Author Topic: Caveat Emptor...block stamp  (Read 7364 times)

william

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Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« on: December 31, 2020, 04:11:00 PM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro/124507822531?hash=item1cfd3e99c3:g:8xYAAOSwFahf7RFz

124379L524035...body tag VN263788

From the ad:

"The original DZ 302 motor has been completely rebuilt..."

Engine is stamped T0212DZ, block cast September 20, 1968. We are expected to believe the block sat around over 20 weeks before becoming the only Tonawanda 302. Other DZ engines built in that time frame have 618 blocks cast Jan 31-Feb 8.

"I have owned over a hundred first generation Camaro's..."

Body tag shows it was born Frost Green, green standard interior.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 08:13:49 PM by william »
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z28z11

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2020, 07:38:05 PM »
Does the fact it's a VN build qualify it for a Tonawanda block (read as a 388 block) ? In that time frame, should be a solid 6618 Flint build for sure.

Regards,
Steve

1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

william

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2020, 07:49:05 PM »
Tonawanda could not build high performance small-blocks. All built at Flint.
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z28z11

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2021, 02:44:08 AM »
Tonawanda could not build high performance small-blocks. All built at Flint.

Exactly my point. I have heard of one or two supposedly documented 302's built on the 388 block, but I can't verify them, nor have I ever seen one in the flesh. I've seen more than several 388 blocks in Pace Cars, Tonawanda built as 350/300 horse engines  (like mine), I assume it's the 4 bolt variant unlike the low horse version (255 hp ?) found in passenger cars and trucks.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

adjudimo

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2021, 03:56:30 AM »
Everything I have read over the years states just what you guys have stated. They are evidently of the mind group that if you say/print it enough, then it becomes truth/fact. Their favorite book to read growing up was probably "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

WorkinProgress

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2021, 04:13:57 AM »
My 04A built Van Nuys JL8 Z/28 has a 3932388 block, cast B-25-9 and assembled V0318DZ.

                                     - Warren

HOT3O2

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2021, 04:24:56 PM »
I got in touch with the guy selling the car. He stated the block had to have the number 7 cylinder re sleeved and during the process the block was decked and the motor builder re stamped it.
Rick
69 RS/Z28

z28z11

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2021, 05:38:03 PM »
My 04A built Van Nuys JL8 Z/28 has a 3932388 block, cast B-25-9 and assembled V0318DZ.

                                     - Warren

I would tend to believe that in opposition to a Tonawanda assembled 388 block built as a 302, as William indicated. Since Tonawanda did not assemble the HP small blocks ordinarily, it would require transfer of the components to affect the build - why would they do that ? I could imagine block transfers or substitutions, but not internals for a less-than-handful of engines, just my opinion. This excerpt is from "Block Casting Numbers", CRG: "The 3932388 block is sometimes noted as being 'rare', but it actually was commonly used in mid-69 production. It was cast and used mainly at Tonawanda. The 3956618 block was also used in mid-69 production."

I have seen 4 bolt 6618 blocks used as 255 hp 350 engines in Camaros, trucks and as 302's - 010 blocks the same way. 388's are far less common.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2021, 08:18:53 PM »
HOT302 - Did you ask the owner about the rear bumper?  Did GM stamp date codes on bumpers?

HOT3O2

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2021, 08:40:55 PM »
No sorry, I sure didnít.
Rick
69 RS/Z28

jvb6648

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2021, 12:41:13 AM »
Where is the block stamped, it doesn't appear to be on the deck, no signs of machining, and why would the machinist restamp at the the filter area? When did they start stamping near the filter  and did Tonawanda stamp there also?
Jim
68 Z/28

Kelley W King

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2021, 01:18:32 AM »
The stamp looks to me like it is not even on a type of metal I have seen unless they ground a flat spot on the block near the filter. Whatever it is to me as a buyer it would be worthless as far as value.
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z28z11

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2021, 01:19:31 AM »
Partial VIN's were stamped at the assembly plant, Norwood began stamping the partial above the oil filter on the side of the block in December to avoid removing the alternator. From discussion on the the CRG, VN cars were intermittent; a lot if not most of them were stamped on the deck until later in the year. The stamping shown in the ad looks plausible in comparison to my only 350 example (my Z11 block stamping is pictured), but the ad doesn't show the partial VIN. I would guess that it would be on the deck if it was legitimate -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

z28z11

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2021, 01:42:04 AM »
Where is the block stamped, it doesn't appear to be on the deck, no signs of machining, and why would the machinist restamp at the the filter area? When did they start stamping near the filter  and did Tonawanda stamp there also?

Copy the image in the ad, flip it 180 degrees and blow it up a bit. The eBay pic is so small it doesn't copy very well, nor could Image Resizer expand it without losing definition for me. It's on the pad right where it should be, look at the casting features on my pic and you'll see the same shape around it.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

firstgenaddict

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2021, 03:57:59 PM »
My 04A built Van Nuys JL8 Z/28 has a 3932388 block, cast B-25-9 and assembled V0318DZ.

