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Author Topic: 67 Pace cars  (Read 18489 times)
Charley
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« on: February 27, 2007, 05:20:35 PM »

[Content removed by Rich...]

Jeff says the 2 Pace cars did not leave the factory with L78's so they are not L78's. They were built as L78's and I have the GM work order calling for them to be built as L78's. The work order then called for them to be deliverd to Chevrolet's engineering department. Then it calls for them to change the powertrain combination from "as delivered status" to RPO L35-M40.
  The above GM statement should settle any outlandish debate as to how they were delivered. They were delivered as L78-4 speeds. That was the "as delivered status". It was delivered to the engineering department as a L78.  The protecto-plate for my Pace car is for a L78 4 speed. Where Jeff tries to draw the line as to what the car was built as is simply to try to lessen what the car is because he has a problem with me. He also states there were 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars. Really ? Is there any fact to this or is he just making stuff up ? Does CRG have any info on these 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars ? If anyone thinks Jeff has made his posts because he really believes they were not L78 cars I would sure like to hear it.
 In regards to the discussion as to Grumpys car being the first L78 I will still assume the Pace cars were first based on the build date on the trim tags being a week earlier and the vins being about 2400 cars earlier.
  It would be nice to hear the CRG opinion or other members opinions.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:54:03 AM by Rich » Logged

festival
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 07:03:28 PM »

Here are the Documents.  I have looked these over myself in the early 1990's  Ligit all day long.

Page #1 Here: http://www.camaropacecars.com/1967/Engineering%20%20file.jpg

Page #2 Here:   http://www.camaropacecars.com/1967/Engineering%20file2.jpg

Phil
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 07:06:42 PM »

The only L78 Pace car to go around the track in 1967 was the #3 car.  PERIOD
Many years ago when Dan Young discovered that the #3 car had been found still intact….
That is the time he decided to sell his – Now CL you have it.  A magnificent car for sure

However your car does not have a L78 in it - maybe it never did? 
Maybe it was delivered to the tech center with NO drivetrain?
Or, maybe the body was made, and held up till Grumpy’s cars were track tested?
We all must assume that GM didn’t just drop a L78 into a Camaro body,
and send the first one to Indy to be a public spectacle – no they tested it over and over.

GM wanted that car to be a L35 - so that is what they made it into - case closed.
If GM wanted it to be a deli delivery car - it would have left with a baloney sandwich in the glove box.
The car was converted – not in a good way (in your opinion), but converted nonetheless - apparently for drivability.

We call those Shelby Mustangs “Shelbys” not Mustangs...
Because they they were converted. The Newer Camaros are not called Z/28’s that were converted to SS’-
They are called what the factory intended them to be. Factory SS Camaros.

Your track car has an automatic transmission, soft-lifter heads, and a cast Iron intake. Not an L78 as is described in all the production data.
The L78 is an engine option – nothing more – so without the engine, what do you have?

I have a question for you:
Do you really think it should be an L78?  If so you better find a dated example to replace
the L35 that was installed by the FACTORY.  We all know how you want your cars to be exactly correct right Huh

Is that car a historical benchmark -absolutely, but it is not an L78.

[Content removed by Rich...]

I am just presenting my opinion as I truly believe.

You have an amazing car - but the first L78 Camaro - get real. LOL Smiley
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:55:21 AM by Rich » Logged
paceme
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 07:37:33 PM »

Lets stick to the facts as presented by Charley and Phil. There is absolutely no question that this car had an L78 drivetrain installed by the factory assembly line and delivered as such to GM Engineering. Facts are indisputable when backed up by original engineering documentation, and a protecto plate as proof it was built and delivered as such. Opinions, well everyone may have one, but in this case they are not necessary as the documents speak volumes.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 07:42:02 PM by paceme » Logged

Steve Shauger
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Charley
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2007, 08:01:38 PM »

Per Al Young...Vince Piggins told him a 3rd Pace car was never built. You may have found a L78 Pace car but not one that was prepped to pace the race.

