Author Topic: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans  (Read 3544 times)

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2020, 06:19:37 PM »
One last photo...this is the bellhousing prior to being hot tanked.  The number "39" was written on it, and the car's VIN ends with "39".  Since it was hot tanked, the number is now gone.

KurtS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2020, 03:16:25 PM »
Item "7B3A" says it was supposed to use the same "Underpan" as a PG
The purpose of the AIM is to tell how to assemble the car.
The AIM does *NOT* say that the parts are the same. It says they assemble the same - meaning they are attached with the same general technique. Since the fitment is the same, they don't need to make up another drawing since it has been covered elsewhere in the AIM. Elsewise the AIM would be a set of repetitious drawings. Drawings are not trying to be accurate in the details that don't matter for assembly, i.e. extra holes.
VIN's should be generally applied to all cars, but they definitely missed some. Is the VIN on the engine pad?
Photos - a pic of the torque converter would be great as would a pic of the shield installed showing how the ducting works.
Can you also shoot a picture of the engine pad, the POP, and the starter installed (maybe from below?)
Thanks!
Kurt
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68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2020, 05:59:08 PM »
Kurt, the POP shows the engine pad's number is "F0819BB", the trans number is "A9M18", and the rear-end is "BP0816G".  I have had a couple of other original GM cars from that era that had missing numbers, or incorrect numbers stamped on their POPs (off by a number or letter).  For example, the trans number on this car's POP doesn't have the last letter of the code on the trans pan ("A9M18N").  The POP shows the delivery date as "10/7/68", not Sept. 26th '68 (the day the sales contract was signed).  The car also has its original 37A alternator dated July 17 of '68 and 1-barrel carb.  I will get good photos of all the items you requested, as well as the numbers off the radiator.  The trans shop said it will probably be done next Wed and I'll get the shots while it's sitting on their lift.  I don't know very much about assembly manuals and appreciate the info.  I wanted to ask if you know how many Camaros were built during the last week of August '68, and if that was the first week of production for the '69 model year.  I think it's sad that so few TD-equipped Camaros survived, and that this may be the only '69 left of the 2,186 built.  I'm glad that it will add to the incredible amount of info on your website.

I will definitely be at the Camaro Superfest next year and hope you can make it to see it in person.  Best regards, Alex

KurtS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2020, 02:13:13 AM »
The shift code was often left off the POP. Is the trans A9M13N or A9M18N? Looks like a 3 in the picture.
Warranty starts at delivery, not the sales. ;)
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68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2020, 02:14:40 AM »
I got a call this afternoon from the trans shop that "Cherry" was done and could be picked up...I hadn't expected that as they had told me next Tues or Wed, but thanks to the Chinese Virus killing every business (including auto repair shops), the trans shop had only one job...rebuilding Cherry's tranny.  The rebuilt torque converter arrived yesterday afternoon and the guys had already built the trans and only needed the converter to finish the job.  I took it on a long test drive and it shifts perfectly (as long as the driver isn't lazy and starts out in 1st!).

I took a fair number of photos with Cherry up on the lift...a number I hope Kurt finds satisfactory.  Try as I might I couldn't get decent photos of the radiator and side tanks, so I yanked it out to get some proper shots.  As you can see, the left tank is coded "IH", and the right is "OD" with a month code of "E" for May.  Unfortunately, the radiator tag is missing, but this is not some high dollar Z28 or COPO, so not a big deal.  According to the codes posted on this site, this is a 1968 radiator, but it was put on a very early '69 so I'm guessing that GM used up its leftover '68 radiators on those early '69s.

Note that the torque converter's "scoop" is quite large and allows a large amount of air (and dirt and sand...the bottom of the cover was full of both when the tranny was pulled) past the starter's nose.

I also took a couple of pictures of the rear end.  I'll get Ed (aka "Bert") some good pics of the interior and engine compartment in the next few days. 

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 04:13:55 AM by 68SixBangerRS »

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2020, 02:19:39 AM »
More photos

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2020, 02:24:10 AM »
More photos

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2020, 03:52:05 AM »
Hey Kurt, I just saw your last message about the POP, and I checked it against the number on the trans pan and they are DIFFERENT!  As you can see, the POP has a trans code of "9M18", and the code on the pan is "9M13".  I had looked at both the POP and trans pan several times and had never caught the discrepancy.  I covered Heidi's last name since I haven't asked her if I could post it on here.

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2020, 11:51:37 PM »
Kurt, I took a picture of the VIN pad today and there is NO VIN stamped (the same as the tranny).  So is this a case of the regular VIN stamping guy being sick that day, or that he forgot his reading glasses (or worse, that he was hungover from his liquid lunch at one of Norwood's many bars)?  Or does it point to the start of a new model year being somewhat chaotic (I believe Cherry was possibly built on the 2nd or 3rd day of '69 production)?  Have you seen this before where there was no VIN stamped on either the engine or tranny?  I was told that you would probably want the engine block's casting date...it was "H 168".

