Author Topic: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold  (Read 6953 times)

ace

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downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« on: February 21, 2019, 07:38:54 PM »
Hello CRG members:

Planning to return my 69 coupe to a transverse exhaust system.  The engine -an L48 - has stock exhaust manifolds (part nos. 3932376 and 3942529).  Current downpipe/intermediate pipe measures 2".  I would like to purchase a 2.25" system that came with the 69 Z28's.  So here are my questions:
Will a 2.25 inch system designed for Z-28's mate up with the stock exhaust manifolds on a 350 c.i. engine?  The point of concern is that the heat-riser valve advertised for 69 exhaust manifolds seem to come only with a diameter of 2 inches.  Did the 302 c.i engine  use a larger diameter (2.25 inch) heat-riser valve than the 350 c.i. used?

Thanks for the input

Ace


william

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 08:03:38 PM »
All '69 N10 dual exhaust systems are basically the same; big-blocks had different head pipes. One notable difference was the interim Z/28 system after the chambered recall-no resonators and the deep-tone muffler from '68. Around mid-April, Z/28s received the same muffler/resonator system as the others. As of May 19, chromed tailpipes were added.

Small-blocks used the same heat riser, 3887023.
Learning more and more about less and less...

crossboss

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 10:07:55 PM »
You may want to look into Magnaflow's  'Muscle Car' exhaust systems. They are a nice stainless mandrel bent set up. I believe the cost is around $495, and Summit usually stocks it.
Just another T/A fanatic. Current lifelong projects:
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1969 Mustang Fastback w a Can-Am 494 (Boss 429)

ace

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2019, 02:10:30 AM »
WilliamL-48

Thanks for the help.  The Z-28 and the 350L-48 exhaust manifolds appear to have the same specs.  The only difference is in the part numbers for 1969.  The Z-28 with smog air injector tubes are essentially the same manifold as a 350 L-48 without the air tube holes.

Still not clear how a 2.25 pipe system can mate up to a 2" heat-riser, unless the 2.25 inch system uses a 2" downpipe.  In any case, I will be looking into the 2.25 inch system sold by on-line vendors like D and R, Rick's Camaro,  Camaro Central, Shaper Classic Renovations etc. 

Crossboss, thanks too for the tip on the Magnaflow with Summit.  Reviews were very positive.  Price is $804 at summit for the 409 stainless with 2.5 inch pipes.  The Magnaflow muffler (#12468) is an transverse muffler that incorporates and X pipe.  Pretty cool.

Ace



X33RS

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2019, 02:09:16 PM »
Nice to see Magnaflow came out with a transverse system.

You have 2 other options, both that I've used.

The cheapest kit is made by dynomax, their thrush 89021 kit that is $260 at Summit.  It's a regular steel exhaust with an aluminized coating.  Nice mellow sound.  Only down side is they don't offer down pipes that I've seen if you are running manifolds.

The other is from Pypes.  I've used this one a lot.  It's stainless steel, and the cheapest stainless kit I've seen.  SGF70 is for all F-body 1st and 2nd gen transverse setups.  Right now Summit is having a sale on it for $550.  Pypes also sells mandrel bent down pypes separately to work with exhaust manifolds to complete the systems if you don't run headers.

I run 3 of these systems, a little more aggressive sounding than the dynomax but still very tolerable and nice for cruising with no drone.

Here's a quick sound clip of this system on my Z.  I grafted in the factory tailpipes for a stock appearance, which also helped to subdue the sound level just a touch.

Idle
https://youtu.be/IZ0HlEY7b74

Cruise
https://youtu.be/7a3lMwoM-7c   

janobyte

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2019, 04:55:38 PM »
Yes,2" valve to 2.25" downpipes on my Z's original exhaust. Seals via gasket.

Are you looking for an OE appearing, or performance transverse system?
Gardener for concourse quality, I believe D&R for a good system.
Personally,I don't see the benefits of a 2.5" performance exhaust behind a
a mild smallblock with exhaust manifolds.Street duty, under 4600 rpm, I think a nice replica 2.25 will do you.