  "Many years ago when Dan Young discovered that the #3 car had been found still intact….
That is the time he decided to sell his "
   That is just silly and just posted to tell tall tales. When I met Al Young they had sold the dealership and Dan had retired to Florida. Al was storing the car and they no longer needed it. Your audacity to tell a lie that Dan Young decided to sell the Pace car because a 3rd Pace car had been found should be offensive to everyone. Do you think that if a backup Pace car had been found it has any effect on the car that actually paced the race ? There are many pics of the Dan Young car pacing the race. There are none of your mystical car pacing the race so why would that make Dan Young  want to sell his car ? GM engineering converted the car into the L35, not the assembly line. The assembly line built it and shipped it with a L78.

  "Maybe it was delivered with no drivetrain ? " Does anyone reading this thread that has seen the paperwork really believe this statement is anything more than someone trying to spread mis-information ?

[Response to other removed content removed by Rich...]
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:56:54 AM by Rich » Logged

Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2007, 08:07:23 PM »

What about my facts?
Nice to have so many new members coming over fron sYc to discuss this. Smiley
You are exactly right. In this case the paperwork speaks volumes.
The only L78 Engine driving around the track at the 1967 Indy 500 was the #3 car.

By the time that #1 car left GM for road use, the L78 was removed and replaced with a L35 T400.
Chevrolet NEVER intended for that car to be a L78. NEVER.

So if Chevrolet didn't want it to be a L78, why do you think it should be?
The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period.

Do you happen to have a picture of the trim tag from the #1 car?
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2007, 08:22:24 PM »

Your facts regarding the #3 car are wrong.  Talk to the guy writing the book .
I would never try to devalue your car.
The engine means nothing.
even if it had a 4 cylinder Buick engine in it  - it Paced the race.
You should be proud.  I would be Huh

Dan Young was down here in Florida when the #3 car was discovered. He knows all about it
Pretty stupid to think I would make that up.
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festival
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2007, 08:48:18 PM »

Jeff,

What #3 car are you talking about.  IMS Photos place IMS numbered car #92 as the pace car for both restarts.  The Back up car was IMS #90.

Please clairify.

Thanks

Phil
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festival
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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2007, 08:54:19 PM »

Are you talking about the L-78 Mule that was tested at IMS and returned to Chevrolet?  That car was not delivered to the speedway for pace duty.  Is that the one you are talking about?    If so even by Fisher Body build# IMS #92 is still the eariler body build up.

Phil
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Charley
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2007, 09:01:43 PM »

    "Chevrolet NEVER intended for that car to be a L78. NEVER."

   Read the above posted GM documents. They called out for it in the GM work order for it to be built as a L78 car and it was. Just because the work order then calls for it to be converted  to a L35 it still started out and was built as a L78.

  "The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period"  My car is a 4P car as is Grumpys car. Now are yoiu going to say Grumpys car is not a L78 because it has a 4P trim tag like my car ? I have no facts concerning a 3rd Pace car and never stated I did. A L78  Pace car driving around the track has nothing to do with my car and the # 2 car being built as L78's.


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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2007, 09:01:55 PM »

No this car did not pace the race.
Not sure what that car was called.

This was the only "actual" L78 camaro at the 500 race.

For some reason the car was not converted. Huh
Not saying it was first, just that it was "only' - it had a later build date.

No -- Gruppy's car had an L78 installed when it hit the street.
Those 2 Track cars did not.

If Chevrolet wanted L78 cars to pace the race- that is what they would heve built.
They changed their mind and converted them before delivery.

You can't have it both ways - you have to decide.
If you want a L78 -- nstall an L78 engine.
If you want to keep it ORIGINAL -- keep your L35 T400
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 09:14:08 PM by Pacecarjeff » Logged
KurtS
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2007, 09:11:24 PM »

OK, second warning for both parties.
Take out the personal comments. I don't really care what has occurred in the past on other sites.

This needs to remain a factual discussion, please park your baggage at the door.
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Charley
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2007, 09:25:40 PM »

They did not change their mind. It was all called out in the above posted work order. It is obvious from the paperwork  they ever intended for a L78 to Pace the race. The same paperwork calls for them to be built as L78 cars and they were. They were then converted to L35. No documents have surfaced that I know of that ever say they intended for  the Pace car to be a L78. Nothing that was at the track has anything to do with how the two actual Pace cars were built when they left the assembly line as L78's. The supposed # 3 Pace car having a L78 and a 4K trim tag would indicate to me that it was never intended to be a backup Pace car.
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KurtS
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2007, 09:32:21 PM »

Here's what I see:
#92 (Charley's car) and #90 were ordered as L78 cars. Norwood built them as such (#92's POP confirms that). After they were built, it would appear that Chevrolet decided the pacers should be an automatic. The work order is dated after the cars were built and well after the order was in the system. There was no automatic that could live behind an L78 in 67, so the two pacers were detuned to a L35/auto combination.

