Author Topic: What is meant by N44 versus Quick ratio (Read 14710 times)

jk1969z28 · « **on:** April 04, 2020, 03:29:02 AM »

So I've been looking all over the place and like the Eagles sang "the more I know the less I understand". From what I've researched, the 1969 Z/28 came standard with "quick ratio" and from what I've learned that meant a longer pitman arm and shorter steering arms, but I don't think that means N44. I am finally coming down the home stretch of restoring my 1969 Z/28, but years ago I knew I would be rebuilding my manual steering box. So I went on eBay and I wanted the "quick ratio" worm gear, figuring that what was meant. So after looking I found a part 5678504, bought it and set it aside.

So fast forward and its time to rebuild my box, really not that hard, but then I was reading on this site that the quick ratio with the special worm gear is not fun to drive, so I got a "normal" worm gear and rebuilt the box with it. However I still did not understand what was meant by N44. So here is what I'm thinking, and please let me know if I'm wrong or since this site has been up for a long time I'm just not seeing it, I've searched this site for the aforementioned part number with no hits that is why I thought I would do some research. Quick ratio was standard on the Z/28 but if you wanted the special gear, part 5678504 that what was meant by N44, at least that is what I'm thinking and it probably didn't get a "special" manual steering box. I've attached pictures of the part and the mention of this part in the parts manual, the gearing is courser versus the "standard worm gear", I held them side by side, sorry I didn't think to take a picture at the time.

There is no mention of N44 in the AIM, N40 means power steering. In Jerry MacNeish's book, and I know its a small sample size, but the only window sticker mentioning N44 is on page 112 and its not a Z/28 but a COPO with manual steering, no N40 option. The one highly optioned Z/28 on page 102 has the N40 power steering option, but no mention of "quick ratio" probably because it was standard on the Z meaning it got the longer pitman and shorter steering arms. So my conclusion, and I'm sure I'm wrong, but here it goes, N44 meant you got a steering box with worm gear 5678504, does that include the longer pitman and shorter steering arms, probably but not sure. Thoughts are more than welcome!!!

Regards,
Jerry K.

adjudimo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2020, 06:07:05 AM »

Have you visited pozziracing.com and looked at his info on Camaro steering linkage? It has tremendous info and pictures including info about N44.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2020, 06:50:21 AM »

I've looked at that site, lots and lots of information. But I never see any discussion about part 5678504 anywhere, not just that site, unless that number changed as the years went by. I think what I'm trying to distinguish is does Quick ratio mean RPO N44? Attached is another picture of the part I have, and what I think makes N44 different from Quick ratio. Also I came across a PDF from GM heritage with all the RPO codes and how they listed them -- N44 Steering, special - not described as quick ratio. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I guess really what I'd like to know is if I have a 1969 Z/28 does my car have the RPO N44 by default, and really I don't think so, I have quick ratio but not N44. If I install that gear then I would have an RPO N44 option.

Jerry K.

adjudimo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2020, 09:32:55 AM »

I've been trying to search and help you but all I found was what you already know. N44 69 Z's pitman arm p/n 3953225 has forging #3953227 but info also states that manual steering boxes used different sector gears inside the gear housing in addition to different length pitman and steering arms. The general consensus is that most had a long pitman and short outward at 5.25 inches. Doing a search even in GM archives, I have not found part number 5678504 other than it simply stating 68/69 Z special steering. Sorry I can't be of more help. Maybe send David Pozzi a PM to see if he could elaborate. That's what I would try.

bertfam · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2020, 04:21:20 PM »

Jerry, N44 is known as a few things. From the factory it was called Special Steering, but over the years it's also been known as Fast Ratio Steering and Quick Ratio Steering. N44 was included with the Z28 so it's not listed on the dealer order form or the window sticker. (Note that REQUIRED options are listed but not INCLUDED options.)

If you look at the Option Index (Sheet A2) page in the AIM, you'll see an asterisk next to N44. This indicates that this option installed the same way as the standard steering, therefore there was no need to duplicate drawings.

