Body/cowl tag - is it original

[RogerN]

I am considering purchasing this car. I have done a lot of research to prepare, but I am wondering if those here with experience can tell me if this tag looks original or not. Thanks for any help and/or information!

[x66 714]

Roger. If you have the vin. That would also help....Joe

[RogerN]

124379N618321

[ZLP955]

Upper dash panel (at least) has been replaced during the restoration. Not a reason to look elsewhere, just saying you need to check everything out (including the 2 hidden partial VINs) in person to be sure what you're looking at is as represented.

[RogerN]

How can you tell the upper dash panel has been replaced?  2 hidden partial VINs?

[ZLP955]

How can you tell the upper dash panel has been replaced?  2 hidden partial VINs?

Read this for the partial VIN details: http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN
The VIN plate cutout in the upper dash on many reproduction panels differs from the factory originals in a couple of details.

[william]

The window for the VIN tag on a '69 dash had radiused corners with a rolled edge. The repro dash top is poorly made in that it uses the '68 style VIN window. This is how it should appear.

The larger issue is the VIN tag had to be removed from the dash for the replacement. That means the special rosette rivets GM used to retain the tag are likely gone and common pop rivets used for the replacement. Apparently, some states now check for these rivets while registering cars brought in from out of state. Saw this warning on a car at Mecum Glendale so it may become an issue.

Another potential problem. Was the VIN tag reattached to the body it was removed from? If it wasn't, the hidden VIN stampings won't match. The car may be impounded until the discrepancy is sorted out.

[RogerN]

William - thanks for the reply. Wow... this more complicated than I thought it would be.

So, if a repro dash was installed, would it come with a repro VIN tag (like apparently was done here)? If so, why would the VIN tag need to be removed from the original dash? And where would it be reattached to the car?

Here in Arizona, they have never visually inspected any cars I have purchased in other states. Do they do a visual inspection on cars that are older like this one?

How would the hidden VIN stampings not match the dash VIN tag if the VIN on the repro replacement dash is the same as the original VIN?

Many thanks for the help!

[Sauron327]

A repro dash does not come with a repro VIN tag. The original VIN gets riveted to the repro dash. AMD makes a dash with the rounded corners ifor the VIN hole but the edges are not rolled. The stamping is also not correct and the VIN tag will not locate properly in the hole. I just went through this and had to graft in part of the original VIN hole area into the AMD dash. The repro speaker hole slots are also different from original.

[x66 714]

That's providing the builder used the vin from that car. Shady things happen....Joe

[RogerN]

I get it now... the original VIN tag should (hopefully) stay with the car. It is the window in the dash pad that is the issue. Makes sense that people should not be manufacturing repro/replacement/counterfeit VIN tags.

Well, this is a real education.

[x66 714]

I get it now... the original VIN tag should (hopefully) stay with the car. It is the window in the dash pad that is the issue. Makes sense that people should not be manufacturing repro/replacement/counterfeit VIN tags.

Well, this is a real education.

I told you it would be talking with these guys. They're the best of the best....Joe

[william]

The repro 'dash' is just the top. Has to be spliced into the original dash structure. Virtually always replaced due to rust. It is not legal to reproduce original VIN tags. When the top was replaced, the VIN tag was removed from the original and reinstalled into the repro. At one time it was possible to acquire OE rosette rivets but I believe that has been shut down. The VIN tag shown is an original.

Why would the hidden VINs not match the dash VIN? To clarify, only the last 8 characters of the VIN comprise the hidden VINs. The subject car should have 9N618321 stamped on top of the cowl and under the heater cover. The stamp on top may be visible through the rh cowl vent grille. They don't match when a different body was used to restore the car due to extensive rust or race car modifications. Most of the body snatchers also swap out the hidden VINs; that is often detectable. There are other 'tells'. Not uncommon with high-value Camaros; seen several disclosed rebodies at auction.

Currently two cars on ebay with VIN issues.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28/114242969675?hash=item1a9969604b:g:Ze4AAOSwcv9e0xgC&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Yenko-Style/153949091771?hash=item23d814b7bb:g:8G0AAOSwJVxen~fi&vxp=mtr

[x66 714]

William. Is this car on any of CRGs list? I met Roger at a car show last night & we talked a lot about this car. He doesn't want to make a poor investment...Joe

[william]

No it is not. When I see a repro dash top, I want the cowl grille removed for a good look [top and bottom] at the hidden VIN. If the seller doesn't agree, walk.

BTW AZ does inspect and re-VIN cars. 

[x66 714]

No it is not. When I see a repro dash top, I want the cowl grille removed for a good look [top and bottom] at the hidden VIN. If the seller doesn't agree, walk.