There was a pacer that at the event that was a 4K L78. This is an 04D car and is the car that Jeff is referring to. So far, it's the only IPC that's been found that has been a 4K car. Since it was a regular car (regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers) that Chevrolet provided to support the race, it would have been at the race in its factory configuration.

What did I leave out?
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Kurt S
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2007, 09:43:06 PM »

That sounds exactly right.  Smiley

There was only 1 L78 Pace car at the race.
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paceme
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2007, 09:43:50 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up Kurt. And just to clarify it a bit further this 4K car was NOT the #3 pace car, rather just a regular festival car.
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Steve Shauger
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2007, 09:49:29 PM »

If you can consider the ONLY L78 to make it out of production "regular"
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paceme
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2007, 09:55:17 PM »

I was referring to Kurts definition of regular, which you agreed with previously. "(regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers)"


Also you now agree that the statement you made " So if Chevrolet didn't want it to be a L78, why do you think it should be?
The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period." is not true.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 10:02:49 PM by paceme » Logged

Steve Shauger
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Charley
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2007, 10:09:34 PM »

It is very clear that the two Pace cars made it out of production as L78's also. The fact that they were later converted at engineering to L35's proves your above statement wrong.
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2007, 10:10:01 PM »

No way Steve - those 2 track cars were not L78's.
Chevrolet made those cars as L35's.  It's all there right in the paperwork.
Doesn't mater what the initial order was - When CHEVROLET was ready to deliver those 2 cars - they were L35's
And they will always be L35's in my opinion.
I will say it again--  READ MY LIPS -- The first and only Real 4K 67 pacecar is the #3 car. Period
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paceme
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2007, 10:14:57 PM »

Sorry, I pasted too much of your statement. Let try this:

Also you now agree that the statement you made " The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period." is not true.
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2007, 10:15:44 PM »

So based on the fact that you now finally admit that Chevrolet engineering converted the 2 cars to a L35 engine.
Because as you said a L78 was NEVER going to pace the race...

Your statements prove (as well as the conversion paperwork) - that it could not possibly be a L78.
That just made my whole case. Smiley

The Pace CArs were "delivered" as prepped L35's


It is so silly... again
You can't have it both ways - you have to decide.
If you want a L78 -- install an L78 engine.
If you want to keep it ORIGINAL -- keep your L35 T400

Chevrolet built and delivered a L35

Tell me yoiu have more- you are not baseing everything on those 2 pieces of paper?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 10:23:08 PM by Pacecarjeff » Logged
paceme
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2007, 10:24:18 PM »

Lets stick to the #3 car we were discussing, rather than make it too confusing , unless thats your intent. Since you only seem to agree/ understand Kurts statement, this is what you agreed with previously when Kurt stated it. Then disputed it when I stated it.

 "There was a pacer that at the event that was a 4K L78. This is an 04D car and is the car that Jeff is referring to. So far, it's the only IPC that's been found that has been a 4K car. Since it was a regular car (regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers)"

It was a regular pace car NOT a car that was prepped or paced the event, therefore it was NOT the #3 pace car.
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2007, 10:47:29 PM »

Jeff,
Slow down.
No way Steve - those 2 track cars were not L78's.
Chevrolet made those cars as L35's.  It's all there right in the paperwork.
Doesn't mater what the initial order was - When CHEVROLET was ready to deliver those 2 cars - they were L35's
And they will always be L35's in my opinion.
I will say it again--  READ MY LIPS -- The first and only Real 4K 67 pacecar is the #3 car. Period
Let's work on definitions:
Factory configuation - configuration as built by Norwood (in this case).

My statement says that both #90 and #92 were both factory L78 cars. Both were then converted to L35/M40 spec for the pacer duty.

Both were original L78 cars and neither were in that configuration at the race.

The 4K car is the only *known* 4K car that was at Indy, and the only *known* L78 in it's original factory L78 configuration at the race. There may be others, who know if they will ever surface.