Ed

ZLP955 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:50:57 PM »

Quote from: bertfam on April 04, 2020, 04:21:20 PM

N44 was included with the Z28 so it's not listed on the dealer order form or the window sticker. (Note that REQUIRED options are listed but not INCLUDED options.)

Ed that seems to be conflicting with the 'steering' section of the CRG Chassis page, which says:

Quote

A special fast-ratio manual steering gear was used for Z28's with RPO N44. The manual Z28 with N44 used with the same longer pitman arm and shorter steering arm combination as listed above - the steering box is different. Z28's with N44 are very uncommon (and not fun to drive).

bertfam · « **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2020, 10:43:51 PM »

Ok, I may have worded it wrong. Z28 included "Quick Ratio Steering" and apparently, the N44 was "Special Steering, Quick Radio" so I'm assuming a Z28 with N44 was even quicker??

1967 and 1968 was fairly simple, but 1969 was a mess!

Bill is the resident expert on the Z28 steering, especially the 1969, so I'll have to defer to him.

I DO know that my car came with N40 and N44 and is just over 2 turns lock to lock! It took a LOT of time for me to get used to it! You barely move the steering wheel and you're in the next lane!

Ed

70z28lt1 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:01:29 PM »

Not sure if you have access to the "Chassis and Service Overhaul Manual" for 1969, but the 1970 version lists the different steering box ratios along with the overall steering ratios. If the 1969 version is the same, you can maybe tell at least what the difference is for a Z28 and and N44 non-Z28 and see if they are similar. Th 1970 doesn't list the specific option codes, bit it does list the box ratios for standard and Z28 and the power steering ratios. A little deduction and maybe you can come up with the answers.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:16:02 PM »

To add some more information to the discussion. I knew I was going to have to replace my worm gear because my original one was bent, yes this thing was damaged on the driver's side, but worth saving the car, because it had the original 302 and M21!! So I found another subframe and it had a manual box, I took the worm gear from it and rebuilt my original box. Luck would have it I kept the factory gear and was able to find it, I've attached photos of it next to the 5678504 part, ok I might be becoming a hoarder

It's easy to see the difference. So that is why I question the RPO N44 as being part of the Z/28 package, I have the original Pitman arm, 227, need to get the shorter steering arms and taking into account my factory worm gear thus making up the "quick ratio" steering. Though now I'm thinking I might want to put the 5678504 gear in, sounds extremely rare and its an NOS piece. Done Google searches on that part and just getting info on it is sparse much less seeing another one, though like I've said the part might be out there but under another number. Any others with info, I welcome any and all feedback.

Regards,
Jerry K.

HOT3O2 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:21:17 PM »

Is there a way to tell if your car came with the N44 option just by looking at the steering box?

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:38:56 PM »

Hi Rick, Not that I am aware of and have never seen any information about that, if others know and can advise, I will certainly look. The gear on the bottom in my picture is the gear that came with the car. And the gear in it now is exactly the same as that one.

camaronut · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2020, 12:19:32 AM »

The SS350 is the same as the z28 in terms of the N44 option.....as I have been reading...

I see the same 227 cast pitman arm for the manual and power steering...are they both the same used in both applications?

I thought there was some kind of difference between the two....

william · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2020, 01:06:32 AM »

The forgings are the same but machined differently for manual and power steering. Camaro SS did not include N44 steering.

Had to dig a bit to sort this out but I found it in the special '68 Z/28 sales brochure:

"Fast [21.4:1] steering included; extra-fast [17.9:1 - RPO N44 - $15.80] available." The standard manual ratio is 24.8:1.

The January 1970 Car Life did a feature on the Penske Camaros and commented on the 17.9 box:

"The optional 17.9 steering [RPO N44] is used and with the big tires it is horrendously stiff."

camaronut · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2020, 01:35:03 AM »

Quote from: william on April 05, 2020, 01:06:32 AM

The forgings are the same but machined differently for manual and power steering. Camaro SS did not include N44 steering.

Had to dig a bit to sort this out but I found it in the special '68 Z/28 sales brochure:

"Fast [21.4:1] steering included; extra-fast [17.9:1 - RPO N44 - $15.80] available." The standard manual ratio is 24.8:1.