That being said,,,a set of Doug's headers and Pypes transverse exhaust is on my wish list at Summit. 8)
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2019, 05:32:43 PM »
Sounds nice x33,,and can still listen to Molly Hatchet on the tunes.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2019, 05:42:44 PM »
Does the Pypes system utilize the stock hanger location? Or can it?
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

X33RS

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2019, 09:16:12 PM »
Yes stock hangers.  However it should be mentioned the rear tail pipe hangers worked after I adapted the stock tail pipes to the system.  Since the stock tailpipes are 2" diameter, and the hangers are designed for that.  The stock hangers wouldn't fit around the 2 1/2" tail pipes that come with the system.    Which was fine as my plan all along was to adapt stock tail pipes for a "correct" appearance.

For anyone interested as far as performance goes, I'll have numbers to post in a couple months on the Z from it's original born with exhaust system that was still on the car, to the Pypes system, that should be interesting.
  I did a bunch of testing on this years back on my Formula 400, with a reproduction Garner system vs an aftermarket 2 1/2" mandrel bent system.  Both transverse systems.  The bird picked up a solid 4 tenths ET and a little over 3 mph with just the exhaust, still running through the manifolds, didn't touch anything else.  The stock crush bend systems on these cars really choke them down, and even on a stock build I find it's probably the biggest, and easiest improvement made in ET and MPH, that is if you're into making these things run as good as they look.

crossboss

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2019, 10:16:09 PM »
Yes stock hangers.  However it should be mentioned the rear tail pipe hangers worked after I adapted the stock tail pipes to the system.  Since the stock tailpipes are 2" diameter, and the hangers are designed for that.  The stock hangers wouldn't fit around the 2 1/2" tail pipes that come with the system.    Which was fine as my plan all along was to adapt stock tail pipes for a "correct" appearance.

For anyone interested as far as performance goes, I'll have numbers to post in a couple months on the Z from it's original born with exhaust system that was still on the car, to the Pypes system, that should be interesting.
  I did a bunch of testing on this years back on my Formula 400, with a reproduction Garner system vs an aftermarket 2 1/2" mandrel bent system.  Both transverse systems.  The bird picked up a solid 4 tenths ET and a little over 3 mph with just the exhaust, still running through the manifolds, didn't touch anything else.  The stock crush bend systems on these cars really choke them down, and even on a stock build I find it's probably the biggest, and easiest improvement made in ET and MPH, that is if you're into making these things run as good as they look.



I agree. The 'stock' OEM systems are quite restrictive. I also changed to 2.5" exhausts (with cast manifolds, on a Ford no less) with the same improvement of 4-5 tenths with about 4 mph. This was on a dead stock engine/car. So, yes, go for the bigger 2.5", as you will be happy with the improvements/performance.
Just another T/A fanatic. Current lifelong projects:
1968 Olds 442 W-30
1969 Mustang Fastback w a Can-Am 494 (Boss 429)

janobyte

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2019, 10:46:50 PM »
Like I stated, basically what's the purpose of the car.I get these engines are pumps.

I'm assuming by his question that he's looking for an OE appearance.In which case a replica 2.25 will bolt up to his riser/manifold and suit his needs. If he's seeking performance,,well different reply🤔
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 10:57:19 PM »
And the style manifolds he is using flow just awful.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

ace

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2019, 05:20:46 AM »
Janobyte, Crossboss, X33RS:

Appreciate the discussion.   Weighing the two basic options:  stock transverse versus performance transverse.  Engine is completely stock original for all parts except cam (mild Comp Cam).  Stock heads were pocket ported to improve flow, but still using original intake and quadrajet.  Exhaust manifolds and water pump (sent back to New York for restoration) are original to the engine.  Stock manifolds are restrictive, but hoping to get some gain in flow with a 2.25 inch system. Just as a point of interest  Dave Vizard wrote that gains can be made by port matching the top and sides of stock exhaust (leaving the bottom of the pipe untouched so that a reversion dam is created in the pipe).  Not planning to take the time to do this.