I'm not quite sure why you refer to the 4K car as #3. It was one of many IPC there at the race. IIRC, only the festival cars were in the parade, and since it was not a festival car, it probably didn't circle the track.


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Kurt S
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2007, 10:59:47 PM »

No one was ever talking about anything except the fact that the #1 car was not delivered as a L-78.
It has become obvious to me that Grumpy's car was without a doubt - the first Chevrolet Delivered L78 Camaro

Not counting the initial test cars - which Grumpy was likely heavly involved with.
Since the 67 Track cars were delivered to the race as L35's, and that was the first time they were released from production, by GM
In my mind that is what they are  - L35's --Sorry if this upsets anyone.

I call it #3, because that is what the guy writing the book calls it.
He documented that it circled the track as the "something Huh " car,  I don't remember anymore.
And then it was set over on display.

You guys are twisting this around, and the arguments are getting incredibly BORING.  (not you Kurt) Wink
I am going to bed, all you guys should too.

Thanks for the PMs and emails supporting me - I appreciate all the encourgment.  Cheesy
(even thouigh no one would post)


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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2007, 11:03:28 PM »

While I can appreciate all of the history surrounding the Indy pace cars and their history, the Jenkins car is what really put these cars on the map.  Open up any hot rod magazine from summer of '67 until spring of '68.  The #777 car of B. Jenkins (Grumpy's Toy III) got more publicity and ink than any other Camaro during the 1967 model year.  That is a fact.  Also, it was on the cover of the Jan '68 issue of Super Stock.  

I was 16 when I first saw the Jenkins car race at Cecil County and Capital Raceway.  Beleve me when I say, this car took the NHRA Super Stock class by storm.  Words cannot express your emotions when you heard this car through open headers going through the gears down the quarter mile.  It was the Jenkins car that influenced most people to check off the L78 box on the Camaro order form at the dealership.

Jerry  
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Charley
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2007, 11:47:37 PM »

Jeff you are splitting hairs on delivery as a L78. The Pace cars left the plant-assembly lines as L78's. There is a protecto-plate for mine as a L78. They were released from production as L78's. They then went to engineering and were converted to L35's. I stated in a earlier post that the Grumpy car might have been the first L78 built to be sold to the public. I don't need to admit they were L35's, I never denied they were. Chevrolet built and delivered a L78. Chevrolet engineering converted them to L35's.

 As for the Grumpy car being what put these cars on the map I guess that could be true if you were a drag racer or read Hot Rod magazine but the bulk of the population were not drag racers and did not read hot rod magazines. I can appreciate your view Jerry but I also have to consider that you are a die hard drag racer and it really would seem that way to you.  I don't doubt that many of the L78 Camaros were ordered after seeing Grumpy run. There was a whole country that also watched the Indy 500. When I was a kid, the Indy 500 was a huge deal. I never paid attention to Pace cars but I know the 500 was big. The Camaro was big and it was Chevrolets answer to the Mustang. I think the Camaro was big without Grumpy and without The Pace car or the Indy 500.
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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2007, 12:14:45 AM »

Jeff,
I clearly defined what factory meant. Please define "Chevrolet Delivered".

Since the 67 Track cars were delivered to the race as L35's, and that was the first time they were released from production, by GM
In my mind that is what they are  - L35's --Sorry if this upsets anyone.
Those are two conflicting statements.
#90 and #92 were built (released) by production as factory L78 cars.
They were then modified by Chevrolet Engineering to L35/M40 cars.
That doesn't change the fact that they left the factory as L78 cars.

Let's keep Grumpy's car out of this topic. The pacers are the topic.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2007, 01:49:19 AM »

I'm not sure if I should jump in here but it's time to clarify what I believe Jeff is talking about in regards to the #3 Pace Car.
 
The 4K car that is in question, I believe, was one of the Display cars that could have been found at the Indy Museum or at the Murat Temple.
I have verified that at least two display cars were delivered to Indy. Just as today, the Museum always displays a mocked up Pace Car. In 1967, the original plan was to deliver 3 L78's. One for the Pace Car duties, one as a "back up" and one to be given to the winner of the race.