The January 1970 Car Life did a feature on the Penske Camaros and commented on the 17.9 box:

"The optional 17.9 steering [RPO N44] is used and with the big tires it is horrendously stiff."

William, not trying to argue, but this is what I found on this site's Chassis section: (also stated in JMN's Book),

69 Power Steering
All 69's used the same variable ratio power steering gearbox with approximately 2 1/3 turns lock to lock. Z28, L78, and COPO cars had a deep groove pulley on the power steering pump.
- Non-Z28 and non-SS cars with power steering used a 5.25" pitman arm (forging # 3953219) and the longer steering arms (3954873 RH and 3954874 LH).
- Z28, SS, and RPO N44 had a faster overall ratio by using a longer 5.8" pitman arm (forging # 3953227) combined with shorter steering arms (3954875 LH and 3954876 RH).

The 69 idler arm was the same as the 68, 3917581, 5.25" long.

The drag link (a.k.a. center link) for 69 power steering system is 1.125" in diameter, much larger in diameter than the .95" drag link used for manual steering.

This is where I based my question on......just trying to get some clarity on this.....

My 69 SS350 has the shorter steering arms, but the previous owner switched out the steering box long ago, which has the 5.25" attached. So I'm thinking I should get the correct pitman arm...?

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2020, 02:12:03 AM »

I've added some photos of the box itself and the pitman arm. If someone can denote a RPO N44 based on the box, let me (us) know, but I don't think it is determined by the box, at least not on mine. Though if you ordered N44 maybe they have a box which has a mark or stamp that indicated it, but you would think that information would have surfaced after all these years. Note the date stamp, car is a late June car and date stamp is 160 with the 9 indicating 1969. Pitman arm is the longer 227, correct for the 1969 Z/28.

So far I'm starting to think my original thought is correct (so far

), N44 is based on the gearing within the box giving a fast(er) turn ratio when coupled with the 227 pitman and shorter steering arms but not a part of the RPO Z28 package. But that is what makes this hobby fun and interesting, even 50 years on there are riddles that need answers.

KurtS · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2020, 04:52:06 AM »

I thought this was directly answered here:
http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#steer

No way to ID any gearbox externally - it's just a case that different innards could be installed.

william · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2020, 04:14:54 PM »

Quote from: jk1969z28 on April 05, 2020, 02:12:03 AM

So far I'm starting to think my original thought is correct (so far ), N44 is based on the gearing within the box giving a fast(er) turn ratio when coupled with the 227 pitman and shorter steering arms but not a part of the RPO Z28 package. But that is what makes this hobby fun and interesting, even 50 years on there are riddles that need answers.

No.

There are two measures for steering ratio; gear and overall. Power steering was variable ratio, new for ’69.

#1. The standard [exc Z/28] manual steering ratio was 24.8:1 [gear] 28.3:1 [overall]. 4.8 turns L-L. Standard production steering gear, 5.25” pitman arm, long steering arms.

#2. The standard Z/28 manual steering ratio was 24.8:1 [gear] 21.4:1 [overall]. 3.5 turns L-L. Standard production steering gear, 5.75” pitman arm, short steering arms.

#3. The standard [exc Camaro SS and Z/28] power steering ratio was 16.0:1-12.4:1 [gear] 15.5:1-12.8:1 [overall]. 2.16 turns L-L. Standard production power steering gear, 5.25” pitman arm, long steering arms.

#4. The standard Camaro SS and Z/28 power steering ratio was 16.0:1-12.4:1 [gear] 14.5:1-10.8:1 [overall]. 2.06 turns L-L. Standard production power steering gear, 5.75” pitman arm, short steering arms.

2,161 Camaros were built with N44 special steering equipment. What that means is an overall steering ratio faster than standard equipment for the application, not a specific ratio. N44 as a discrete option is rare, only 2,161 orders.

N44 ordered on a manual steering Camaro, exc Z/28: same as #2.

N44 ordered [incl Z/28 & SS] on a power steering Camaro: same as #4.

N44 ordered on a manual steering Z/28: 20:1 [gear] 17.9:1 [overall]. 2.9 turns L-L. Optional steering gear, 5.75” pitman arm, short steering arms.

