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Author Topic: 68 Air Conditioning -Sealing  (Read 25119 times)
lakeholme
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« on: March 02, 2007, 11:45:09 AM »

I want to pick back up on the AC sealing question...

Learned a lot from here: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1171.0;all

The 68 AIM, C60/B3, mentions several seals... I've been hunting for over a year and nobody has any original to sell and I can only find seal #3937126 in repo.
 
Does anyone know a source (yes, even repo) of the other seals? (Am I just not looking in the right place?)
Does anyone have any more pictures of the various seals in original cars (Ed has helped a lot, thanks.)
We established in the above post (and from the AIM) that clips were not used in 68.  It was double-sided tape.  Can anyone describe was that looks like?

68rsss327 has asked how the seal went across the fender braces in another post.

I (and I believe others) would really appreciate the help!  Grin
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 11:51:32 AM by lakeholme » Logged

Phillip
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2007, 12:37:47 PM »

Phil,

Unfortunately, the other seals are in areas that are almost impossible to take pictures of. Unless someone has taken the front end apart, you probably won't be able to see them.

I don't believe anyone is reproducing the two side seals (#5 &#6), or the upper and lower radiator seals (#2 &#9), but for the latter you could probably just go to Home Depot and buy black foam rubber weatherstripping. The two baffles (#6 &#7) aren't being reproduced either, but they come up on ebay from time to time however, they seem to be expensive!!

Edit: Two sets on ebay right now with the seals! One for 68 and one for 69. Look to be good prices as well. However, verify with the seller. He has one listed as 68 in the title, but 69 in the text.

1968

1969

Ed
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 01:03:17 PM by bertfam » Logged
click
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2007, 05:41:00 PM »

The AIM page that Ed showed in that thread also notes the 'different' kind of side deflector (baffle) for convertibles. If the baffle has a curve in it, that was to go around the 'cocktail shaker' on either side of the inner fender. Those are even more rare and not repod either.  If they are flat, they are for coupes.
 I found a set on ebay 3 years ago, cleaned them up, reinstalled the fiber material with stainless wire from the hobby store, looks great Smiley
Here is pic of mine in place

« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 05:43:33 PM by click » Logged

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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2007, 01:33:02 PM »

Jim is that a 68 or 69 in your picture?

Ed
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2007, 03:18:42 PM »

Thats a 69.  The front baffles weren't used on 68's until sometime around April of 68. If you really want an exercise in futility try finding a convertible baffle.  I've only got one for my car and have been looking for the second one for about 6 years now.  I guess I should just take the one I have down to a sheetmetal shop and see if they can make me a mirror image of the one I have.
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2007, 03:52:30 PM »

Quote
I guess I should just take the one I have down to a sheetmetal shop and see if they can make me a mirror image of the one I have.

Have them make a bunch and then start selling them on ebay for BIG $$$!!

Thanks Jim. I thought it was a 69 but wasn't sure.

Ed
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 07:26:04 AM »

Ed and others,

Thanks for the help, so far...

$125!!! for 68 baffles?!?!  That sheetmetal shop is starting to sound like a good idea!

Again, seal #3937126 was sealed with two sided tape in 68... Does that tape look like the same stuff that is now on weather stripping?
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Phillip
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 08:52:40 PM »

I have a 07E 68 with A/C.....The core support seal DOES NOT use two sided tape.The core support is made with holes and uses clips to hold down the seal. If you need clips you can use the same ones in the door weatherstrip to hold it on.Just slice the strip with a razor and slide the clip in then turn it 180 degrees.....This will work the best with the old repro seal. I was lucky enough to save my factory clips.For the other seals... I made new rubber flaps from a sheet of material similar to the fender well dust flaps and also used those staples.For the radiator to core support ,Foam seal, you can use GM part number 14016160....(this is what was in my box..said "air duct") I was told it was used on a Corvette...It DOES USE two sided tape...hope this helps....