1967 was a year of many firsts, when it comes to the Pace Cars that were selected to pull the duties at Indy, this statement couldn't be truer. It is the first time in Indy history that the Pace Cars were considered modified. Although, not much by today's standards,but nevertheless modified for the day.
 Do to Speedway rules for Pace Car qualification and Chevrolet's hasty effort to debut to "the Industry" the NEW L78 motors in the Pace Car,  these cars had to be changed into the hybrid animals that Charley and the Clarey's have today..or more like what just Charley has today.
 The original third car was made into a test mule as stated by Phil. The fact that an L78 could not of had a automatic in 1967 is only true for public sales. The Chevrolet Proving ground Mechanics had the inherent problems that existed when mating a L78 up with a Turbo 400 worked out before the end of the first day of Pace Car trials.
  The only stated reason for the L78's being pulled is because they made a "Terrible racket" as described by one of the Indy Zone managers that I interviewed. And Chevrolet didn't want to chance anyone in the crowd or, god forbid, anyone watching at home to ask themselves..WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CAMARO PACE CAR SOUND!!!!!!!

 So when it comes to the car that Jeff is talking about, which I believe to be this car (or one just like it). The "System" had already had it scheduled to be a L78, not for Pace Car duties, but to show it off to the ever pressing crowds that visit the Indy Museum and the Murat Temple at this time of year, the NEW L78 motor available to the Camaro.   Smiley

 Note about the car pictured.

 The Pace Cars and Pace Car replicas were numbered based on there delivery date. This car is #124 which is perfect for an 04D build car. We already have an 04C car which is # 117. 
 There are no other vintage pictures to date showing other replicas with Flags. Just the true Pace cars which all had white rears!
 
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2007, 09:04:08 AM »


Thanks T, that is really cool stuff. Smiley

Lets see if I can explain how I feel in layman's terms...
I walk in to Burger King with my wife.
I order the Bacon Double Cheeseburger, Stella orders a salad. (she always orders the salad)  Roll Eyes

I had been fixing a broken distributor earlier, so I run to wash up.

So as soon as my burger comes through the end of the grill, it is taken over to the "Tech Station" for final preparation..
They add the lettuce, and other stuff, get it ready to go. Do you want fries with that?

I am in the restroom, so Stella decides to change my order.  I actually do need to eat healthier.. Wink
She yells out to the cook to make a change,  "just make it a Bacon - Lettuce - Tomato sandwich with cheese".
The sandwich is unwrapped, changed, then reassembled and placed in the out tray.

I come out and unwrap my sandwich and take a bite.
Just like my Burger, the car is only finished, when it is ready for public consumption.

Only at the point when it is available for someone OTHER then a employee to use it..
At any point before that - it is still a test car, a mock up, or an experimental vehicle.
It is just insane to think that I can hold up my sandwich and say "check out my wonderful Double Cheeseburger" Huh
A lot of the test cars were crushed, and I would bet they threw away my patties.
At any point they could have scrapped the entire project, instead they changed the drivetrain to L35.
and that is how the car was finished and made available as a finished product.

We worship these old cars now, but to GM it was just a product that they sold to the public.
And it is only what it is, at the time it was done being produced by the manufacturer - Chevrolet. Norwood or wherever.

That car was delivered and the final product was a L35 - no question in my mind - NONE
If there had been a problem replacing any component - Chevrolet would have moved to the next vehicle,
 and started over. I am really sorry CL that your car does not have it's original Engine - or does it?
You can't have it both ways - either it left production as a L78, or it didn't.

If CL still thinks that his car is still  a L78... I have only one question -- WHERE'S THE BEEF?


On a side note the #3 car will be ready in about 6-8 weeks.
It has been treated to a "no expense spared" complete (SUPER EXPENSIVE)  restoration.

The owner walked up to me at a car show back in like 96 or something  Huh
and said: "I just bought one just like that"  (like everyone else always say's) Wink
 Only this time I had actually seen the ad in the local little magazine - Car turned out to be a 1 of 1 - L78  0-1 67 Pacecar.  Smiley

It has taken this long to finish, and it will likely be the finest IPC in the country,  (Not for sale)
It has been finished by one of (or THE) top Camaro restorers in the world.