There were 101,478 Camaros built with manual steering, 141,607 built with power steering. Production numbers indicate 83% of N44 optioned cars were not Z/28s: 1,796.

That means 99.85% of 1969 Camaros were built with standard production steering gears.

camaronut · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2020, 05:25:48 PM »

William... great explanation... now for another zinger...

Were the idler arms all the same??? I would assume it’s different according to the pitman man being used?

Geez... this is giving me a headache.....

william · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2020, 06:44:08 PM »

The 1971 P & A manual only lists one part number: 3989447.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:03:02 PM »

Quote from: william on April 05, 2020, 04:14:54 PM

#2. The standard Z/28 manual steering ratio was 24.8:1 [gear] 21.4:1 [overall]. 3.5 turns L-L. Standard production steering gear, 5.75” pitman arm, short steering arms.
[/quote]

Nice info William!!!

Just so I'm clear -

1. My car, 1969 Z/28 with the manual box and steering gear as shown (standard production) in earlier posts, with the 227 (5.75 inch) pitman arm, and short steering arms did not come ordered or would be considered having RPO N44?

2. If my car HAD come with the other steering gear (part 5678504) and 227 pitman arm and short steering arms then the original buyer ordered it with RPO N44?

If both of the answers above are true, then I believe I am good

Thanks all,
Jerry

rszmjt · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:08:42 PM »

So how can you tell a N44 box out of car?

Thanks
Mike

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:19:29 PM »

Hi Mike, I believe you have to take it apart and compare the worm gear it to the picture I posted, if I'm correct in my assumption, if the gear looks like the top one then it would be an N44, but again it would not be an "N44 box" all the manual boxes are the same.

rszmjt · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:29:34 PM »

Jerry, So no difference on the bench if you count the number of turns of the input to the output?

adjudimo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:31:59 PM »

Quote from: jk1969z28 on April 05, 2020, 09:19:29 PM

Hi Mike, I believe you have to take it apart and compare the worm gear it to the picture I posted, if I'm correct in my assumption, if the gear looks like the top one then it would be an N44, but again it would not be an "N44 box" all the manual boxes are the same.

From everything I have read and the info posted thus far, I am thinking that you are correct. That top worm gear shaft sure appears that it would definitely make the steering super quick lock to lock. As mentioned, probably a little too quick for everyday street use for sure.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2020, 09:35:45 PM »

Mike, You might be able to deduce that from William's post, I would either get it wrong or just confuse the situation :-)

rszmjt · « **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2020, 10:21:13 PM »

Thanks for the reply’s ! Maybe William can clarify his post if the lock to lock was in the car or just the steering box?

William I have Canada docs on a 68 RS/SS 396/375 hp, M22 car with N40 and N44 on GM sheet .

william · « **Reply #26 on:** April 05, 2020, 10:38:14 PM »

I interpret L-L to mean at the steering wheel.

rich69rs · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2020, 10:48:23 PM »

My '69 RS is nothing special, just a lowly plane jane, 210 hp base V8 Coupe with Powerglide and a 2.73:1 open rear end. Great car to cruise around in and get the heads turning but not a performance ride to say the least.

From Mr. Pozzi's website and other postings on this site:

1969 Variable Ratio Power Steering; RPO N40 with Quick Ratio Steering RPO N44:
•   2.06 turns lock to lock
•   Utilized short outer steering arms and long pitman arm
•   16.1:1 on center
•   12.4:1 off center
•   14.3:1 overall over all ratio

OUTER STEERING ARM
Short Arm (Approximate 5.25" length between center of spindle to center of tie rod hole)
•   Left Hand part and casting number 3954875
•   Right Hand part and casting number 3954876

PITMAN ARM:
The pitman arm used for the fast ratio (RPO N44) steering option is approximately 5.8” long.

IDLER ARM
The 1968-69 models used an idler arm which is approximately 5.25" long.

Back in Feb 2004 when I was restoring the front suspension, I came across a surprise. Previously, on multiple occasions while out driving the car, I had noticed / verified that there is just a little over 2 turns of the steering wheel from lock to lock.