Steve
 
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lakeholme
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 11:13:39 AM »

That is helpful Steve... But now you've opened the question about clips again... and pretty much voided the info. I got on another post at CRG... Do you know for sure that the core support seal on your 07E is original???
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2007, 12:47:21 PM »

The last READABLE Change Date listed in the 1968 AIM is June 3rd, 1968. As a matter of fact, there are several changes in the book with that date regarding the Exhaust Pipe and Muffler for the big block engines and the Z28.

Before that date, the latest READABLE date was April 29th, 1968. Again in several areas of the book.

Regarding the C60 option specifically, the latest READABLE date is April 26th, 1968. Once again listed on several pages. The seal in question is listed on page B3 with the following "Note 10":

Quote
Remove backing for installation

Going by these dates, this book was being updated all through the year and at least up to June 3rdth, 1968 with the C60 option itself being updated at least to April 26th, 1968. Therefore any car built after that "MAY" have had a change to the components or procedure not listed in the AIM.

Steve's car is a VERY late build. In fact, it's one of the last 68's to roll off the line. By that time, the 1969 AIM was out and it's "possible" the last few weeks of production for 1968 "may" have had 1969 changes applied to them.

JohnZ can you add anything to this?

By the way Steve, what's your VIN?

Ed
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 12:49:16 PM by bertfam » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2007, 03:50:07 PM »

The clips for the '69 seal went into (9) holes that were drilled at assembly, at (9) dimple locations on the top surface of the radiator support; did the '68 radiator support have those dimples?

If the dimples were added to the radiator support for '69, it's highly unlikely that the '69 part was "pulled-ahead" in late '68; "pull-ahead" changes were very rare in those days.
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2007, 10:39:05 AM »

With 100% certainty I can tell you my core support is correct and has the holes for the seal....my VIN ends in 4808## ...Yes this car is strange..Very late L-30 with the  68 dated 041 heads..Check the L-30 report here at the CRG...No adheisive on the core support or the seal....Clips only. The tops of the holes are not flat but dimpled like a punched hole.....I have pics somewhere...I'll try to find them.

They very well may have used an adheisive during the year.....but I can tell you this car did not.I have restored it the way I found it.  Dainel  C. saw the car at Summit racing at the Fall Classic.... 


Steve
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lakeholme
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2007, 01:38:19 PM »

Well, once again, from John and Ed I'm confident about the tape for mine.  My car does not have the holes for the pins.  It is good to know, however, if you have a late, late 68 those pins are a possibility.  Thanks for the verification, Steve.  And always, thanks CRG!
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Phillip
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2007, 02:17:48 PM »

I tried to post a pic of the seal & hole but I guess I'm doing something wrong...... Sad


Steve
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lakeholme
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 08:46:00 AM »

Steve,

Posting from a third-party site works better, because it shows the picture on CRG. (Learned that from Ed).
Take a look at Joe's explanation:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1643.0

I cannot tell much from the picture you posted. (Even saved it and tried to enlarge...)  Would you mind sending it to me in a PM?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 08:51:43 AM by lakeholme » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2007, 08:12:59 PM »

The pic I posted is of my unrestored seal... taken 25 yr. ago.....I can't even see what I posted...LOL.I'm a car guy not a computer guy...I have another pic showing the holes. Both pics were taken showing the whole engine compartment after adding some chrome and headers.I cropped out everything else and tried to just show what is relevent here..I sent you a PM  lakeholme  ....


Steve
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lakeholme
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 09:04:49 AM »

Steve and I are emailing back and forth.  Looks like he has an exception to what we had figured out before.
BTW, if anyone thought I was negatively questioning Steve from my post above, that was completely not my intention!  I'm actually excited about him being able to document an exception... That's one of the great things about CRG!  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 11:28:46 AM »

We'll get it figured out....What is the build date of your car? I have seen lots of other 68's with the hole and always thought they should be there.....Good discussion..



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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 11:34:50 AM »

Steve,

My car is a 12D.  It does not have the holes.

Note Ed's post above about the 68 (and 69) AIM.  That's what I have been going by.
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Phillip
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 06:45:20 PM »

Ok......I did some digging and found a TSB on 68 Camaro air problems..