He can't wait to take both of  our 67 Pace cars and put them on display somewhere. sounds like a plan, but...
I am a little worried, that my original type car (not much restoration) will look like an old step-sister compared.  Cheesy

Excuse me sir... Can I have an L78 with my L78.  LOL Wink 


I am not doing this tonight. Roll Eyes 
My wife say's i talk to the Charley guy more then i talk to her.  Angry
We are going out to a nice dinner, and a first run movie this evening.
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2007, 09:16:24 AM »

This is yet again some serious splitting hairs. The argument seems to center on the definition of "delivery."

At least as I see it, Chevrolet Engineering isn't in the business of delivering cars, assembly plants did that.

As the documentation proves, Charlies car was "assembled" by the assembly plant as an L78, and according to the VIN's, body numbers, and date cordes, it was the very first one. The assembly plant "delivered" the car to Chevrolet engineering.

Per the work order, Chevrolet Engineering replaced the L78 drivetrain with an L35 drivetrain, and did other work to prep the car to pace the race and ensure it would hold together.

I've had the pleasure of seeing and touching Charlies Pace Car. It is truly remarkable, like stepping back in time. Charlie told me at that time that he still has the original title, and IT IS TITLED TO Chevrolet Engineering!

So let's put this to bed. If Chevrolet Engineering titled the car, they OWNED it, and therefore they did not "DELIVER" it to anyone!
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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2007, 09:57:16 AM »

It is actually titled to Chevrolet Motor Division, Indianapolis Indiana. I think that was a zone office ?
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2007, 10:09:00 AM »

oops, still makes no difference, at least not to me.
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2007, 10:10:50 AM »

So I guess you would have to call that car "day 2" I guess there is nothing wrong with that.
Might even be worth more that way??  Never know, - since Chevrolet did it and all?

[Remaining content deleted by Rich]
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2007, 10:35:47 AM »

It's his car, he can do what he wants with it IMO.

Interesting read never-the-less.  I at least learned more about the cars.
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2007, 10:40:36 AM »

It is the Indianapolis Zone Office. All the known Pace Cars were titled in the Zone name.
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2007, 11:19:35 AM »

Post deleted by Rich.
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2007, 11:40:06 AM »

Jeff,

This site welcomes polite and intelligent discussions.

I do not believe your recent posts involve either of those features. You are not adding anything constructive to this discussion. I would call it badgering instead.

Please discontinue posting on this thread.

We have only revoked someone's forum privileges once before.  Please don't become number two.  This is your first warning.  You have only one more warning available.
If any of this is unclear, please send myself or Rich a private message /email and we will be happy to clarify it.



Thank you,
Kurt Sonen




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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2007, 11:48:48 AM »

I believe that keeping it titeld in Chevrolet Motor Division is absolutely great...it adds to its provenance. My specialty insurance allows me to insure cars that are not titled/registered, so I see no problem.  
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2007, 12:41:19 PM »

Jerry, I hope you will follow up on the quest for the L78/Jenkins engineering work order? I think that information might be valuable for both the NHRA and Pace Car programs given the time line in question. I didnt get a chance to complete my initial query in the other thread but was just contemplating the idea of a new L78 RPO and the fact that we have engineering data on both coupe and convertible examples at roughly the same time period. It might also include information on an L78/M40 test combination? Something I think they might have been toying with regarding the 500 pace cars.
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2007, 12:43:13 PM »

It was also very fun to drive! Charley allowed me that honor at Vettefest last November.



There's an interesting point brought up on another forum regarding this...

Quote
I can't say that I agree with your thought process regarding whether CL's Pacer was a factory L-78.  It was certainly built on the assembly line as an L-78.  There are documented ZL-1's that had the AL engine pulled in order to move them off the lot and they are certainly considered ZL-1 cars today.



BTW, thanks to Kurt for his help with my brother's 1967 RS/SS 396 and I hope that the info that we gave to him and Daniel were of some value. Thanks for having this site available for people Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2007, 03:25:05 PM »

What are C B C vehicles? Maybe some type of test car or engineering fleet car?

In the last paragraph of the 2nd page of the GM documentation Phil posted above  it says that
" C B C vehicles" will be used to provide components then says power trains removed to be reinstalled in fleet vehicles.

Sounds like the work order is saying to swap the power trains from the pace cars with the power trains C B C vehicles?

Charlie, does your car have any numbers on the engine stamp pad?
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2007, 03:27:55 PM »

This is unbelieveable. I cant believe this post lasted as long as it did.