During front suspension disassembly and restoration I verified that the pitman arm is approximately 5.8" long and that I had the SHORT OUTER STEERING ARMS. Refer to the pictures. The first two are the left hand side, the last two are the right hand side.

Previously William posted: "2,161 [1969]Camaros were built with N44 special steering equipment....Perhaps half of N44 cars (1,080) were not Z-28."

Well, my poor ol' ride, for whatever reason, appears to be one of the approximately 1,080 non-Z28 1969 Camaros produced with the N40/N44 combination.

Stay Safe,

Richard

william · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2020, 12:11:05 PM »

1. My car, 1969 Z/28 with the manual box and steering gear as shown (standard production) in earlier posts, with the 227 (5.75 inch) pitman arm, and short steering arms did not come ordered or would be considered having RPO N44?

No. It has standard equipment Z/28 steering. Chevrolet was careful not to state N44 was included with Z/28 equipment-just 'quick-ratio' steering. Ordering info for N44 does not state 'exc. Z/28'.

2. If my car HAD come with the other steering gear (part 5678504) and 227 pitman arm and short steering arms then the original buyer ordered it with RPO N44?

Yes. Would have had to be ordered with N44.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2020, 12:26:56 PM »

Almost there I think, TRUE or FALSE - my car as built has "quick-ratio" but is not an N44 car? And that question when we get right down to it, was the main reason for starting this thread :-)

william · « **Reply #30 on:** April 06, 2020, 01:04:08 PM »

Z/28 equipment included 'quick-ratio' steering. N44 was an optional, faster ratio than standard equipment for the application.

If it is not listed on factory documentation, a Z/28 is not considered an N44 car.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 06, 2020, 01:33:02 PM »

William,

Appreciate it and thank you so much, and to everyone else who contributed, I have learned a ton about an issue that, at least to me, was very convoluted and confusing. Now to decide if I want to install the N44 gear or put it in a display case as an interesting piece of Camaro history

Regards,
Jerry

HOT3O2 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 06, 2020, 03:41:10 PM »

Great information everyone. Thanks.

william · « **Reply #33 on:** April 06, 2020, 06:43:25 PM »

Been discussing N44 with Winvoices Paul, who has production #s through Sept '69. Looks like only 17% of N44 installations were for Z/28.

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 06, 2020, 08:28:52 PM »

William,

So if you go with that percentage though the end of production, that would roughly come out to about 360-370 Z/28s for 1969 ( total RPO N44s - 2161 x .17). And from what I've been reading it was not fun to drive so I wonder how many ended up in a ditch.

On a side note, have you, or anyone else, ever seen that part I have - 5678504 (or equivalent if part number was later updated)?

camaronut · « **Reply #35 on:** April 06, 2020, 10:13:06 PM »

Hey jk1969z28,

I wonder what that steering gear is worth.....

I would think that since not many were bought, it would be worth a pretty penny...

blackss69 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 06, 2020, 11:16:47 PM »

I have 2 1969 Camaros. One is a SS 396/375 with N44 steering. I have real window sticker to verify. I also have a SS 350/300 with N44 steering. I purchased both of these cars new. The steering bpxes had AN sticker paper sticker (standard box, with "fine sector"). They both have the long pitman arm and the short steering arms. The SS 396 is a bear to parallel park even with stock F70-14 tires.

HOT3O2 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 06, 2020, 11:30:21 PM »

blackss69, Would it be possible for you to post a pic of that window sticker? I’m sure a lot of us on here would like to see it. Thanks

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 06, 2020, 11:34:23 PM »

blackss69, Sweet, would you recommend putting that N44 gear in or leave it out?

David Pozzi · « **Reply #39 on:** April 07, 2020, 12:01:29 AM »

I just found this thread and will read it all before making any comments. My web page is an attempt to put down what I knew at the time, hoping somone would add more info and make it more correct.

