68 Camaro 6 cyl to BBC conversion

[warnergn]

Hi all.  Long story short, I was sold a car that was described to be a BBC 427 Camaro but after closer inspection I believe I was taken to the cleaners.  Too much time has gone by now to do anything about it.  But, I am just moving forward and planning to now make it what it had been claimed to be.  I have some questions though.  How much is involved in switching over an auto 6 cyl Camaro (thinking worst case scenario for reasons later to be described) to a BBC with 4 spd? 

Negatives:  I've found the rear to be non-posi, it has drum brakes front and rear, no trim tag, and the VIN appears to be altered from a 123367 to a 124367.  Also, there is no tach but there is a console with no gauges. 

Positives:  The body is in nice shape, it has a BB with factory manifolds, a Muncie M21, houndstooth interior, RS headlights and backup lights, Z hood, new tires and Ralley wheels all around, new exhaust, and all new trim.

While trying to get the car inspected it was discovered that the engine was never bolted to the chassis - both sets of mounts are there on the frame and the engine - they just stuck the bolt through and called it a day.  Also, the Hurst shifter is short and makes for a reach to shift to 1st and 3rd.

Right now I am debating whether to remove the engine so that I can verify whether or not it is a 427 or a 396 - the numbers have been ground off of the pad on the front of the engine.  The intake is also a no-name alum intake or all identification was ground off of it as well.  The carb that came with the car was an old dirty Edelbrock 1404 - I have since installed a new one (1406) but if this is indeed a 427 I'm thinking I should have sprung for a 750 Edelbrock (due to the "4-hole" configuration).  The distributor is a GM 10093387 heavy duty unit mated to an older MSD box (not even a 6AL).  I have already replaced the shocks all around, added a fuel pressure regulator, a complete rear wiring harness for an RS, new plug wires, just bought a GM HEI but haven't installed it yet, and new console gauge package with Tic-Toc-Tach.  I also bought a 8.5 10-bolt posi rear for it - have 3.55 gears to install.  The clutch rod is extremely loose and has actually fallen out a time or two (in the garage, not while driving) - which has me wondering if the Z bar is correct for the BBC or if the mounting holes on the frame are wrong (remember I'm not sure if this was a 6 cyl or a SBC car to start) - after doing some reading I understand that the correct Z bar would need to be in place for the clutch to work properly/safely - the clutch rod is adjusted out as far as it can go.

All this to say:  Does anyone have any pointers or experience converting from a 6 cyl or SBC to a BBC?  I don't intend to ever sell this car or claim that it started out as a BBC car with all the bells and whistles - I just want to drive the dang thing and make it into what I thought I was buying.  Does the under dash wiring harness need to be swapped out to mate up to the wiring harness that came with the new gauges and tach?

Thanks for any and all thoughts, suggestions, criticism.
Greg

[bertfam]

Greg, it appears you have a huge can of worms. Swapping engines isn't a big deal, but you need the right parts. IF you already have the big block mounts, than all you need to do it just bolt them in. If not, they're available reproduction. The numbers may have been machined off the front pad, but what about the casting number on the block itself? If that's still there, it may help narrow it down to what it is.

Installing gauges requires the correct wiring harness, but an "adapter" harness is available aftermarket to add them to cars that didn't come with them in the first place.

I'm not going to get into the legalities of tampering with a VIN (a Federal offense), but I highly recommend you contact your local authorities to have them inspect the car. Hopefully, it's not stolen.

Ed

[z28z11]

Greg,

I agree with Ed - multitude of things going on with this car, check the VIN in the other locations on the car against the VIN tag, and see if they agree with the (altered?) VIN, that should tell you what the car is VIN'd for. If it is different, call the law into play. Hateful to see someone taken advantage of -

Ditto on Ed's statement about the engine mounts, make sure you have the appropriate big block crossmember, and the right Z bar clutch linkage - SB and BB are different. All of this is available as reproduction - 

Change the Hurst handle on the shifter, if it's a Competition Plus aftermarket shifter, the handle bolts on. Replace it with a Hurst standard shift handle with the right length - eBay stuff.

By the way, is this a '67 or '68 ? You mentioned '68, then stated a '67 VIN. Post pics of the block casting number, and heads, we can likely figure out the displacement.

Regards,
Steve

[ko-lek-tor]

You may be questioning now your Z bar and engine frame stands. The difference in a bbc z bar and the other(sb & 6 cyl) is a 1/2”. Bbc 9 1/2” sbc & 6 =9” . If you have a 9 1/2” (you can measure that in the car), most probably then, the frame stands will be correct. So you can figure that out pretty quick. Is the z bar coming out of position or is it that the adjusting rod is falling out of the clutch fork? Could be an adjustment or wear issue. If you tell us where you live , perhaps a knowledgable member could evaluate you car and the issues you have.
Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to this informative site.