68-T-73
Ia
Dec.20,1968

Subject..

A/C hoses rupturing or blowing off 1968 Camaro

"Excessive compressor head pressures due to high engine compartment air temp has also been noted as a contributing factor to hose failure.Special under hood sealing at the radiator support to improve air displacement has been released for production (effective 6-19-68) and for service."


Steve
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 06:58:36 PM by 68L30 » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 06:53:39 PM »

Another interesting point is the installation of the seals to the baffles.They were stapled at the factory,but this TSB mentions installation with #8-32 screws....This would confirm the retro fit of the seals on 68 Camaros built before  ?? (what date)..


i'm convinced GM was aware of the problems with underhood temps and was tring to come up with solutions during the 68 production...I also believe an adheisive backed rubber weather strip was not a very good solution...Just look at where it is located...and the heat factor + the use of glue..There also is not one other similar seal used on a 68 without some form of fastener of mounting channel... Clips were added but the question should be when.....6-19-68 is a pretty good start for now..IMHO..Thoughts?


Steve   
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lakeholme
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 09:08:24 AM »

Great info., Steve!

I'd say 6-19-68 could be the starting point of planning for pins.  Could have been implemented by your build date...
I also note that the TSB was issued a year after my car was made... 

John and Ed, if you see this, I'd love to know what you think.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 10:00:23 AM by lakeholme » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 12:52:24 PM »

I'll let John comment, but this sounds reasonable. Since the last recorded change to the 1968 AIM was on June 3rd, 1968, and the Bulletin references June 19th, 1968, it apprears that it just missed making the AIM by 2 weeks.

I'd like to see if we have other 1968 A/C cars in the database built after the June 19th reference with the clips. I don't know how long it takes from the release of a bulletin to manufacturing actually starting the process, but in this case, there's an actual date so I would say it probably occured as written.

Kurt, do we have any other late cars with A/C and the clips?

John, your comments please...

Ed


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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 01:47:41 PM »

I just went back to my (limited) database and found the following:

1. Los Angeles car (VIN 124378L347058). Built in mid to late July. Does NOT have the seal or the holes for the clips (picture 1 below).

2. Norwood car (VIN 124378N463076). Athough the seal's in the way, it appears to have the clips (picture 2 below).

3. Norwood car (VIN 124378N480620). Holes for the clips (picture 3 below).



Picture 1 - Los Angeles Car (VIN 124378L347058):





Picture 2 - Norwood car (VIN 124378N463076):





Picture 3 - Norwood car (VIN 124378N480620):



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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 03:01:10 PM »

Ed,

So are the Norwood #2 and #3 cars you listed above, May and June build dates?  If that's true, that pulls the date of the clips up till May?

BTW, thanks for the clip hole pictures.  It helps to know what you're looking for.

By any chance could someone post a picture of the clip?
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2007, 03:16:02 PM »

Phil,

No, number 2 and 3 are from July, 1968. Unfortunately, I don't have any Norwood A/C cars from June.

The number 1 picture (Los Angeles) is also a July car, but note that there are no holes for the clips (and no seal itself). This is the only LA car I have with A/C for July. None for June either so I have VERY limited information.

I'm hoping Kurt has more and can chime in here.

Ed
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2007, 07:00:10 PM »

this is on a 1969 , the radiator to core support seals i made . if you buy a new top seal use a paper punch to put the holes in ,a razor might leave a corner that can tear .if you look at an original 1967 core support they dont have the dimples for the clip holes .




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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2007, 08:40:55 AM »

Mark,
I have ordered a new core seal. Now, I'm trying to decide about clips or tape.  With my 68 12D build date, the AIM says tape.  I really appreciate the clip pictures, however.

Are the shroud seals you made door insulation?  How are they attached?  Glue or tape?  How's that working?
We've got a question if the tape worked well with the heat.

