to be transferred to another location if the plant was closed.

[MO]

I've owned a 1979 Pontiac Trans Am that was built at the Van Nuys Plant since 1986 and have all the original documents for the vehicle, which include the window sticker, dealer invoice, warranties and maintenance invoices, and can say that although the VIN number is stamped on the Borg Warner Super T-10 transmission, the block was never stamped.

Congrats, very few made.

[Kelley W King]

You could run the firebird VIN through PHS just to see what comes up.

[RSSSFanatic]

Kelley, are you talking about the partial VIN that was on my transmission, or the fellow with the 79?  My problem is that it is not a valid VIN - I suppose I could take a guess on it, but there are different number sequences depending on whether coupe or convertible.  Also, it is almost impossible to make out the last two numbers.

[bcmiller]

Wouldn’t make any sense in my mind to run the partial on the M20 with PHS. It’s not in a Firebird.

[KurtS]

Looks to me like they just stamped the wrong VIN on it on the engine dress line. I've seen this before and I've seen a Firebird engine with a Camaro VIN.

[Charley]

I would keep it all as is. Maybe more like it will show up with similar build times.

[RSSSFanatic]

Oh believe me, I'm not changing anything that would affect the car's originality.  Just cleaning things up and fixing things like oil leaks.  I reluctantly replaced the u-joints, only because they were getting a little questionable after all those years.  Would prefer to have the originals in there.

[Jonesy]

Seat and sticker could have easily been added in the years prior. to your ownership. I am not buying the trans being a goof up.
You owned it 25 years but that gets it back to mid 90's and there is another 25 years that things could have easily been changed out.

[RSSSFanatic]

A little more information:

I checked the decklid for date codes, and it has a date code that falls in line with the build of the car.  That is an old sticker that has not been applied any time recently.  And why would someone put a Firebird jack sticker on a Camaro decklid many years after the fact?  When people fake things, they try to make them look as close to the norms as possible.

I was looking through my documents and came across the paperwork from when the second owner purchased the car in 1971 from Ellis Brooks Chevrolet in San Francisco.  On it is an imprint of the original protecto-plate for the car, showing the correct VIN that matches the car, the assembly date stamp that matches the engine, the exact same date stamp that appears on the transmission, and the rear end stamping.  In my mind, this puts this to rest as some type of factory aberration.  I think the odds that someone found a Muncie M-20 with the exact same stamp as the protecto-plate, along with a stange VIN that happens to have the Los Angeles "L" in the sequence are extremely slim.  If someone stamped the date on the case at a later date, why would the not stamp a matching VIN to the car as well?  This date code stamping on the transmission has already been verified as a legitimate stamping.

[Jonesy]

Well with that info, I would say that the Vin was a goof up and not a Firebird VIN but a Goofed Camaro VIN. The seat and sticker who knows.

[RSSSFanatic]

Yeah, it's pretty goofy.

So how do you describe a car like this?  I suppose technically it's not "numbers matching", or at least not "VIN matching".  I guess you would describe it as "documented original drivetrain"?  Just curious in case I decide to list it somewhere.  Seems like you get a lot of grey area on this and some shady wording by some, although I think this car is about as honest as they come.

[ko-lek-tor]

Yeah, it's pretty goofy.

So how do you describe a car like this?  I suppose technically it's not "numbers matching", or at least not "VIN matching".  I guess you would describe it as "documented original drivetrain"?  Just curious in case I decide to list it somewhere.  Seems like you get a lot of grey area on this and some shady wording by some, although I think this car is about as honest as they come.

“Born With Drive train” that term trumps all others as to describing a legitimate number matching car and that is how it should be referred. Anyone that knows these cars will understand what that means.

[bcmiller]

The date on the POP for transmission assembly is the same as what is on the transmission. Now I am thinking there is a better than average chance of it being original to the car. The engine and axle are original.