I am glad Kurt stepped in.

Nice car and piece of Chevrolet History Charlie!
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2007, 04:04:57 PM »

Thanks Jonesy. Joe. Yes my cars engine has the vin from another car but that car has not been found.
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2007, 06:20:45 PM »

Tony, an interesting post, which begs some questions. Smiley

The 4K car that is in question, I believe, was one of the Display cars that could have been found at the Indy Museum or at the Murat Temple.
I have verified that at least two display cars were delivered to Indy. Just as today, the Museum always displays a mocked up Pace Car.
What leads you to believe that an L78 car would have been one of the display cars and not an L35 car?
Couldn't this L78 have had other potential uses at Indy?

Quote
It is the first time in Indy history that the Pace Cars were considered modified. Although, not much by today's standards,but nevertheless modified for the day.
 Do to Speedway rules for Pace Car qualification and Chevrolet's hasty effort to debut to "the Industry" the NEW L78 motors in the Pace Car,  these cars had to be changed into the hybrid animals that Charley and the Clarey's have today..or more like what just Charley has today.
I'm not familiar with any requirements that Indy puts on pace cars. Do you have any documentation on this?
Are you saying that due to Speedway rules, the L78 couldn't be used? This I find hard to believe, since the L78 was a widely available RPO by May.

Quote
The original third car was made into a test mule as stated by Phil. The fact that an L78 could not of had a automatic in 1967 is only true for public sales. The Chevrolet Proving ground Mechanics had the inherent problems that existed when mating a L78 up with a Turbo 400 worked out before the end of the first day of Pace Car trials. The only stated reason for the L78's being pulled is because they made a "Terrible racket" as described by one of the Indy Zone managers that I interviewed.
There is the practical issue of making the L78/M40 combo work, but on a higher level, Chevrolet may have chosen not to use a non-available powertrain in the pacers. If the issue was solely a noise issue, then why not use a L35/M20 combo? It would have only required swapping out the engine.

Quote
So when it comes to the car that Jeff is talking about, which I believe to be this car (or one just like it). The "System" had already had it scheduled to be a L78, not for Pace Car duties, but to show it off to the ever pressing crowds that visit the Indy Museum and the Murat Temple at this time of year, the NEW L78 motor available to the Camaro.   Smiley
This is stated as fact. Is it or is it the current working theory?

Thanks!
Kurt
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« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2007, 10:14:52 AM »

I'm on the road while I write this.

CRG has, on a couple of very rare instances in the history of its forums, edited or deleted an especially offensive post.  We've never had to go to the extent of monitoring that this (and the previous related) threads have required.  CRG forum members have typically held themselves to a higher standard.  However, as the forum grows, and as we gain new members that come from other forums where they are used to a lower standard of experience, we may have to do some education.

To that end I have edited a number of posts in this thread that I feel were unnecessarily inflammatory. I have left the mostly tolerable content, which does not effect the technical content of this thread.

It is fine to express an opinion.  It is fine to disagree wiith someone.  It is fine to discuss and attempt to influence the readers to your view.  But please remember that disagreement does not mean that the person you disagree with is either an idiot or an underhanded no good.

There is no need to bring personal attacks into CRG discussions, and there is no excuse for it.

Please monitor yourselves - I don't want to have to do it, and neither does Kurt nor the rest of the CRG leadership.

Thanks for your adherence to this, and for your patience.

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« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2007, 11:03:13 AM »

Charley,

I want to thank you for shipping your Pace Car all over the country for Camaro enthusiast to see and enjoy.  There are not many people who would do this with a piece of history.  I appreciated the time you took a few years ago to shared all the documentation on this car and explain all the steps that took place in 1967 to produce the car.

The car is what it is and there is more than enough documentation to back it up.