Thanks for the input...
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Phillip
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2007, 10:45:18 AM »

Ed, the third car in your post above must have originally had the seal and had it removed at some point; those clip holes were "drill at assembly", and they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of manually drilling the nine holes without also installing the seal.
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2007, 05:19:07 PM »

i looked in the yellow pages for foam rubber and found a place that sells it in flat sheets and just cut to fit .it has a skin on one side.  i used black 3M weather strip glue, you can get it with self adhesive backing . its been on for years . does you core support have the dimples ?  if you drill holes watch out for the condenser underneath them .
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2007, 07:57:53 PM »

Mark,

No holes, but I'll have to look about dimples...
It's going to be over a week before I can get to the car.  I have to work all weekend to help pay for the toys.
Thanks for the info on the glue.  I've actually got a tube of the same thing.  It's worth knowing it stands up under the heat.  I still think I'm going to glue my AC seals.  For my build date, that seems to be correct.  If it comes off after a while, I'll go back and clip it...
Thanks!

..Now, if anybody knows a source for the clips, let us know!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 08:04:27 PM by lakeholme » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2007, 08:25:51 PM »

I've seen the same clip on the cowl seal on impalas and i think chevelles  . other cars probably have them .
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2007, 08:18:25 PM »

One other question: How is the core seal placed so you can get at the bolt that holds down the support bar on the battery side?  ...If it is glued?
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2007, 08:59:32 PM »

the seal covers the bolt if you glue it you cant glue that area . can you scan and post your 1968 AIM page that shows the seal and glue ?
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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2007, 08:39:51 PM »

Mark X22,

Thanks for the help.  The bolt access is another good reason why they went to the clips, I suppose.

Sorry, don't have a scanner...

The 68 AIM clearly identifies the core seal (3937126) in the diagram as note #1 and the radiator seals (3937127-8) as #2, and each is coupled with #10 which states "Remove backing for installation".  That's how Ed established the process for gluing the seals.  The date for that page is 11-3-67 (C60/B3) and it shows no revision record for that particular page.  (Note his June date above for the last revision of the 68 AIM.)

If Ed happens to see this page, I think he has a scanner.  Help, Ed!

Hope this is of some help...
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2007, 09:11:31 AM »

Well, I tracked down a core support seal --glued it-- and here's how it turned out:



I did leave myself (unglued) room to get at the support bar bolt to remove the battery.

From Mark's post above, I realized that the baffles aren't an issue on my 68 12D (when you look at it you can tell.)

Now, I'm looking for for material to make those top seals like Markx22 suggested.

Thanks for the help!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 09:20:51 AM by lakeholme » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2007, 09:41:00 PM »

Phil,

That looks really good. What kind of glue did you use? (Hopefully it's heat proof!!)

Is this the scan you were looking for?

Ed

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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2007, 11:26:29 AM »

Thanks, Ed!  I really do appreciate your opinion.
I used a black 3M glue, which (I think) is either the same or similar to what Markx22 mentions above.  I did try a test strip of it with the motor warm.  Didn't seem to phase it.  He says it has held his seals for years.
Yes, that's the AIM page that Markx22 asked for. (I need to get a scanner!)  Thanks!  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 03:07:17 PM »

I did take the time at the Charlotte Autofair to track down a well restored 69 without A/C.
So, here's a dimple (I presume), and my 68 doesn't have them...
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 03:09:53 PM »

I also tracked down a well restored 69 with A/C.
Here's how this guy did the seals:

It does have clips.


I could not tell how the 3937127/8 seals were glued --if they were.  It was a very clean job... nice and tight, and I didn't want to pull on them.
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2007, 05:54:42 PM »

i used 3m weatherstrip glue on the radiator where the seal sets on the top plate .
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« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2007, 07:23:50 AM »

That's good to know, because that's exactly what I've got.  It is working fine on the core support seal.
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« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2007, 04:22:06 PM »

3M yellow glue WILL fail after a few years - both ends of my seal are loose. I think I installed it about 10 years ago. NOT correct for a '67 but mine had cooling problems and also blew an a/c hose so it was a fix that seemed to help.

