Author Topic: 1st 69 Z28  (Read 8653 times)

crossboss

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2020, 05:58:23 PM »
I can tell you from first hand experience Crossboss is right. 27 years in Teir 1 automotive supply and Several times we traveled to the assembly plants and would pick up pre production/production cars for evaluation or to trouble shoot last minute major problems with production parts. I remember specifically in the mid 90's we went to the BMW Spartanburg plant and picked up #23 Z3 roadster in a box trailer. No VIN. No title and was to be crushed/destroyed. It is still waiting for that. As far as the 68 parts. This is entirely the case in Automotive with a new platform launch. Everything is late and or last minute so to get the first production line tooling / testing done you grab what you have and use what will fit for anything missing. There is no magical #1 car start with all correct, all working parts. Those cars have probably had a lot of rework at some point. I work in retail manufacturing now and we run some things down the assembly line 100 times over and over to get the line smooth. Those parts are sold or given away just like the cars were sometimes with no warranty, title or VIN. There is a lot out there. Have an open mind.





Actually, this happens quite often. Some pre-production cars/magazine/test/ cars do get re-sold in the dealer networks. That said, they are supposed to be crushed because of experimental parts/components that were installed. Most notable were some Ford cars. In one case I remember, a car with an pre-production engine was pulled from the last minute (because it was cancelled), yet it was sold on a used car lot. Im confidant this happened among GM/Chevy also. I also have heard rumors that one 1969 Ram-Air V Pontiac Trans-Am survived the crusher and is in private hands. That said, I would also like to see/read any info on the GM photo car in question.




Thanks for the conformation! I can also say from experience when I filmed the testing for Motor Trend, and Hot Rod TV shows, the 'pilot' pre-production cars, some did not have VINs. The paper work would say "Property of General Motors/Ford/ or Chrysler" for example. And all of them had manufactures license plates with a 1 million dollar liability insurance sticker. Now, did some of these cars escape the crusher, sure. Normal procedure was after the testing, we would return them to the manufacturer's outlet. Also, of note, since these care were pre-production prototypes, they all were 'ringers'. What does that mean you say? All were 'tuned' for max performance...aka non realistic numbers on a store bought production car. That is why you see the outstanding ETs, and 'claims' from the manufactures.
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68 Ragtop

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2020, 02:19:16 PM »
I have learned a long time ago not to believe every thing you read in these magazines. Owners tell tall tales to get them in and editors run with it to sell magazines.

The last line of that poster board says it's the first known car with the ZL2 hood. That hood was introduced in December 1968. The first documented car in CRG records with that hood is 12C, December 1968 VIN 569358.

Is there any documentation to back up the owners claim, or is it just a very low VIN?

HOT3O2

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2020, 03:28:18 PM »
Does anybody know Larry Christensen? From the article it seems like hes been around the Camaro world for quite a long time. I would think someone on this site would some insight on this car.
Rick
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GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2020, 05:00:28 PM »
This particular Camaro was purchased in 1992 from a listing in Hemmings and has had multiple owners.  There is no mention of any original paperwork, and I find it hard to believe that Norwood would have built a Z28 with 15 x 6 inch wheels.

KurtS

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2020, 06:55:52 PM »
Lotsa knowledge about the car. It's been discussed before. Can someone post the syc thread about it?
1st Z, used in all those promo pics.
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crossboss

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2020, 07:51:25 PM »
I just received my issue yesterday, and it was a good read. Although I am not a fan of red and white interiors, I found this Z a beautiful car. I am no Camaro expert, so I cannot comment on its build or IF it was the first Z/28 made for 1969. Again, beautiful car!
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GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2020, 12:10:23 AM »
Here is the previous discussion about N500003:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=16768.0

william

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2020, 01:39:19 AM »
I had the opportunity to examine N500003 when D & R Stevie owned it. There is a very good chance that car was never in production at Norwood. Does not appear to have ever had a body tag; no con VIN on top of the cowl. Probably built up by Engineering from a production '68 body structure with some of the first '69 sheet metal off the presses. Had a hand-made dash cluster, hand-stamped 472 intake. Floor pan had the stamped hole with welded reinforcement, not the torch-cut hole seen on production 4-speeds. Bear in mind that it had some restoration work over the years. The 1992 Hemmings ad mentions 'YH 5 rims' which didn't exist until December '68. It was blue when I saw it; saw no trace of orange paint. But probably not painted as production cars were; may have been painted assembled.