David Pozzi · « **Reply #40 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:12:57 AM »

I think your box casting number is going to be very common for 1969. Probably used by all manual steering gears across GM that use that mounting which is most cars. The stamped number is probably a date code. PS boxes have the date code stamped on the aluminum top cover.
I've wondered about the 69 Z28 special fast ratio steering option. Don't have any good info on it other than what I've read in Magazines. I don't have a 69 Service manual so had to make do with info here and there. I need to look it over again and see if I can improve it. I was trying to come up with what combo of box ratio, pitman arm length and outer steering arm length to create what ratio but the charts I made are just my best guess.

Note the part number of the worm and nut. My guess is that is an older part number as most Camaro parts start with a 7. I think that part was created for an earlier Corvette doing road racing and it fits the Camaro boxes. I just sold a 67 Camaro SS with manual box and it had a very fast box in it. I'm having the new owner see how many turns it is lock to lock but I recall it was around 2.25 to 2.5! It would take some muscle to park it! Many standard manual Camaro boxes are 6 to 7 turns.

The pitman arms were forged with part numbers on them so they broached a large hole for a PS shaft, and a smaller hole for a Manual system. There were long and short pitman arms for both PS and manual but now I don't think you can find a long pitman arm for a manual box unless Rare Parts has one.

The Steering arm part numbers in the parts manual do not always match the forging numbers. Can be a couple of numbers off. I ordered a pair back in 1971 and got the wrong arm by ordering the forging number. One was OK. Arms ending in an odd number are Left had side. Parts ending in an even number are Right Hand side.

67's used the long idler arm. 68/69 used the short idler. I have not seen a long idler arm on a 68 or 69. I think they were around 5.25" long. Replacements by Moog and others are 5.5" long and I think they split the difference between the long and short idler and pitman arm lengths.

TODD · « **Reply #41 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:36:31 AM »

I 've been following along and don't want to muddy the waters but how is the firebird different in that it uses a c shaped pitman arm?
How is that? I drove my uncles 69 Trans Am RAIV back in the day and it had extremely quick power steering?

David Pozzi · « **Reply #42 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:45:28 AM »

Quote from: rich69rs on April 05, 2020, 10:48:23 PM

My '69 RS is nothing special, just a lowly plane jane, 210 hp base V8 Coupe with Powerglide and a 2.73:1 open rear end. Great car to cruise around in and get the heads turning but not a performance ride to say the least.

From Mr. Pozzi's website and other postings on this site:

1969 Variable Ratio Power Steering; RPO N40 with Quick Ratio Steering RPO N44:
•   2.06 turns lock to lock
•   Utilized short outer steering arms and long pitman arm
•   16.1:1 on center
•   12.4:1 off center
•   14.3:1 overall over all ratio

OUTER STEERING ARM
Short Arm (Approximate 5.25" length between center of spindle to center of tie rod hole)
•   Left Hand part and casting number 3954875
•   Right Hand part and casting number 3954876

PITMAN ARM:
The pitman arm used for the fast ratio (RPO N44) steering option is approximately 5.8” long.

IDLER ARM
The 1968-69 models used an idler arm which is approximately 5.25" long.

Back in Feb 2004 when I was restoring the front suspension, I came across a surprise. Previously, on multiple occasions while out driving the car, I had noticed / verified that there is just a little over 2 turns of the steering wheel from lock to lock.

During front suspension disassembly and restoration I verified that the pitman arm is approximately 5.8" long and that I had the SHORT OUTER STEERING ARMS. Refer to the pictures. The first two are the left hand side, the last two are the right hand side.

Previously William posted: "2,161 [1969]Camaros were built with N44 special steering equipment....Perhaps half of N44 cars (1,080) were not Z-28."

Well, my poor ol' ride, for whatever reason, appears to be one of the approximately 1,080 non-Z28 1969 Camaros produced with the N40/N44 combination.

Stay Safe,

Richard

Please verify outer arm length by measuring it from spindle centerline. Looking at your photos the arms look like long arms even though they have what should be short arm forging numbers. I haven't looked at steering arm photos for years so maybe I'm wrong but I would not rely 100% on just those forging numbers. There are long arms with "short" forging numbers.