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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2007, 08:22:23 AM »

The glue we are talking about is not a yellow glue.  It's more like rubber cement. But I do thank you for the info.
I've literally looked at dozens of these now.  Apparently the original glued seals did come unglued at the ends, etc., originally.  That may be another reason for the clips.
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2007, 01:53:17 PM »

At the time the parts store said that the yellow weatherstrip adhesive was superior to the black. I'm not sure if he was right but it sure looks worse if any gets out past the seal! And you're right it does work like contact cement so "glue" was the wrong term.

Rod
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2007, 10:41:57 AM »

OK, Rod, I'm on the same page with you now...

"Yellow glue", I've learned, is actually a specific kind of glue in the glue business world.  But you were talking about weatherstrip adhesive.  (I didn't even know it came in yellow?!?)  I can undestand what you mean about not letting it show past the seal.  I had to work carefully and slowly (or at least as slow as drying adhesive will let you) to get a clean job with the black.

Note that Mark X22 says his has lasted a long time.  I'll have to wait and see on mine...

Any of you who were looking for 69 baffles, there's another post on CRG about them, and he may be looking to sell them...
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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2007, 10:17:02 PM »

If anyone is still looking for a pair of '69 a/c baffles, here is a used pair for sale complete with seals:

http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=17261&cat=8

Paul

 
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« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2007, 08:50:53 AM »

If anyone else has any experience with:
1. The glue not sticking well over a long period of time (and what kind of glue you used).
2. Where and what type of foam you bought to go between the radiator and the support (3937127/8).
I'd like to hear from you!

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2007, 11:23:49 AM »

I still don't buy into the glue concept.....How long did this take you to do this? Do you think GM would take that kind of time on the line? How do they keep the seal from shifting while it drys with people climbing all over it? It just doesn't sound logical.....There would be obvious glue residue everywhere on the radiator support..... I have never seen that before....only the clips and holes for mounting them....Just my opinion....


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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2007, 12:07:19 PM »

Steve, Chevrolet didn't use glue. They used double sided tape and just peeled it off and stuck it on.

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« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2007, 07:36:48 PM »

I still don't buy into the glue concept.....How long did this take you to do this? Do you think GM would take that kind of time on the line? How do they keep the seal from shifting while it drys with people climbing all over it? It just doesn't sound logical.....There would be obvious glue residue everywhere on the radiator support..... I have never seen that before....only the clips and holes for mounting them....Just my opinion....


Steve

Steve, I do appreciate your opinion.  You make some good points, and they explain part of why GM eventually went to clips.

But Ed is right. The original 68 seal was "taped" on.  The 68 AIM shows that... No clips. --See note 10 in the AIM page that Ed posted for us above.

The repo seals do not come with the tape (and they don't come with the holes for the clips or the clips) and a two sided tape that would hold under that heat is vitually impossible to find.  There are no clip holes in my support because clips were not used then --and yes, my car originally came with AC.  In an effort to find something that works well in the "pre-clip" time, some of us have turned to glue.  That would be closer to two sided tape than clips --in light of the documentation from the AIM.

Does your 68 have AC?  What's the build date?  If it doesn't have AC does it have dimples on the support?  If it does, I'd love to see a picture...

As to your questions:
1. About a minute... Granted not assembly line speed, but not bad without practice.  With the tape, it would have only taken seconds.
2. If the tape was anything like the glue, it's almost instantaneous.  I think your question applies to both; i.e., "How would the clips not get pulled out or holes torn with people climbing all over it?"
3. If you will look at my picture above, you will see no residue. It's a single bead of glue under the seal, just like the tape would have been.

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« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2007, 10:08:11 AM »

I’m sorry if I sound argumentive..but I really do have a theroy as to why the seal was never put on with an adheisive or glue from the FACTORY…I can speak  my thoughts a lot better than I can type…LOL.. Please bear with me…

1.   After looking at my copy of the AIM ….I noticed the date of the drawing to be 11-3-67..a few months after the production srtart of 68…released 11-7.This document clearly shows the  3937128 seal using the backing.If using these dates, two months of production clearly did not use the seals at all.

2.   The TSB I quoted earlier states “ Special under hood sealing at the radiator support to improve air displacement has been released for  PRODUCTION ( effective 6-19-68) AND FOR SERVICE…

3.   Why would point number two (the TSB) be needed  IF the procedure in the AIM been started somewhere close to the dates shown?