BTW AZ does inspect and re-VIN cars. 

Yes they do...Joe

[william]

Roger, don't allow this discussion to dissuade you. Proceed with caution; speak with AZ DMV about the re-install of the VIN tag. My guess, there was no fraud intended.

BTW this situation is not unique to Camaros or even '60s muscle cars. Porsches, GT40s, vintage race cars, virtually any collectible marque has had problems with altered provenance.

[Sauron327]

At one time it was possible to acquire OE rosette rivets but I believe that has been shut down.

Still can be easily purchased on-line.

[RogerN]

What does it mean that the car is, or is not on the CRG list(s)?

Thank you guys for your help. I feel much better prepared now to examine this car, and I have learned a heckuva lot.

[william]

The CRG has a data base of first-gen Camaro info. Typically VIN, body tag, stampings, build configuration. While much of it is from existing cars, some is from dealership paperwork or old ads; many of those cars no longer exist. It was never intended to be a registry. Owners contributed info on their cars with the understanding it would remain private.

[KurtS]

The dash is a repair part. It's normal/acceptable to replace it.
Most states/inspectors won't check the rivets. More likely they will look at the hidden VINs though. As will many buyers....

[bcmiller]

The dash is a repair part. It's normal/acceptable to replace it.
Most states/inspectors won't check the rivets. More likely they will look at the hidden VINs though. As will many buyers....

Exactly!

Problems arise when a tag or tags are swapped from one body to another. That is a crime.

[william]

I have attended 27 collector car auctions over the past 10 years or so. This is new; the first time I have seen a notification such as this. It tells me auction companies are verifying VIN tag integrity because there have been registration problems. As fraud becomes more common, the scrutiny intensifies.

The VIN tag in the photo is on a car currently for sale. Imagine this car sitting in an impound lot for weeks while your lawyer and DMV sort it out. Then the state slaps their own VIN tag on it.

[bcmiller]

Here is a problem. I have seen more than one VIN tag attached to it’s correct original body by original rivets where one or both are NOT the rosette rivets. That in itself is not an issue.

[william]

Yes; some '67 Camaros are like that.

The Mecum statement is making potential bidders aware of some discrepancy with the VIN tag on that lot. You pays your money and you takes your chances. If there is a problem later on, don't call them.

http://www.superchevy.com/videos/vin-plate-removal-and-replacement/0_jdj79iiy/

[ko-lek-tor]

Just to simplify the discussion. Only 2 reasons to remove a VIN tag off dash on 68-9 Camaro (door jamb 67),
1) to make a repair- dash commonly rusts out.
2) to fraudulently transfer to another body.
1- is not ideal, but acceptable if done correctly(many will go so far as to section in the part of the old dash with VIN, just so there is no question of tampering. There are 2 places on the cowl where a partial sequential vin is stamped for theft/insurance and all 3 should line up as the same sequential number.
2- the vin tag will not match the other 2 stamped numbers and is done as a misrepresenting, fraudulent, when a title does not exist for various reasons or the body the tag came off was destroyed. Tainted not legal or acceptable.

[RogerN]

Thank you all for all the useful information!

Now that I know that at least the body/trim tag is authentic/original, I will make it a priority to check the cowl tag under the air vent on the passenger side to see if it matches the VIN on the dash when I go to see the car in a couple of days. If that looks good, I will go on to the rest of the car.

I now need some additional information and/or opinions. Forgive the long post, I can't think of any way to shorten it.

I talked to the previous owner of this car (he owned it for 6 years) yesterday and he told me the following about this '69 Camaro X33 car:

- When he bought the car (around 2013) it had a 327 engine in it. He shopped around and found all of the parts (used) to replace it with a 302.
   - 350 block (4 bolt mains) from a '70 Impala (dated '69 )
   - GM/Holley carb (rebuilt) for Z28
   - Intake manifold for 302
   - Valve covers (finned) for 302 (not drippers)
   - 302 crank
   - Aftermarket pistons (he thinks they were TRW)
   - Deep groove pulley for crank, none of the others are

- He rebuilt the resulting 302 engine and it was in the car until he sold it.
 .
- The car had front disks but no power steering. He installed power steering from a '70 Impala with new pitman and idler arms.   

- The 4 speed transmission (Muncie I assume) in the car is rebuilt and is from a '69 Corvette.
- He believes the car has a 4.11 rear end. Does not know if its original to the car or not.
- He replaced the front coil springs with the 'correct' Moog springs.
- The car had 5-leaf springs when he got it. He removed two of the springs to improve the ride, so there are now 3 leafs. 
- He does not know if the cowl induction hood on the car is original or not. The car has been repainted to the factory color.
- It has no spoiler on the rear trunk lid.
- It has a '71 steering wheel from Camaro or Impala (or something).
- No panels have been replaced that he knows of.


