Author Topic: CE motor stamping info  (Read 3362 times)

KurtS

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CE motor stamping info
« on: December 16, 2018, 06:28:24 PM »
There's been a lot of discussions about the letters after the CE code, e.g. CE9A45361. I happened upon this page in a pile of documents.
Kurt S
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bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2018, 07:57:35 PM »
Thatís great information Kurt and the first time I have seen it in writing.

I canít recall seeing any in 1969 that went to CE9Cxxxxx but plenty with CE9Bxxxxx.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 09:46:48 PM »
Thanks for posting that Kurt! Would you think the letters denote the items/assemblies in the same order as listed in the letter?
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

169INDY

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 11:04:27 PM »
Thanks for posting this Kurt,,,,,,, "Jim" aka CE9A49906
Funny they do not stamp them with the gap between the CE & the serial number

Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2018, 11:06:32 PM »
Right, no space. Itís not a serial number...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:36:08 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 11:28:30 PM »
Right, no space. Itís not a Not a serial number...

Actually it IS a serial number; required by GM for the replacement drivetrain (Eng/Trans) components!  It's a 'serial number' for the CE engines, and GM was prompted by the government to serialize the replacement engines/transmissions due to an issue originating with the state of Georgia.

I posted AN EARLIER GM document related to CE/CT serials here in CRG several years ago...   I learned about it around 25-30 yrs ago.  Here is that earlier thread re CE engines including the Aug 1967 document I posted at that time..
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=438.0


« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:32:33 AM by 69Z28-RS »
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
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60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
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bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 12:47:01 AM »
Gary, it is a serial sequence number and just because you are older than me - it doesn't mean you have to disagree with me.  And it doesn't me mean that you are always right. :)

Serial number usually means it can be tracked back to a specific assembly (think paper money, firearm, etc.)  Not completely true in this case. There were probably some internal records, but those are likely long gone.

If you are going to constantly nit pick every single post I make, it's going to be "not fun" for either of us.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:16:33 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

68camaroz28

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 01:12:19 AM »
Thanks Kurt!
Just think tomorrow that memo will be 50 years old. 12/17/68 to 12/17/18
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
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bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 01:13:56 AM »
FWIW, I have pics of pad stamps with the letter A after the year up to 1973 (CE3A57896), 1972 and 1974 stamps that use an N (CE2N23010 and CE4N23342) and what could be a 1977 stamp that is CE7P28022.

CE4N23342 is a large journal forged crank 327 short block that I own.

I also have a pic of an engine stamped CEA135856 - which may be an error since the A should probably be after the 1.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:37:04 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

169INDY

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 01:26:49 AM »
The document clearly reads "Serial Number".

You can bet "they" GM & the plants & divisions "USED" (Who cares How),,,, that Serial Sequence Number for sure.

JIM
Jim
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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 03:26:46 AM »
Bryon,

It's not 'nitpicking' when someone corrects you.   You made an incorrect statement, and in this site we all TRY to be as accurate as we can...  That's all...

And I cannot help it if you have fun being wrong..  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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KurtS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 05:39:28 AM »
Sorry, but I would have corrected that too. It's a serial number. Not sure if GM kept records for very long on them....

Yeah, it was a lucky find. Wonder what happened to CE9A50000 to CE9A89999, etc? Maybe those were assigned to the other engine plants?
Kurt S
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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 05:55:22 AM »
Thanks Kurt!
Just think tomorrow that memo will be 50 years old. 12/17/68 to 12/17/18

Tomorrow (17Dec2018) is also the 245th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party (17 Dec 1773) one of the events that precipitated the Revolutionary war.

AND ...
...
You can bet "they" GM & the plants & divisions "USED" (Who cares How),,,, that Serial Sequence Number for sure.

JIM


The CE code sequence that was stamped into warrantee replacement engines (and CT in trans) WOULD have been stored in GM's records in order to accurately assess further warranty rights of the car's owner (in case that replacement engine/trans needed repair) during the remainder of the warranty period.

IIRC the original issue re the state of Georgia had to do with insurance and title issues in the event of a stolen car...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

opelitis1

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2018, 10:30:02 PM »
I have a 3969854 block with  CE 060689 T0318 ET on the front pad..      Starter pad reveals  TO89  .
G9 9 is found on one side of the block in raised letter / numerics. 
Does this make any sense within the context of this posting?
Ted

bertfam

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2018, 11:32:00 PM »
Yes it does. It's a warranty replacement 396/325 (with a Turbo 400) for a 1967 or 1968 Chevelle, and was assembled on March 18th, 1970.

Ed
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ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 11:52:40 PM »
If anyone reading this thread has a CE block, and hasn't already contributed the casting and stamp numbers, please consider adding them to this thread: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12873.0;all
I have a few more blocks to update that excel spreadsheet with, so this'd be a great opportunity to gather more data points. Thanks!
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

Fred Mertz

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 02:51:42 AM »
The 68 Z/28 that I bought s my first car in '71 had a CE engine in it.  I had the car a couple of years before it started using oil and smoking on startup.  When I tore the engine down it all the right stuff inside. It sure made me feel better knowing that I had a real Z.  Back then we didn't know what we know now.  Wish I had known more.  I pulled the engine/trans/rearend out and sold the body to build a V8 Vega.  I wasn't all bad. The Vega was featured in the Sept. 79 Car Craft

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2018, 05:30:28 AM »
I have a 3969854 block with  CE 060689 T0318 ET on the front pad..      Starter pad reveals  TO89  .
G9 9 is found on one side of the block in raised letter / numerics. 
Does this make any sense within the context of this posting?
Ted

Actually NO it does not make sense. The T0318ET was not part of the original CE engine stamping. I would like to see a pic.