4.   My theroy is…..They were not used untill approx 6-19-68…Then they (factory) used holes and clips for the mounting of the seal. The use of the adheisive was  used as as service only fix ,for cars with excessive compressor head pressures per the TSB .

5.   Did your car have the side baffles? If the answer is yes….are they stapled on or do they use # 8x 1/2  sheet metal screws? The factory would have used the staples….the service replacement would have used the screws per the TSB…Does your car have the piercings for the  installation of the baffle 5/16 bolts on the core support?J-nuts or regular nuts?
 
6.   Again all I have ever notice is the core support with the mounting holes…I have never personaly looked  at  one that used the adheisive backing. The question is …How would I know if I did if the seal was missing? Adheisive remains? I guess it is impossible to know for sure after a car has been restored  and not documented..I would not use the after market seal as a guide.The seal from what I recall has a slight difference from the factory seal…Like most repro parts they came close.Why were the clips never offered in repro ? That’s easy they were never listed in the AIM….

7.   As for the AIM….I never read it as gospel.It is a great tool to assemble your Camaro…BUT.. I have noticed errors in the book before as well as updates. I have been in manufacturing quality control for 20 years and have learned that prints and documents are not updated and revised like we all would like them to be.

8.   Yes my car has A/C….It is a O7E car with a VIN of 4808**…My car does have the holes and clips in the core support. My car also has the side baffles with seals that are stapled on.I have also reproduced the correct 6550133 compressor decal that is correct for 68…Most use the incorrect decals offered by the repro  vendors….

9.   I will post pics  of my core support later…..   


Steve   

         

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« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2007, 10:40:34 AM »

After going back and reading this discussion again.....I noticed your car didn't receive the side baffles either.This makes sense with my theroy....A 12D car did not get seals of any kind. It's falls early in production in 68... if you go by the first AIM release of approx 11-7....And way too early for the June 19 dated TSB...If anything... a complete service retro fit of these components is possible. Due you have your  orig compressor decal? If yes is there a white paint dot next to the shift numer on the decal? If yes, your unit was in for O- ring  seal service on the a/c system....Updates to the other seals may have been performed at that time......


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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2007, 08:31:41 AM »

Steve,

Don't see your discussion as negative at all.  That's what we're here for...

You're taking an interesting read on the AIM, etc.  It's different from everything else I have heard.  Where you really get my attention is the baffles.  I've wondered about that part of the evidence from the start.

I'm going to try an get Ed or someone from CRG in on this...
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2007, 11:08:15 AM »


1.   After looking at my copy of the AIM ….I noticed the date of the drawing to be 11-3-67..a few months after the production srtart of 68…released 11-7.This document clearly shows the  3937128 seal using the backing.If using these dates, two months of production clearly did not use the seals at all.

2.   The TSB I quoted earlier states “ Special under hood sealing at the radiator support to improve air displacement has been released for  PRODUCTION ( effective 6-19-68) AND FOR SERVICE…

3.   Why would point number two (the TSB) be needed  IF the procedure in the AIM been started somewhere close to the dates shown?

4.   My theroy is…..They were not used untill approx 6-19-68…Then they (factory) used holes and clips for the mounting of the seal. The use of the adheisive was  used as as service only fix ,for cars with excessive compressor head pressures per the TSB .

I'll add this - the release date on an A.I.M. sheet, especially as a running change during the model year, has little relationship to when a given part actually entered production; it only indicates when the drafting room released the sheet, which was created as a result of an engineer submitting an ECR (Engineering Change Request) to Drafting.

The incorporation date of a new part was handled in a different system, by an NPC (Notice of Production Change), which instructed the plant to introduce a part change, disposition of cancelled parts (if any), and to report the VIN number of the first car produced with the change incorporated. The date a change was effective (as reported by the plant in response to an NPC) was always noted in a TSB (sometimes the VIN of the first car with the change was also included), like the 6-19-68 date noted in this TSB.