[warnergn]

Greg, it appears you have a huge can of worms. Swapping engines isn't a big deal, but you need the right parts. IF you already have the big block mounts, than all you need to do it just bolt them in. If not, they're available reproduction. The numbers may have been machined off the front pad, but what about the casting number on the block itself? If that's still there, it may help narrow it down to what it is.

Installing gauges requires the correct wiring harness, but an "adapter" harness is available aftermarket to add them to cars that didn't come with them in the first place.

I'm not going to get into the legalities of tampering with a VIN (a Federal offense), but I highly recommend you contact your local authorities to have them inspect the car. Hopefully, it's not stolen.

Ed

Yes, can of worms is correct.  I tried maneuvering the block into the brackets without success.  The power steering unit is against the exhaust manifold and I was thinking that maybe the Z bar is holding it up as well.  I'll check the numbers on the back of the block tonight.
I'll likely be picking up whatever harnesses and adapters are necessary for a cleaner installation.
I didn't really take notice to the VIN until I looked closer - I will try to attach a pic but so far every time I try to add a picture it turns out to be too large to download.
Thanks, for your thoughts...............oh, and I completely misprinted the VIN - it's 124378, not 124367...............sorry about that.

[warnergn]

Greg,

I agree with Ed - multitude of things going on with this car, check the VIN in the other locations on the car against the VIN tag, and see if they agree with the (altered?) VIN, that should tell you what the car is VIN'd for. If it is different, call the law into play. Hateful to see someone taken advantage of -

Ditto on Ed's statement about the engine mounts, make sure you have the appropriate big block crossmember, and the right Z bar clutch linkage - SB and BB are different. All of this is available as reproduction - 

Change the Hurst handle on the shifter, if it's a Competition Plus aftermarket shifter, the handle bolts on. Replace it with a Hurst standard shift handle with the right length - eBay stuff.

By the way, is this a '67 or '68 ? You mentioned '68, then stated a '67 VIN. Post pics of the block casting number, and heads, we can likely figure out the displacement.

Regards,
Steve

Hi Steve,
Yes, I'll be checking other VIN locations to verify this.
I believe the engine mounts are correct but I'll try to verify that as well as the Z-bar clutch linkage.  I wasn't aware that the cross member was different - I actually unbolted it at the transmission and loosened all 4 of the side bolts in order to move the engine into the mounts.
I did mess up the VIN, sheesh!  It's 124378, not 124367.
Thanks!

[warnergn]

You may be questioning now your Z bar and engine frame stands. The difference in a bbc z bar and the other(sb & 6 cyl) is a 1/2”. Bbc 9 1/2” sbc & 6 =9” . If you have a 9 1/2” (you can measure that in the car), most probably then, the frame stands will be correct. So you can figure that out pretty quick. Is the z bar coming out of position or is it that the adjusting rod is falling out of the clutch fork? Could be an adjustment or wear issue. If you tell us where you live , perhaps a knowledgable member could evaluate you car and the issues you have.
Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to this informative site.

I will try to measure the Z bar - it's awful tight and will be tough to measure but I'll give it a try.  I don't think the Z bar is moving, but the adjusting rod falls out of the clutch fork.  I looked for longer ones but that's not the true fix.  I need to make the one I have work properly rather than "bandaiding" it.
I live in the southcentral PA area.  I owned a 69 RS/SS 4-spd for nearly 30 years before (unfortunately) selling it.
Anyway, I look forward to this site's help and wealth of knowledge.

Greg

[z28z11]

Greg,

I forgot to welcome you to the site - you'll find just about every topic you can imagine on here, sure does answer a lot of questions to most owners and enthusiasts. I just thought I knew a lot about first gen Camaros until I joined the CRG. Learn everyday -

Do yourself a favor - download Light Image Resizer from the net (free for the first 100 picture resizings). Easy to use, it will resize to what you need to post with just a few keystrokes. I've utilized it a lot in the past before I broke down and bought a newer iPhone that allows me to size the pic when I'm sending it to file.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Wrong frame mounts will cause a host of problems, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were 6 or SB mounts considering the pinch on the steering box. Remember to add the spring to the Z bar (which is also different big to small block). Host of vendors to buy from, you'll find most of them mentioned here in multiple threads. 

Regards,
Steve

[warnergn]

OK, I think I finally figured out how to post a pic of the partial VIN here.  Let me know if you think it is legit or altered.

Thanks,
Greg

[cook_dw]

altered.

[warnergn]

altered.

Seems like this car is marked for life then.  Do you know that this car was actually appraised and this wasn't picked up, nor the missing trim tag, the engine not bolted down, non-posi, non-working brake lights or back up lights, etc.

Sheesh!  What to do, what to do. 

Greg

[Kelley W King]

hopefully you did not pay the price for a proper BB 68.