I didn't realize that the day or night shift code was customarily left off of POPs.  In addition, in the 40 years that I have been buying classic cars (mostly GMs), I have seen a couple that had one number different than the POP, which is no big deal.  I also didn't know that POPs were filled out on the day of delivery...I had always assumed it was on the day the sales contract was signed.  Thanks for the info!

« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 01:16:00 AM by 68SixBangerRS »

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2020, 08:34:59 PM »
I found a '70 Nova with a 4-cylinder and a Torque Drive tranny for sale on the Internet, and there was a good shot of the engine compartment.  There are no trans cooling lines, so it appears that all TDs were probably air-cooled. 

KurtS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2020, 08:23:36 PM »
The federal law required the partial VIN stampings, but the plants weren't always consistent yet. Yes, some cars are missing them.
The sample size is small, but most 69 L6 cars have the VIN on the pad, but not all.
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68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2020, 01:53:21 AM »
Thanks for the info.  Here is the carb...its number is 7029017BD, and it has a mfr date of 8-9.  According to your carb chart it is for a manual trans car, which makes sense since the TD was essentially a manually shifted automatic and had no kickdown.

BULLITT65

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2020, 02:03:19 AM »
Awesome find. With you history of 6cylinder cars I can think of no better guy for this car to be owned by. The car looks stunningly original, and well preserved. Amazing it was able to dodge being modified for so many years. I know you mentioned the door panels, but has anything else been restored on the car? original paint or vinyl top?

I will be in Indiana for the 4th of July, and thought I would Check on that show. Unfortunately it looks like they have cancelled for this year ... :-\
http://www.camarosuperfest.com/CSF2020Home.asp

Which is bummer since it is still months away. Maybe next year.

Great color combo.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2020, 03:53:31 AM »
Bullitt, nice to hear from you, and thanks for the nice words.  As you know I have been into the oddball 6-banger Camaros for many years.  I found that they were usually owned by women and were lucky to have survived to the present day without a V8 swap.  I really appreciate finding them here and there, which is not very often due the above mentioned reason.  My previous two 6-bangers both had 3-on-the-tree shifters, but their bodies were too far gone to realistically restore them (I would've had $45-50k 6-cylinders, but they would've been NIIICE!).

I go to quite a few shows and there are so many '69 Z28s (no offense to any of you guys on here) that people just walk by them unless they have an unusual color scheme or options.  But the 6-cylinder cars usually attract quite a bit of attention due to their uniqueness and rarity.  So when I found the latest car I jumped on it right away, and I'm glad I did.  I knew it was rare due to its oddball air-cooled transmission, but I didn't think it was possibly THE LAST ONE.  I read through the posts on here and Kurt mentioned that he hadn't seen one in a long time and would like to document one, so "Cherry" is on here now for that purpose.

As near as I can determine, I am the 4th owner.  The first owner, Heidi S. kept it for only 2 years before getting frustrated enough to sell it in 1971 due to no power options and a funky TD trans.  The second owner was a young airman named Ken Dombrowski who was stationed at Scott AFB near Belleville, IL (St. Louis area).  He wrote his name in the back of the owner's manual and documented all of the maintenance he did for the next 2 years (from 17k-29k miles).  He sold it to a fellow airman named Carlos who separated from the service in 1974 and took it back to his hometown of Santa Fe, NM.  When I bought the car there were some State Farm insurance cards with his name and that of his son Miguel in the glovebox.  I found Miguel's phone number on "Familytreenow.com" (an excellent and free website that contains the past addresses and frequently phone numbers of nearly everyone in the US...an awesome resource) and called to ask him about the history of the car.  His dad drove it rather sparingly until around 1980 or '81 when it had transmission issues and Carlos parked it under a carport behind his mother's house (it had around 54k or 55k miles at that time).  Then Carlos and his wife raised 4 kids on his pay as a Santa Fe Public Schools building maintenance man...and the Camaro sat and faded for about 35 years.  Carlos' mother passed away and a decision had to be made on the Camaro, so Carlos' kids paid an auto collision shop in Albuquerque that charged them somewhere around $25k to completely restore it (or more...Miguel didn't want to talk about that...the place I bought it from said somewhere between $25-35K was spent on it).  The trunk floor, floors, rockers, and front fenders appear to be originals, but the quarters were replaced for an unknown reason (drop offs had some rust and probably could've just been patched, but the body shop replaced the entire quarters).  The kids presented it to their dad on Father's Day 2016, but he passed away only 2 years later and the decision was made to sell it to recoup some of the restoration money.