Having worked in that system for many years, I'd conclude that the change went into production on 6-19-68; the 11-7 A.I.M. sheet simply indicated Engineering intent at that point in time (which changed later to holes and clips instead of 2-sided tape).
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2007, 05:14:41 PM »

Having worked in that system for many years, I'd conclude that the change went into production on 6-19-68; the 11-7 A.I.M. sheet simply indicated Engineering intent at that point in time (which changed later to holes and clips instead of 2-sided tape).

Thanks for the clarification, John.
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2007, 09:25:22 PM »

Having worked in that system for many years, I'd conclude that the change went into production on 6-19-68; the 11-7 A.I.M. sheet simply indicated Engineering intent at that point in time (which changed later to holes and clips instead of 2-sided tape).

Thanks for the clarification, John.



I read this as......tape never made production......Correct? 


Steve   
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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2007, 03:44:30 PM »



[/quote]



I read this as......tape never made production......Correct? 


Steve   
[/quote]

No way to know if it did or not without seeing the NPC, and they were informal internal documents, never published; in this situation, the only evidence would be an untouched known-original car.
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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2007, 04:08:13 PM »






I read this as......tape never made production......Correct? 


Steve   
[/quote]

No way to know if it did or not without seeing the NPC, and they were informal internal documents, never published; in this situation, the only evidence would be an untouched known-original car.
[/quote]


I'll buy that.....Time to start digging for early unrestored 68's with a/c.......The trouble is... most have already been screwed up! I've owned my 68 for 23 years and have been heavy into 68's ever since..........Very tough to find orig optioned cars...even harder to find correct ones....I hate all these cookie cutter restos that copy each other...How about restoring exactly what you have found on a particular car.......JMHO...


Steve 
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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2007, 08:00:01 PM »

I read this as......tape never made production......Correct? 

...Time to start digging for early unrestored 68's with a/c....... 

No...

Yes...

I've already checked with a couple of folks who have data on 68s with AC, but no one seems to have enough data to make a determination. I can find a few examples of seals and a few of no seals, but most say don't know --and all are hard to document. It strikes me as John says, "No way to know..."  I'm not prepared to so easily dismiss the AIM.  The lag time between 11-3-67 and 6-19-68 seems hard to qualify and could only point to the decission to switch to clips.

Like Steve says they may be hard to find, but...
I'd really like to hear from others --with documented, original 68s with AC. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2007, 05:24:56 PM »

Ok,Here's some new info......I spent the day Sat. working on a unrestored 68 RS/SS 350 car. This was a 04D car with 1700 orig miles. Totaly UNRESTORED. No seal across the core support,no side baffles...The core support had no evidence of ever having a seal.This car had some other neat stuff as well, quite a textbook of what was happning and what wasn't in April of 68. Total time machine!     


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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2007, 05:27:02 PM »

Steve, can you get me information on the car for the database? Things like VIN, Trim Tag, Seal Belt Codes, Engine stampings, carb code, axle code, etc... Any paperwork?

Ed
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2007, 05:35:01 PM »

Ed....It is all documented. This is the 68 Dana Camaro discussed on the sYc site.


Steve
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2007, 03:41:42 PM »

Ok.I did some more research this weekend and found a few more cars....First a 11B 68 w A/C  that has no seal/dimples or baffles in it.The underhood/car was mostly untouched.....Found two other 06D non A/C cars that both had there orig core supports. Both had dimples for a seal..I see a pattern starting to form here.....I like the TSB date more and more...


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« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2007, 07:21:00 AM »

OK, Steve, you are slowly winning me over --except for one thing: the seals do help the temp when running the AC.
I do have to admit that my 12D (undocumented) came with no seals/dimples/baffles.  I think the dimples and baffles have already been explained.  But the seal is still a bit of a "mystery"...

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« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2007, 09:53:42 AM »

I now have a few more cars in the database and I'm starting to see some indications of late radiator supports with holes. Here's a picture of a 05E Norwood car. The seal is long gone, but you can clearly see the holes for mounting it.