David Pozzi · « **Reply #43 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:48:16 AM »

Quote from: TODD on April 07, 2020, 04:36:31 AM

I 've been following along and don't want to muddy the waters but how is the firebird different in that it uses a c shaped pitman arm?
How is that? I drove my uncles 69 Trans Am RAIV back in the day and it had extremely quick power steering?

Firebird was pretty much the same as Camaro for 67/68 but in 69 it all changed. The center link has the joints, not the idler and pitman. So the Pitman, Idler, center link, are all different. As far as the steering arms, I don't know for sure, they look similar.
Here's a Firebird steering arm

rich69rs · « **Reply #44 on:** April 07, 2020, 03:36:38 PM »

"Please verify outer arm length by measuring it from spindle centerline. Looking at your photos the arms look like long arms even though they have what should be short arm forging numbers. I haven't looked at steering arm photos for years so maybe I'm wrong but I would not rely 100% on just those forging numbers. There are long arms with "short" forging numbers."

I will verify the measurement sometime in the next few weeks when I get the car out of storage.

Back in 2004, I verified the pitman arm and idler arm lengths but never bothered to verify the outer steering arm lengths because of the following statement from your website which is at the end of the "Steering Arm Part/Forging Numbers" section just prior to the "Pitman Arm" Section:

"Note: Outer steering arms forging numbers ARE the same as the part number."

The only other reference point I have is that steering wheel lock to lock is just over 2 turns.

Other question I would have is how would/could GM/Chevrolet have produced long outer steering arms with the wrong (short outer steering arm) casting/part number?

Richard

blackss69 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 07, 2020, 03:49:28 PM »

Question was raised about N44 steering on SS 396. It is very hard to steer even with F70-14 tires. Parallel parking is hard. On the 396 I would not want the quick steering box unless I had power steering.

With a Z28 it would be fun. Just don't get large tread width tires.

I will attach window sticker in another post. Having problems on size.

blackss69 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:10:33 PM »

Here is the window sticker on the SS 396. It was purchased as a drag race car but was never modified. Still a low mileage original car.

HOT3O2 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:28:48 PM »

Thanks for the pic. Much appreciated. 👍

jk1969z28 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:39:08 PM »

blackss69, Love that car!!! One thing I've found to get a picture that is to large to a manageable size for posting is to pull it up on your screen then hit the SNIPPING tool save that file and it cuts the size without affecting quality.

Dave, thanks for checking in, I know your website is a point of reference for a lot of people.

David Pozzi · « **Reply #49 on:** April 08, 2020, 10:29:25 PM »

Quote from: rich69rs on April 07, 2020, 03:36:38 PM

"Please verify outer arm length by measuring it from spindle centerline. Looking at your photos the arms look like long arms even though they have what should be short arm forging numbers. I haven't looked at steering arm photos for years so maybe I'm wrong but I would not rely 100% on just those forging numbers. There are long arms with "short" forging numbers."

I will verify the measurement sometime in the next few weeks when I get the car out of storage.

Back in 2004, I verified the pitman arm and idler arm lengths but never bothered to verify the outer steering arm lengths because of the following statement from your website which is at the end of the "Steering Arm Part/Forging Numbers" section just prior to the "Pitman Arm" Section:

"Note: Outer steering arms forging numbers ARE the same as the part number."

The only other reference point I have is that steering wheel lock to lock is just over 2 turns.

Other question I would have is how would/could GM/Chevrolet have produced long outer steering arms with the wrong (short outer steering arm) casting/part number?

Richard

I have matched most if not all the part numbers for arms on my page to the factory parts manual so the forging numbers DO match the parts book but I've gotten about two emails, one from a guy who bought arms with those numbers off an ebay seller and when recieved, they were not short arms.
The old story of me not getting the correct part for one arm based on forging numbers could have been the Z/28 arm number was misread by me. I did not bring the actual arm into the dealer, I just copied the numbers. By the way, that was a power steering Camaro.
My buddy checked the 67 Camaro manual steering lock to lock. It's 3.5 turns which is pretty fast for a manual steer Camaro. It's an SS350 4 speed no Air Conditioning and drum brakes.

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Author Topic: What is meant by N44 versus Quick ratio (Read 14710 times)