It is not the first production anything because it was not a production car. The Motor Trend photo appears in the October '68 issue. Lead time in those days was about 3 months meaning it was a functioning car possibly by late June '68. Norwood produced '68s well into July. 1969 Camaro production commenced on or about August 22, 1968.

Larry Christensen has been around a long time. He may be one of the more knowledgeable guys out there and has done many fine restorations on some of the rarest '69s built. I found the first page of the article a self-aggrandizing attempt to position himself as "Mr. Camaro", apart from all those "arm chair Camaro experts" on the internet. I collaborate on '69s with a number of very knowledgeable people; none of us thinks we know it all. What we do know is there is always more to learn. Larry has chosen to not share his knowledge with the hobby and as a result is not well known. I can't recall the last time anyone mentioned him. Too bad as I'm sure we could have benefitted from his extensive knowledge.

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Jon Mello

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2020, 05:30:02 AM »
I remember when the first 1982 F-Car came off the production line at the GMAD Van Nuys Plant and it was a white Camaro with a V-6 engine.  I didn't look at the VIN plate.  I found an article on the first 1967 Camaro that was built at Norwood and it was also a base model car:

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/the-first-pilot-car-camaro-was-the-start-of-something-big/

Dick Guldstrand had a gold '82 Z28 that I believe he was given for promotional purposes.  I saw it at a show back in 1982 and looked at the serial number on the dash and remember it was serial number 1.  I remember that specifically because it was the first time I ever saw a car with serial number one and I just wasn't expecting it.  I wonder whatever became of the car. Guldstrand had the car in Super Chevy and Hot Rod back in the day competing against other cars.  https://www.thirdgen.org/hotrod-shootout-camaro-july1982/
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JoeC

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2020, 02:01:27 PM »
Sometimes a car would be marked as "scrap" but then sent to a shop to use for parts or a race car build or test car.

not sure how much of this story is true but this 1970 Camaro is said to be a pilot car , then test car , then sat at Smokey Yunick's shop for 20yrs

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0513-154227/1970-chevrolet-camaro/

In his book, Yunick said he was given pre production cars to build his NASCAR Chevelles

HOT3O2

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2020, 03:46:53 PM »
Thanks for the insight William. Much appreciated.
Rick
69 RS/Z28

Kelley W King

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2020, 05:25:25 PM »
I agree with William about it not being a production car. One thing that caught my eye was the trunk sheet metal. I can,t believe that a 68 pan was even on the line following #1 and #2 even if they were not built in order. My thoughts are the biggest question is how did that car get the 003 vin tag? Maybe the real #3 had issues and was crushed leaving a loose tag someone put on a photo car to title it? In the 70,s I worked at a company and we removed "serial tags" from equipment before we crushed them and sent them to headquarters. I remember lines saying "no tag or lost tag" in the manila envelope we sent in.
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GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2020, 09:43:30 PM »
A prior discussion about the first 1970 Camaro produced at the Norwood Plant said it had a 6-cylinder, but when the car was sold at Mecum in 2013, the trim tag shows in is now a 8-cylinder "pilot" vehicle:

https://nastyz28.com/threads/1970-camaro-vin-500001.60516/page-5

william

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2020, 10:40:02 PM »
All smoke & mirrors.

Camaro Corral covered the car when purchased from the Yunick auction. Gutted 6 cylinder body shell. No proof it was ever anything but. Yunick didn't even mention it in his book.
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crossboss

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Re: 1st 69 Z28
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2020, 12:58:40 AM »
Boys,
Please excuse my ignorance to the Chevy build documentation process. My question: Since the Mopar guys have Galen Grovier, and the Ford/Mercury boys have the Kevin Marti reports, are they any sources to confirm Chevy/GM builds? Thanks.
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