Ed


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« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2007, 05:00:24 PM »

do reproduction supports have dimples ?
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« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2007, 06:17:23 PM »

Mark, no the repro core supports do not have the dimples......RatPack........
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« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2007, 07:59:40 PM »

Ed, Steve, Mark, John, and anybody else who will look:

OK, in light of Richard's recent find of the Dealer Service Technical Bulletin: "AC Hoses Rupturing Or Blowing Off --1968 Camaro", dated December 20, 1968, take a look at page two, which includes seal repairs.  It clearly shows seals with adhesive backing, etc.  On page one it suggests these seals in the repair and says they were released for production in June.  (Granted, it completely ignores the support seal other than showing it...and thus not answering my biggest question...)

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2558.0;all

I'm not going to say this gives any more "support" to the original seal issue (the June date pretty much eleimnates it in earlier cars, except as a dealer repair to fix the problem), but it does at least establish that by 12/20/68 some 68s may have had them --tape adhesive and all.  In fact, I think it may well add more creedence to Steve's theory and at least explain why few can be found...

I guess my question is "Doesn't this give some validation to the 68 AC seals --at least in terms of a repair?"

Would really appreciate opionions!
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« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2007, 08:34:36 PM »

phil,

The TSB was released as a "fix" that the dealer would have done on finding problems, and an official announcement that the seal was to go into effect on 6-19-68. In terms of a repair, I would say yes. In terms of "factory", I'm not sure. The cars I've shown in the database are very late and have the holes for the seal like the 69's. I guess it's possible that the seal with the tape was a short term "stop gap" until the engineers could come up with a better way of attaching it (clips).

John would have to weigh in on this one!

Ed
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« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2007, 08:43:27 PM »

Ed,
Thanks.  BTW, I was modifying my post above, as you posted yours.  I forgot that June date, at first.
Steve pretty much has me sold on his theory, basically as you describe it:

...In terms of a repair, I would say yes. In terms of "factory", I'm not sure... I guess it's possible that the seal with the tape was a short term "stop gap" until the engineers could come up with a better way of attaching it (clips)...

I, too, would like to hear from John and others, not just about the theory itself, but how these dates line up, as well.
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« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2007, 10:13:29 PM »

Sorry, I've not been logged in for some time...

Remember by releasing a TSB.... Chevrolet was aware of a problem that they were having with a particular item.This one was hose rupture due to underhood temps......"IF"... The seals were present....They would not have issued the TSB to add them.Another fix or "check" would have been mentioned in the article.This TSB was about adding seals to a car that was manufactured without them.The easy fix was to retro fit the cars as quickly as possible.Remember the motor mount recall Cables Huh  That means screws were used instead of staples ( the dealer had no way to install staples) and tape to install the seal ( no drilling of holes).The cars produced after the June date were manufactured with the clips and all seals present....Hence the listing of the production date.


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« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2007, 08:00:38 PM »

You da man, Steve!
Reading your notes above and the TSB, it all adds up...
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« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2007, 11:01:19 PM »

Hardly the man......Just persistant sometimes..I wish my computer skills were better. I'd have posted the TSB for all to enjoy...

FYI....I have them all (TSB's) from 1968 production and some for early 69... 


What's next on the list....LOL..


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« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2007, 08:35:24 AM »

Richard scanned the ones he bought....
Would you post a list of the titles of the 68 TSBs you have?

Next for me is deciding whether to remove those seals... By what you figure, my 12D wouldn't have any seals.  Fortunately, the glue comes off relatively easy --if you know what you are going.  Of course, with the weather we are having, anything that helps get cooling may be worth keeping on a driver. 
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« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2007, 05:43:03 PM »

In the "For What It's Worth" Department:
On page 207 in Hooper's "Conclusive Camaro Recognition Guide", he shows three pictures of what he describes as "1968 396 V8" with radiator support seals.

I still recognize that 1. Steve's conclusions make good sense; and, 2. Hooper never actually mentions the seals.  He is illustrating other things.
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« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2010, 07:58:31 PM »

http://camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=6872.0

Follow the above link for more info.
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