                                     - Warren

They transferred castings between the foundries and the machining operations in order to ensure that the castings were able to be machined in BOTH locations for redundancies in case something happened to one of the machining locations or one of the foundries. There were not that many and very few ended up in a vehicle WE have any interest in.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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usa1ti

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2021, 12:19:19 PM »
H 1 9 heads on a Feb 02C car? Either I am missing something or those cant be original. Block is a T restamp so I don't think any of it is original. May not even have a 1178 crank in it. Looks like it started life as a 350/300.
Todd, East TN

WorkinProgress

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2021, 01:29:40 PM »
My 04A built Van Nuys JL8 Z/28 has a 3932388 block, cast B-25-9 and assembled V0318DZ.

                                     - Warren

They transferred castings between the foundries and the machining operations in order to ensure that the castings were able to be machined in BOTH locations for redundancies in case something happened to one of the machining locations or one of the foundries. There were not that many and very few ended up in a vehicle WE have any interest in.

Guess that makes my car "Double" rare.

                                    - Warren

Danzo

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2021, 01:58:58 PM »
HOT302 - Did you ask the owner about the rear bumper?  Did GM stamp date codes on bumpers?
Very rare according to this:

I think the date code occasionally popped up on some of them - I had the occasion to help a friend with a 7000 mile original '68 SS car, a survivor that was featured in one of Hooper's books because of the frame markings, original Corvette Bronze paint, and extremely low mileage and originality. To make a long story short, my friend proceeded to re-chrome parts of the trim, including front and rear bumpers and the guards through Advanced Plating in Nashville, with the car stored at my house while waiting for a local (and talented) painter to touch up the car. When we removed the rear (and detached the center bracket from the bumper) it exposed a date stamp (impressed) on the back side of the rear bumper, an April '68 stamping (car was a May or very early June car if I remember correctly). First one I had ever witnessed, and unfortunately before cell phone cameras and even my first digital camera came into being, but it was there. Moral of the story - I should have discouraged him from even touching such a low mileage example, but he was really obsessed with a blemish free car. And he eventually got it - before he sold it. True story -

click

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 02:47:04 PM »
I think the CRG comment on the ...388 block as beginning 'mid season' could be slightly off. My 10d build 69 LA car has the original ...388 block. Over the years I've seen many many of the LM1's like mine with the ...388 block as well as many of the Pace cars and replicas and standard Camaros as well. Mine was a 4 bolt main too. I guess I'm not sure what the definition of 'mid season' is? It seems it was a very strong block casting during it's lifetime.
Click is Jim , central Minn.  Moderator at Team Camaro www.camaros.net

KurtS

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 08:06:46 PM »
The word 'season' is not used on the site.
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#BlockCast
Kurt S
CRG

click

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2021, 03:28:11 PM »
 Kurt my error on wording, the site says "mid-69 production"  so that was my question, what is considered "mid production" in the discussion of blocks and when they were introduced? If production began in late August of 68, is my Oct built car considered 'mid production'?  Im just curious if there are actual dates of these various blocks coming online for the Camaros?
 My old original engine is under plastic on a pallet and is being replaced with an LS1 by the guy that bought the car from us. He's keeping the old engine for sure.

Happy New Year Kurt and CRG gang.
Click is Jim , central Minn.  Moderator at Team Camaro www.camaros.net

KurtS

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2021, 12:33:46 AM »
There's tons of running changes and we haven't tried to define the time periods for all of them.
Should for this one....
Kurt S
CRG

william

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2021, 06:41:02 PM »
It's back with a pic of the VIN stamp. Seems they forgot some of it.
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rocco376

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 06:45:24 PM »
Can anyone tell me what the "K450" means on the bottom right of the trim tag on 124379L524035?

Listed on ebay and previously discussed here.


bcmiller

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2021, 07:51:26 PM »
Can anyone tell me what the "K450" means on the bottom right of the trim tag on 124379L524035?

Listed on ebay and previously discussed here.

Itís the body scheduling code. See this link

http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#CowlTag

Body number 450 on the 11th day of the Fisher Body production month calendar. That calendar usually does not match up with a regular calendar.

The letter indicates the approximate day of the month for the start of the assembly of the vehicle body.

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

rocco376

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2021, 08:06:40 PM »
Thank you sir.  Does that mean early build?  I'm used to X33, X77, D80 in that area

bcmiller

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2021, 09:11:32 PM »
Thank you sir.  Does that mean early build?  I'm used to X33, X77, D80 in that area

Build is third week of February 1969 (02C).

No X codes on a VN tag.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

firstgenaddict

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Re: Caveat Emptor...block stamp
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2021, 12:00:29 AM »
I realized I didn't specify something regarding the transfer of castings between the operations.
Any solid lifter small block will have the square plug at the front cam galley - as this feauture is unique to machining at FLINT, even if the block were cast in Tonowanda, the machining operations at flint produced the hole which needed to plugged CONVERSELY If a 618 were cast in Flint - machined and assembled in Tonowanda IT would not have the cam galley plug.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa