CE Block Documentation

[COPOZ/28]

Hi All,

As a newer member of CRG I've been reading a number of CRG posts these last few weeks to get familiar with the forum and the depth of knowledge many forum members have and I have to say I am very impressed with the content on this site and the professionalism of everyone.  I'm hoping there's someone in the forum who can provide some help regarding the CE block in my car.

Some years back, I sent the intake manifold from my '69 Z to Jerry M to weld/repair the right rear corner that had a collapsed bolt hole, which he did beautifully -- the repair matches the surrounding casting perfectly.  In that correspondence with Jerry I mentioned the 1st owner of the car had the block/fitted pistons replaced under warranty in 1970 due to a loose wrist pin retainer scoring a bore.  I also mentioned that the 1st owner did not save a copy of that warranty repair order (WRO) even though he saved almost everything else in the 10 years he owned the car.  I am the 2nd owner, having purchased the car in 1979.  Compounding the "originality/documentation" issue with my car, the 1st owner decked the replacement block shortly after getting the car back from the dealer in 1970 to prep the engine for amateur drag racing, thereby removing the CE stamping.  I mentioned to Jerry that I had managed to successfully contact an attorney in Chevrolet's Office of the General Counsel in 1980 and inquired about receiving a copy of that specific WRO and why it was important to me.  The attorney assured me that the WRO in question is definitely in Chevrolet's microfilm records but corporate policy prohibits him from printing and sending me a copy of it.  My offer to treat him and his wife/S.O. to dinner at any Detroit area restaurant of his choice was to no avail.  Jerry, having heard all this, suggested I look for a block with a casting date code that precedes my 0513 engine build date.

So, here I am today, not having pursued Jerry's suggestion.  Instead, the only "documentation" so to speak that I have is a signed and notarized letter from the 1st owner stating the block was replaced under warranty in 1970 and that a copy of the WRO paperwork was not saved by him.  The casting date on my replacement '010 block is D-14-0, 11 months after the original engine's build date. Ethically, if I had my 1st choice, I would prefer to have a copy of that WRO in hand as that would represent what the world of Chevrolet/Dealer did to the car, but it would appear that is impossible to obtain, unless Chevrolet is more willing these days to accommodate enthusiasts/collectors.  This is opposed to finding a representative casting date block and having someone take that block that has no meaning or relationship to my car and "create" what would appear to be the original CE block stamping or even the "born with" block stampings and then transferring my original engine parts to it.

Other than sympathizing with my situation (which would be appreciated nonetheless), is there any wisdom/advice anyone of you might share with me?  Has anyone had success contacting Chevrolet and obtaining a WRO or other such records?

Thanks,
Chuck

[69Z28-RS]

You're most likely SOL in getting any documentation after all this time, but you might try the dealer that did it?

Otherwise, if the engine data,configuration and performances matches up to what the original CE engine should have been, and it matches what you were 'told' by the original owner, then leave it as is and document the 'story' as best you know it, referencing the prior owners statements.   I've had to do that myself for a '69 Corvette that the 350/350 short block was blown/replaced within 2 weeks of 'new'...

[ko-lek-tor]

Not able to add anything to the documentation question, but some proof of your block being, indeed, a CE block can be found on the mating surface of the starter. There, you may be able to find a stamping of a build date? Not sure if this would be on a fitted block? Chances are, the 1st owner may be mistaken what was replaced. Look for this stamped date, and there you will find proof that it is, as claimed, a CE replacement.

[ZLP955]

Welcome Chuck. I'd just run with the block you have, and enjoy relating the story that the original owner passed on. If only our cars could tell us their past!

[COPOZ/28]

Thanks to those who have provided their helpful comments.

Was not aware a date code stamp appears on the starter mounting surface of CE blocks.  If such a date is on my block's starter mounting surface, it would prove it is a CE block, as ko-lek-tor mentioned.  Is the opposite also true?  Meaning if there is no such date stamping then the block cannot be a CE block?

To answer 69Z28-RS, I did contact the selling/servicing dealer (Snyder Chevrolet, Napolean OH) back in 1980 and spoke to their Service Mgr about my missing WRO paperwork.  It was a brief conversation -- he said there was no way the dealership saved their copies of WRO's beyond just a few years, let alone 8 or 10.

[bcmiller]

The stamped information down by the starter mounting area would be a good sign. But those could have also been stamped there later by someone else.

I know you want rick solid proof, but after 50 years it is difficult.

As others have stated, just keep all the information you have collected for documentation.

CE blocks are not rare.

[COPOZ/28]

All very sage advice -- thanks!  I had resigned myself to not obtaining that block replacement WRO back in 1980.  But when I just recently discovered the CRG forum and began reading all of the incredible research material posted on it, my hopes were once again raised that Chevrolet might have "opened their files" for the enthusiasts and older production and service records were obtainable, somewhat like the kinds of information the Pontiac Division provides for owners of older Pontiacs.  Oh well, maybe someday.  But yes, I have thoroughly enjoyed the car since '79 and have changed the rear gear several times before, once again, settling on the original 4.88 ratio my car was born with.  The one change I have no regrets over making was the addition of a 5-spd O.D. about 6 years ago.  The box I chose was the then brand new SS-700 that Kiesler was marketing, with the internals produced by Legend Gear and Trans.  I have serial #200 unit, which fits like a glove in the tunnel -- no mod's to either the tunnel shape or shifter cutout were required to fit it.  This box has a 2.66 1st gear and an 0.69 5th.  With my 4.88's, I usually am shifting into 3rd before crossing the intersection but I can actually drive my car on the freeway!  I've fitted temp sensors in both the trans and rear diff that feed a single Autometer temp gauge through a DPST switch to keep an eye on gear lube temps at speed.

Has there been any research completed that either estimates or documents the number of 1st Gen Z/28's ordered/built under the 9511 COPO with the 4.56 and 4.88 ratios?  Or is this a question I should ask in a new posting?

[ZLP955]

There's no figures listed on the CRG Options spreadsheet (via http://www.camaros.org/options.shtml#RPOSpreadsheet) for production numbers of 4.56 or 4.88 ratio rears under G84/COPO 9511. The 4.10 ratio, also under G84, shows a quantity of 8,018. Would imagine the steeper ratios would have much lower demand than the 4.10, but JMHO; maybe one of the core CRG members has an estimate of usage?

[69Z28-RS]

I don't recall seeing ANY early Z28s with 4.56 or 4.88 gearing from the factory, but I had an air force buddy who had a '69 Z28 like Chuck B. (same yellow and black) who went one step at a time from the 3.73 to 4.11 to 4.56 to 4.88 to 5.13 and finally to 5.38 before he gave up on beating *everyone* on the street! 

[COPOZ/28]

Jerry MacNeish also has an original 4.88 Z car --  it's a '68 IIRC.