It appears to have all of its original drivetrain components with the exception of the starter.  It has really crappy repop door panels (too puffy and not bright red...they are a washed-out tired-looking red) and rear panels that are going bye-bye very quickly (I am currently leaning towards PUI Premium panels from Heartbeat Jim in Mich).  I ordered a correct red standard steering wheel with an all-red horn shroud from OER (current shroud has a black center and is incorrect) and am just waiting for it to arrive.  The seats are bright red and appear to be as correct as possible.  All of the glass is reproduction garbage and is getting yanked out next week to be replaced with a beautiful tinted complete set (except for the windshield) that I've had sitting in storage spaces for the past 20 years...the front windows say "Astro Ventillation" inside the glass...I believe the set is dated for Oct. '68 (I don't know if the car originally had tinted glass, but it will now).  I believe the original jack is in the trunk and it appears to be a '68 jack with a '69 load rest, but I can't find a date on the jack mast.  I replaced the incorrect Rally wheels that were on the car with a correct set of "FC" coded wheels and NOS PO1 full wheel covers, which is what Heidi said she thought came on it new (she said they were full chrome wheel covers), and she thought it had whitewall tires, but couldn't remember for sure.  I had an NOS Firestone Deluxe Champion F78-14 whitewall that I found at Hershey 15 or so years ago, and it is now on one of the original FC wheels and in the trunk.  The car had repop taillight lenses and parking lights lenses that are now replaced with nice originals that I had been saving for a car like this, and I put an original driver's side mirror dated 9-68 to replace the repop one.  The repop wiper arms are going to be replaced with a nice original set I have with NOS Trico blades.  The dash is painted gloss red which is incorrect and that will be properly done maybe next year.  I will also try to adjust the fenders to get better gaps (gaps are currently pretty bad).  I also have an NOS GM 6-cylinder muffler that will replace the incorrect Walker-made one on it now (not the correct exterior dimensions).  My best parts find by-far was locating an original NOS Hefner Chevrolet metal dealer trunk emblem on Ebay (the seller had a few and I bought 2).  I still have the original dealer emblem...badly beat-up from 45-plus years of exposure to the elements.  I am looking for original bright red windlacing and red seat backs if anyone has those things laying around.  Cherry will never get driven a lot of miles, but she will also not be trailered around...she is a wonderful little driver with the sounds and feel of a 6-cylinder Nova (and fantastic gas mileage!).  She still has drum brakes all around and seems to stop just fine...no disks in her future.  The odometer currently shows 56k miles and I believe that is correct.

The color scheme is off the charts beautiful, and it looks the same as one or two early '69s that GM used in the sales brochure and early ads (Super Sports).  The red interior with the red and white exterior make it a very eye-catching ride (but at this point in time, even a Frost Green '69 would attract just as much attention).  I think a 6-cylinder Camaro with this color scheme is highly unusual, and I think it is extremely odd that Hefner Chevrolet ordered this car with a 6-cylinder for their first '69 Camaro, but I think they may have done that to keep the window sticker price low to attract buyers (but they had to also know that their first '69 Camaro was going to sell immediately, regardless of how it was equipped).  The POP's option line is blank, so she was ordered without a radio or power options (thus keeping the sticker price low).  I found a Hugger Orange '69 base coupe a few years ago on Craigslist in NC and almost bought it (it was virtually a twin of Cherry).  It had a white vinyl top, white hockey stripe, tinted glass, standard FC coded black wheels (showing it came with full hubcaps), white standard interior, 250 6-cylinder, 3-speed floor-shifted manual (I had a complete 3-on-the-tree setup I planned to swap in just for the weird factor at car shows), no PS or PB, and a lot of rust.  But at that time it was the most colorful '69 6-banger Camaro I had ever seen and I felt it was worth a ground-up restoration (I don't really care much about sinking "foolish" money into the right 6-cylinder...that was this orange car).  I also recall it was built in the first week of Sept. '68, so I think it may have been a showroom car like mine.  Unfortunately, the wife at that time liked to spend my money on stuff she wanted and not stuff I wanted, and some foot-dragging on my part because of the wife caused it to get away.  The seller told me it went to a guy who intended to swap a V8 into it...sadness.  So when Cherry came along, I worked out the financials without bringing the current wife into the negotiations (it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission...every time!), and she is just as beautiful as the orange rust bucket was when it was new (and even rarer with her TD tranny). 

I will continue to post stuff on here that pertains to the oddball 6-bangers.  I noticed that in the approximately 4 years that I was off here that there were not a lot of posts regarding 6s.  Someone has to carry the torch, right?

I am attaching a couple of photos of the orange rust bucket...crazy rare for a 6-cylinder, don't you think? 

PS...Bullitt, next time you're close to Indy give me a call and I'll drive over to Richmond and we can have some coffee or a beer.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 05:49:18 AM by 68SixBangerRS »

68SixBangerRS

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Re: '69 coupe with a 6-cylinder and a torque Drive air-cooled trans
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2020, 05:58:15 AM »
These are the GM promotional photos I spoke of.  I now realize this is probably the same car used for both ads, but the bumper went from chrome to Endura in the 2nd ad.  There is no antenna on either car, and they also appear to have the same type of RWL tires with very small sidewall lettering.