The current owner bought the car from the previous owner about a year ago. A few months ago the engine broke/blew a valve.

He had the engine rebuilt to what he says are true 302 specs:
- Sleeved cylinders #7 and #2 (apparently scored, etc.) and replaced two pistons.
- Washed and replaced cam bearings and freeze plugs.
- Reman rods
- Ground the crank
- New Z28 solid cam and lifters
- Everything machined/honed as necessary.

He says the shop/mechanic that did it has done many. I talked with the mechanic who seems competent.

The engine was installed in the car and now has less than 100 miles on it. I heard it run on a video. it sounds good.


Well, there is everything I know. From the research of cars for sale that I have done, the car seems to be a good value - unless there are any red flags that I am missing.

What do you guys think?

[william]

I don’t like it one bit. It is a hodgepodge of missing and incorrect parts. Poor resale color.

-aftermarket aluminum radiator
-chrome fender braces
-wrong alternator
-wrong distributor
-incorrect master cylinder
-muffler shop exhaust system
-missing AIR system
-Hood was added

Engine is little more than a NAPA short block and adds nothing to the car. That and the non-OE trans kill the cars’ future desirability and resale. Remember, someday you’re going to want to move it.

This nom Z/28 is many times better with a lower asking price. Still took some time to sell.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28-X77/124188221885?hash=item1cea31e1bd:g:-W0AAOSwK3tevbmS

This view of the chassis shows what looks to be a cobbled up trans crossmember. No idea what that is.

[RogerN]

Yeah, it is not as original as I had hoped. Wish I had seen that one on ebay. It seems like it was a pretty good deal. I guess all it had against it was some rusted panels that needed to be patched, and then a repaint would required I assume. That would mean the price of a paint job I was not counting on ($3-$20k I assume).

Aside from the one I am looking at and this one on ebay, I haven't seen any '69 Z28's (original or not) for less than about $54k. I haven't been watching ebay though, just classiccars.com and autotrader classics and craigslist. Have you seen many Z28's in this price range?

Is the wierd support you are referencing in the pic the tranny support? Could that and the rest of the stuff on this car that is not original be swapped out for the real stuff without too much cost? I actually wouldn't mind doing that if it is cost-effective. I think I can get the car for around $42-$43K.

I kind of like the Mist Green color. I guess it's not the best for resale? I haven't seen that many.

The reason I was looking at this car is because it has no rust and it was what I thought a pretty good price - and it is relatively close to me. I was thinking it was not a bad deal if it at least it had an engine, tranny, etc. that had period-correct date codes even if they were not original.

Can you still actually get the parts to build a 302 (crank, heads, etc.), on a NAPA block?

[rich69rs]

I know you are looking for a Z, which is great.  William mentioned many items in the previous post for you to consider.

How are you planning on using the car?  Investment? Race it? Daily driver? Cruise around town & on the highway? 

I would encourage you to make sure the performance aspects / driving characteristics of the car you are considering are aligned with what you expect to experience from behind the wheel.

If you really want a Z then keep doing your due diligence and stay focused on your goal.  If you are looking for a good cruising ride that will turn heads, you have options beyond a Z.

Just a thought.

Richard

[RogerN]

I just found out yesterday that the car has a 4.10 rear end - I had thought it was a 3.73.

I actually have a '77 Toyota Celica liftback that has a 4.10 rear end (previously it had a 3.53) and I really like it. It runs about 2,000 rpm at 50 mph, of course that is in 5th gear. I think it runs about 2,800 rpm at 50 mph in 4th gear, but I would have to check. It has slightly bigger tires on the rear which I had thought I might do on this car as well, so it compensates for the bigger tires.

This car will rarely (if ever) be driven on the freeway, so I am assuming that the 4.10 rear end will be tolerable, especially if I put some bigger tires on the rear. You may be right - it may be a little too many revs and too much shifting. I will know a little more after I drive the car.

I really appreciate the input and food for thought. It is making me consider some things I hadn't thought of.

I guess the bottom line is that I am looking for a car that is a decent investment, that is within my budget, that I like the look of, and that I like driving. I have always thought the '69 Camaro is my favorite classic car. While I would love an all-original Z that is in fantastic condition, I can't afford it. It seems like I am either going to have to sacrifice originality or condition (rust, etc.), but it doesn't seem like I can afford both on my budget.