Bud
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« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2007, 12:15:23 PM »

I watched this thread carefully and am happy with the outcome. I thank the CRG guys for staying strong with all the diversions. I've made it my lifes mission with regards to the time I have available for hobby & leisure to get the word out and promote the genuine uniqueness of the 67 Camaro as Pacecar. Maybe it is just a curse on me but theres more often than not heated discussions revolving around the 67 IPC? I know its a massive gray area and for 2 decades misinformation has spread rampant... but eventually, rest assured ,the truths will come out. I personally find it difficult (as bias as I am) to even begin to find valid comparisons between a car ( Grumpys) that was "first" to hit the battlefields of Drag Racing to #92 (Charleys) that was the darling of the world wide televised biggest single day sporting event in the history of civilization, whose reengineering after it was built is second to none in my mind.. An analogy I suppose is comparing Joe Frasier to Marylin Monroe...Both human,both great, but the comparisons stop there
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« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2007, 03:23:40 PM »

What are C B C vehicles? Maybe some type of test car or engineering fleet car?

It's not "CBC", it's "CEC" (Chevrolet Engineering Center); we maintained an in-house fleet of about 1200 company-owned cars and trucks in those days.
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2007, 03:37:28 PM »

I have been reading all this regarding the origin of the 375 HP 396, and find it all very interesting. It has left me curious with a couple of questions:
Wasn't there a 425 HP version of the 396 used in the 1965 Corvette? And if so, What is different about the 375 HP 396, and why develop it when a 425 HP version had already existed? Something to do with power/weight ratio? Or Corvette only? Thanks!  Smiley

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2007, 03:58:39 PM »

The CBC must be a typo on the work order.
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« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2007, 10:08:22 PM »

The '65 Corvette was a 396-425.  Same engine was in the Z16 Chevelle except for a smaller hydraulic camahaft.  It was rated at 375hp.

Jerry
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« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2007, 10:10:46 PM »

Is there a spell check on this forum?  Would save me from making these damn typos............camahaft!!!!!

Have 28 icons above and none of them spell check?

Jerry
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« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2007, 10:59:27 PM »

OK John, the reason I was asking about the official title and location of the engineering/tech center in a previous question is now most likely cleared up with the correction of the CBC to "CEC vehicles" at the bottom of the first page of the work order. If we look back to the top of the work order under DIST: could we have another typo with a miss shift of the number 0 behind the RCA heading? This would change the heading from RCA (10   ENG (2) and change it to  RCA (1)   ENG (2)  Any idea what RCA might stand for? I'm making an assumption that ENG is engineering or enginered.
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Pat Railsback
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2007, 02:06:13 PM »

"RCA" is a code for a distribution list (instead of typing all the names individually) - remember that all of these things were typed manually in those days - there were no word processors or office computers in 1967, and there were very few copiers - most things of that nature that required multiple copies were typed on mimeograph plates and reproduced on a Mimeograph machine.
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2007, 12:03:18 AM »

I sort of understand that and know you dont have a crystal ball Smiley Seems odd to have numbers in paranthesis following abbreviated distribution lists? Normally you see CC: locations at the end of a document. I learned to type on a manual typewriter and the first copier I ever saw filled an entire sizeable room. I have poured over this work order trying to make sense of the content and come up with more questions than answers. Obviously this two page 98168 work order is part of a document with at least 24 pgs. The other pages and possible additional engineering work orders contained within might still be discovered some day?  Whats a hobby worth without a little mystery and individual interpretation Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2007, 12:27:52 AM »

Pat,

 When you see the page number of 24 on the bottom of 98168, you are seeing the actual page number from the book in was copied from.
 The work order is certainly greater than just those two pages that we have, but how much greater is the question.
 
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2007, 12:45:33 AM »

Ahh...I see the 98168 work order is pages one and two of two and independent.
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Pat Railsback
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2007, 12:52:06 AM »

 It reads like a basic cover sheet for work to be completed.
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2007, 02:12:58 PM »

Many work orders ended up as a 2-inch-thick file by the time they were completed, with all the supplements and supporting documents; I worked with lots of them in the Corvette Group in those days.
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« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2007, 04:02:07 PM »

For future reference...  The # 1 Pace Car's L78 engine was assembled March 3rd. It is a 03C car. The L35 engine was blueprinted on April 3rd and it was dynoed on April 10th.
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« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2007, 09:49:44 PM »

charley......this sure is an intresting thread for sure......i'm wondering if the L35 engine could be from one of the CEC test vehicles since they were just going to tear the engine down and blueprint it anyhow, so the vehicle it came from might be one of the one's that got "crushed". anyhow all the bickering aside. the fact that the car is still around and "saved" is all that really matters. hope i get to see it in person someday.
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