Would love to go to headers and a more optimal performance transverse exhaust, but I live in California.  Summit and other vendors will not sell to California unless the parts meet C.A.R.B (air resources board) requirements.  Exhaust parts are only sold  with a C.A.R.B number.  If you know of a set of headers that Summit et alii sell to California for a 69 Camaro, let me know please.

Ace

X33RS

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2019, 03:11:10 PM »
Not trying to sell you on it, but with your cam change and head work it does seem that you are at least a little performance oriented.  In which case I'd be looking at the 2 1/2" mandrel kits.  But I'm one that likes to make them run as well as they look without sacrificing the stock appearances, so I'm a little bias.
     My tests have all been done through the stock manifolds as well.  There is a lot to be found with just the exhaust pipe upgrades with these cars.  I talk to a lot of the PS guys, which is what my Formula as well as my Z was built to conform with.  Rules allow a maximum of a 2 1/2" system as one of the few areas an upgrade is allowed, but they all run stock exhaust manifolds per rules.  Most will tell you, no matter what the car or engine, that the exhaust pipes are one of the single most improvements made on their cars, and my testing has shown that as well.   Matter of fact, a lot of engine dyno testing has shown that the biggest improvement in the systems are the down pipes right off the manifolds.  That first bend off the manifolds is the most critical.  Going from a crush bend down pipe to a mandrel bend down pipe, and no exhaust system afterwards on an engine dyno, has shown as much as a 12hp difference alone on some engines.
  Crazy to think about, but thought I'd share. 
    I went with the stock tail pipes on my Z because I do want to have a stock outward appearance, as that's really all you see, the rest of the system can't even be seen unless you're crawling on the ground.   But by all means, go with a reproduction system if you're looking for concours appearances and not that worried about performance.  It would certainly be an easier system to bolt on and function perfectly fine.

crossboss

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2019, 04:22:09 PM »
Janobyte, Crossboss, X33RS:

Appreciate the discussion.   Weighing the two basic options:  stock transverse versus performance transverse.  Engine is completely stock original for all parts except cam (mild Comp Cam).  Stock heads were pocket ported to improve flow, but still using original intake and quadrajet.  Exhaust manifolds and water pump (sent back to New York for restoration) are original to the engine.  Stock manifolds are restrictive, but hoping to get some gain in flow with a 2.25 inch system. Just as a point of interest  Dave Vizard wrote that gains can be made by port matching the top and sides of stock exhaust (leaving the bottom of the pipe untouched so that a reversion dam is created in the pipe).  Not planning to take the time to do this.

Would love to go to headers and a more optimal performance transverse exhaust, but I live in California.  Summit and other vendors will not sell to California unless the parts meet C.A.R.B (air resources board) requirements.  Exhaust parts are only sold  with a C.A.R.B number.  If you know of a set of headers that Summit et alii sell to California for a 69 Camaro, let me know please.

Ace


Ace,
I used to live in LA as recent as last year and never had an issue with Summit selling me parts. CARB compliant parts are only for 'pollution controlled' years. Kinda doubt 1960's cars are associated with all that non-sense, and are exempt anyways. Emission tests are only for 1976 and newer vehicles. You can always say 'its for off road use only'. So, that said I don't know why Summit is refusing a sale.
Anyways, finding a set of headers for a Camaro with a small block is not gonna be difficult. Im sure some members on here have a set that they can sell you. Also try ebay and craigslist.
Just another T/A fanatic. Current lifelong projects:
1968 Olds 442 W-30
1969 Mustang Fastback w a Can-Am 494 (Boss 429)

ace

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2019, 04:50:07 AM »
x33RS

Definitely will heed your advice about using  a mandrel bent downpipe.  If I stay with a 2.25 inch stock transverse system I will have the performance shop replace any crushed type downpipe that comes with a purchased system with a mandrel downpipe.   I do know that the Pypes transverse system comes with 2.5 inch pipes and transverse performance muffler.  Since the system is header back I have the option of purchasing a 2.5 inch downpipe from Pypes.     