[bertfam]

Yes, the VIN appears to have been messed with (the 4 is really funky), but I don't see any remnants of a 3 under it, so I'm not so sure it's NOT an original V8 car. What's the complete VIN? Can you email me a better high resolution picture of the VIN? My email address is in my signature below.

Ed

[bcmiller]

Who appraised the car? I would like to see the report. And I can recommend an attorney for the situation you are caught up in.

This car had a 10 bolt rear end? All SS cars in 68 had a 12 bolt rear end.

Trim tag missing?

1968 differences at this link.
http://www.camaros.org/diffs68.shtml

[bcmiller]

What VIN is on the title?

[bertfam]

I recommend you contact BRIAN SHOOK. There's no such thing as "too much time gone by" when it comes to VIN tampering.

Ed

[warnergn]

hopefully you did not pay the price for a proper BB 68.

uuuuhhhhhh.   

Greg

[warnergn]

Yes, the VIN appears to have been messed with (the 4 is really funky), but I don't see any remnants of a 3 under it, so I'm not so sure it's NOT an original V8 car. What's the complete VIN? Can you email me a better high resolution picture of the VIN? My email address is in my signature below.

Ed

Just sent the full VIN via email.

Thanks for looking!
Greg

[warnergn]

What VIN is on the title?

Same VIN on the title as stated.  Can only see the previous 2 owners (one being the dealer I bought the car from).

Greg

[warnergn]

Who appraised the car? I would like to see the report. And I can recommend an attorney for the situation you are caught up in.

This car had a 10 bolt rear end? All SS cars in 68 had a 12 bolt rear end.

Trim tag missing?

1968 differences at this link.
http://www.camaros.org/diffs68.shtml

You would likely laugh at the appraisal report after seeing it.  Have you ever seen eyes that look like pinwheels spinning in cartoons...........I think that's what happened to me when I saw this car for the first time.     
Yep, trim tag missing.  10-bolt one-legger seems legit except I can't make out the numbers stamped on it..........it's coming out soon anyway and going to be replaced with a '74 Nova 8.5 10-bolt posi with 3.55s.  The 5-leaf rear springs aren't very arched anymore leading me to believe they too are original.
I'm feeling a little better about the car being at least a V8 now after going to the link you provided.

Thanks,
Greg

[bertfam]

No, I didn't say it WAS a V8 car. Only that I wasn't sure it didn't start out that way. However, after looking at the better picture you sent me, I'd say it started life as a 6 banger. The VIN has been off the car, flattened, stamped with the 4 and then reinstalled incorrectly. As I sated above, contact Brian.

Ed

[bcmiller]

If the car was represented incorrectly, you can take legal action.

Brian S. is the person to talk to as Ed posted. Depending on location and timeline, you can have a reputable person inspect the car. It would be worth it.

[bertfam]

One of the guys suggested that you run the VIN (123378N457480) through the NCRS and see what they come up with. If they can't find it, then have them try 124378N457480.

Ed

[warnergn]

I really appreciate everyone's help here.  I went ahead and contacted Brian S.  We'll see what happens.

Thanks again!
Greg

[warnergn]

Minor update since we last communed:  Tried to locate the "easy" hidden VIN but found nothing.  Was in the process of removing the heater core cover but inner fender not coming out on its own.  Intend to remove the fender now but found that the fender has been welded to the lower part of the body.  I'll continue when I get some help removing the hood and figure out a way to use my Sawzall to cut the weld and not damage the fender.

Is there a way to remove the VIN that's under the cowl?  Or do some not come with the VIN at this location?

thanks,
Greg

[bertfam]

The partial VIN under the cowl should be easy to see. Just look through the slats. However, the hidden VIN's won't help determine if the car started life as a V8 or a 6 banger since it doesn't include the model designation (12437 or 12337).

Ed

[warnergn]

The partial VIN under the cowl should be easy to see. Just look through the slats. However, the hidden VIN's won't help determine if the car started life as a V8 or a 6 banger since it doesn't include the model designation (12437 or 12337).

Ed

I removed the cowl and took pics - not a trace of any numbers.  True about the 6 vs 8 designation.  I just gots to know if the last 6 numbers even match at this point.

Greg

[Tinkerr]

They may have put body filler over the Vin on the cowl. Take a small mirror and get a look at the bottom side of the cowl may be able to locate it that way, if it's still there.

[z28z11]

Imperative you look under the heater box for the partial VIN, in my estimation. Filling the VIN partial on top of the cowl is another warning sign to me - if you're welding fenders on to the body for any reason, the owner or shop that built(?) this car won't be too concerned about the finish under the cowl vent. Maybe a grafted cowl onto another body ? I've seen that done before, or at least attempted to be accomplished. It's a shame we have people like that associated with the hobby, but as you'll note on this site there's a lot of ways to determine what's real and what's not -

Just my opinion -
 
Regards,
Steve