[RogerN]

Richard,

The reason I actually started barking up this tree is because I have a chunk of money in the bank that is making basically zero percent interest. I really don't want to be gambling on the stock market at my age, and there seems to be no good place to invest money other than that, so I figured an in-demand classic car may be a good investment - especially if I can get one that I really like - like the '69 Camaro. Hopefully it would still be in demand when I need to sell it (about 25 years I am thinking).

The car would be parked most of the time and just driven in town a few times a month. It won't be raced or be a daily driver. The primary purpose of having the car would be for an investment.

I don't know that I have a strong opinion or desire about the driving/performance characteristics of the car. As long as it drives OK and doesn't break down a lot it should be fine.

What options beyond a Z were you thinking of? I started looking at Z28's because they seem to be more in demand and will be a better investment than the RS/SS etc. The problem is that they are more expensive. I have always liked the '69 Camaros. Were you thinking of different cars?

[william]

With your stated budget, forget about Z/28s. You should easily be able to find a nicely done, turn-key '69 street machine.

Minimum requirements, 350 [or better] sb at least a 4-speed [preferably a 5-speed], 12 bolt, discs all around. Plenty of them out there. Don't buy anything that "...just needs [fill in the blank]".

Remember, cash is King.

[firstgenaddict]

In first generation Camaros
In the mid $50's to mid $60's the best buy is a documented 68 Z28, you may be able to find a 69 Z28 in that range, however you are going to have to know someone OR be extremely knowledgeable yourself, because you must act QUICKLY on deals which come along, because they DO NOT LAST.
 
Example... there was a real 70 Z28 advertised locally 2 weeks ago for 6k. it was rusty but had 5k worth of new parts with the car and the original 12 bolt, along with a M21 and 4 bolt 350 truck engine, ... I passed but it was sold within 2 hours of me looking at it.
In the past few years there have been REAL 69 z's with original engines which have traded in the low 40's in the same time there have literally been THOUSANDS of cars advertised as 69 Z's in the same price range but were fake crap.

Here is a photo I saw a couple of years ago on face book - an original paint, original interior, 69 RS/SS 350 auto AC conv with 26k original miles for under 40k, got the car but keep in mind if the money was not wired within an hour of finding it, the car would have been sold to someone else.

I searched through 18 months worth of posts on LOOMIS Auto's facebook site in order to find a number more photos of the car which illustrated how original it was... including the fact that the original boot cover for the conv top was still SEALED in a plastic bag in the trunk and the BL tag was still on the rear drum indicating 3.36 rear end.

 

[BULLITT65]

 I can't see the pics 

[crossboss]

Boys,
Unfortunately we all know there are more 1969 Z/28's now then were actually made in 1969…aka fakes. When desirability, and value come to play we see this in our hobby. Just like 'fake' GT-350 Shelby's. Buyer beware!

[bcmiller]

Richard,

The reason I actually started barking up this tree is because I have a chunk of money in the bank that is making basically zero percent interest. I really don't want to be gambling on the stock market at my age, and there seems to be no good place to invest money other than that, so I figured an in-demand classic car may be a good investment - especially if I can get one that I really like - like the '69 Camaro. Hopefully it would still be in demand when I need to sell it (about 25 years I am thinking).

The car would be parked most of the time and just driven in town a few times a month. It won't be raced or be a daily driver. The primary purpose of having the car would be for an investment.

I don't know that I have a strong opinion or desire about the driving/performance characteristics of the car. As long as it drives OK and doesn't break down a lot it should be fine.

What options beyond a Z were you thinking of? I started looking at Z28's because they seem to be more in demand and will be a better investment than the RS/SS etc. The problem is that they are more expensive. I have always liked the '69 Camaros. Were you thinking of different cars?

I would NOT recommend a classic car as an investment. Even some people with 40+ years of being around these cars would not recommend it. There are a lot of fake cars out there. And there are “a lot of sharks in the water” waiting for people to overpay for what they are selling.

If you are buying a car, do it because you like the car.

For investment, try real estate. Much better return for your money.

But now is a good time to keep a decent amount of your portfolio in cash.

[x66 714]

The 2 I have were purchased in 1976 & 1981. I didn't buy them for investments...I bought them because I like them & I've kept them all these years for the same reason. I didn't then & still don't care what the market does to them although for those who want a better return, I hope it continues to grow...Joe

[BULLITT65]

I agree with James and Joe. The majority of guys that purchase, do so because they have a passion for the cars. Many people think of classic car as an investment, which it can be, but you really have to be knowledgeable. Myself and others have been fortunate to do well on a purchase, but this is after years (decades) of following he market, and learning about these cars. I don't use cars as my investment, it is just for fun. If it passes for itself along the way, then great, if not I love what I have.
Real estate is a better option.