Local performance exhaust shop said the shop usually includes in their assembly of a purchased system a crosspipe (akin to an H pipe) for balance. 

Overall goal is to increase performance over stock 2 inch system and maintain the stock appearance. 

Ace




ace

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2019, 05:29:01 AM »
Crossboss:

I am happy to own a car that is "smog exempt", but I have to tell you that it isn't always easy buying parts for the car.

I had a phone discussion with Summit a year ago when I tried to purchase a pair of their Dart iron eagle heads and the Summit version of the Dart iron eagle.  Since neither of these pair of heads had a C.A.R.B number, Summit said was it  illegal for them to sell the heads for a daily driver vehicle.   The only pair of iron heads that can be sold "legally" in California by Summit  and other vendors (like Jegs, Competition Product etc.) are World Product Heads (which sells a version of the Dart II heads).  What was interesting is that the World Product heads have nearly identical specs as the Dart iron eagle ss heads.  Essentially these heads are stock replacement heads for the old Camel humps. I discussed with the  Summit rep. that the Air Resources Board allows the use of heads that are stock replacement and does not require a C.A.R.B code.  Summit said they have too big a footprint in the aftermarket industry to take chances selling items that do not carry a C.A.R.B. code.   

       According to  C.A.R.B. '67 and prior California cars are automatically C.A.R.B. exempt.  Years '68- '76 are smog exempt (exempt from inspection), but are not C.A.R.B exempt.   Perhaps someday policy will catch up with practice.  Most enthusiasts are not worried about violating a code that will never be enforced, but vendors sure seem to worry about violating the code.

       In any case, Summit suggested I look into purchasing Edelbrock Performers or AFR 180 aluminum heads that carry a C.A.R.B number.  Given that I already had decent stock heads, I decided to have the originals pocket ported and the engine seems to run fairly strong -even on 91 octane.

Ace

crossboss

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Re: downpipe compatability with L48 stock exhaust manifold
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2019, 03:46:41 PM »
Crossboss:

I am happy to own a car that is "smog exempt", but I have to tell you that it isn't always easy buying parts for the car.

I had a phone discussion with Summit a year ago when I tried to purchase a pair of their Dart iron eagle heads and the Summit version of the Dart iron eagle.  Since neither of these pair of heads had a C.A.R.B number, Summit said was it  illegal for them to sell the heads for a daily driver vehicle.   The only pair of iron heads that can be sold "legally" in California by Summit  and other vendors (like Jegs, Competition Product etc.) are World Product Heads (which sells a version of the Dart II heads).  What was interesting is that the World Product heads have nearly identical specs as the Dart iron eagle ss heads.  Essentially these heads are stock replacement heads for the old Camel humps. I discussed with the  Summit rep. that the Air Resources Board allows the use of heads that are stock replacement and does not require a C.A.R.B code.  Summit said they have too big a footprint in the aftermarket industry to take chances selling items that do not carry a C.A.R.B. code.   

       According to  C.A.R.B. '67 and prior California cars are automatically C.A.R.B. exempt.  Years '68- '76 are smog exempt (exempt from inspection), but are not C.A.R.B exempt.   Perhaps someday policy will catch up with practice.  Most enthusiasts are not worried about violating a code that will never be enforced, but vendors sure seem to worry about violating the code.

       In any case, Summit suggested I look into purchasing Edelbrock Performers or AFR 180 aluminum heads that carry a C.A.R.B number.  Given that I already had decent stock heads, I decided to have the originals pocket ported and the engine seems to run fairly strong -even on 91 octane.

Ace



Ace,
Thats amazing, I never encountered that with Summit. Maybe it was just that sales man? As I suggested, try the line 'for off road use only' or this might be a bit of a hassle, have the parts shipped to a buddy out of state, then he can ship them to you. OR as you mentioned buy the CARB compliant stuff. Anyways, it seems you are quite happy what you have now, so that just might suffice for now.
Just another T/A fanatic. Current lifelong projects:
1968 Olds 442 W-30
1969 Mustang Fastback w a Can-Am 494 (Boss 429)