The T089 stamping in the starter pad area indicates it was assembled in August 1969.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bertfam

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 03:08:06 PM »
Crap. Right, I wasn't thinking. No assembly date or engine designation stamp on a CE block. Sorry 'bout that folks.

Ed
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69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2018, 05:33:45 PM »
It would be interesting to see a photo of the stamped pad on Opelitis1 CE engine.   It IS possible that the dealership mechanic stamped the additional characters 'T0318ET' into the pad when he installed the warranty replacement CE engine in the '67-8 Chevelle (which might have been in the March 1970 timeframe ??

Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 05:58:13 PM »
We've discussed the CE engines as 'Warranty Replacement ONLY', but reading parts of one of the original letters also implies that engines shipped to Parts Departments (for counter sales) may have also received the same type of serialized identification numbers...

See excerpt attached... with circled areas of text.  (please excuse my crude circled notations!).. :)    The first and second circled statements seem to state that both service replacement (warranty) parts AND replacement parts shipped to Parts Departments would get the serialized ID numbers!  And this would be in keeping with the Georgia requirement that all major components gets serialized ID numbers.   What do you fellas think?

Also, addressing the question asked by opelitis1, the 3rd and last circled statement states '... the service identification number is required IN ADDITION to the date stamp markings currently put on service assemblies.   The identification number is to be located on the area of the stamp pad that is normally used for the production date stamp.'   JohnZ had stated in an earlier post that such directives were not always followed by every part of GM... but that does allow that 'some' do, or sometimes did follow the directive to the letter (or at least as how they understood it)...


Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 08:07:42 PM »
Crap. Right, I wasn't thinking. No assembly date or engine designation stamp on a CE block. Sorry 'bout that folks.
Ed
There was actually another data point contributed by a member that had a 1969-cast big block with a Tonawanda assembly stamp on the pad as well as the CE stamp. It's listed in the spreadsheet shown in reply #104 of the thread I linked to a couple of posts above this one.
Maybe it was a production engine that failed quality control (hot run test?) and needed rework, ended up back on the engine assembly line again and became a CE......
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 08:44:17 PM »
Need a pic of the pad.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 09:40:06 PM »
Not sure when/how that data was provided, or if there was a photo. Will have a look over the holidays.
But the data on that block was-
Cast Number: 3969854
Cast Date: H 30 9
CE Stamp:  CE070400
Oil Pan Rail Date:  T099
Also stamped T0916KE on the pad.

And this second block's data from opelitis1:
Cast Number:  3969854
Cast Date: G 9 9
CE Stamp: CE060689
Oil Pan Rail Date: T089
Also stamped T0318ET on the pad.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

KurtS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2018, 02:41:11 AM »
I've seen the same thing on transmissions too (CT and trans code). In fact, I just sold one. I'll post a pic later...
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Mike S

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2018, 02:52:40 AM »
 I wasn't aware the transmission had a CT stamp. Was it only the major engine and transmission units that could have had the 'CE' or 'CT' stamp?

Mike
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69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2018, 04:33:29 AM »
Apparently just the engine *block*, whether it be a bare, fitted, or short block   and the Transmission (and I would assume either the full transmission (or perhaps the transmission case?)..  There was almost no information in the memos re transmission details.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 05:21:06 AM »
Mike/Gary,
CE and CT info is at http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#ReplacementEngines and includes this:
Quote
This numbering system applies to service engine assemblies, partial engines, fitted cylinder cases, cylinder cases, transmission assemblies and transmission cases.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 05:37:43 AM »
Yes..  all the replacement parts that have ID codes stamped into them..
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Kelley W King

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 12:22:30 PM »
For years I always heard and thought CE stood for ( counter engine ). Until I started reading CRG that is what I thought.
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bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 01:11:08 PM »
There were complete transmissions - stamped CTx (x for last digit of year) and then a serial sequence number.  They usually had an assembly date stamp.  These were complete Chevrolet Transmissions.

There were also bare cases - stamped CCx (x for last digit of year) and then usually a serial sequence  number. These were Chevrolet Cases, sometimes also called ďcounter casesĒ.  No assembly date on these, because they were not assembled at the transmission plant.

I have several of each.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 01:38:14 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »
Bryon,  Many of us would love to see photos of the CT and CC case stamps, if you could get a photo or three?  (I've never seen/noticed a stamped replacement transmission or case).
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2018, 01:28:02 PM »
OK sure, I took a couple of fresh pics.

This CT0 case (actually stamped as CT00 - incorrectly) was a complete M22 assembly.

This CC9 case was (and still is) just a bare case. Note this has an A in the serial sequence number.

The earliest CC and CT cases I have seen are 1968 (which makes sense based on the earlier letter for CE blocks, I think they both started at about the beginning of the 1968 model year).

The latest I have seen is 1974 (I have a CC3 case but not a CC4) but they were probably made longer than 1974 for service.

I am hoping to get some of this written up and added someday, along with some additional rear axle information.  Hopefully in the not so distant future.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:00:27 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2018, 01:56:56 PM »
Sometimes the CC cases were also stamped on the back of the main case, on the surface where it bolts together with the tail housing. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:17:51 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2018, 02:03:16 PM »
Thanks for the photos; they provide some interesting information on the *replacement stampings*.  As I had posted a bit earlier, the memos did not provide as much information on the CT stamps as they did for the CE stamps; ie no mention of where the stamps should be, and that is reflected in how the transmission plant interpreted the memo instructions!   ie. CC well away from the numerical sequence of the ID, and also on different lines!

Also there was no mention as all of the CC (for empty case), but it makes sense that the trans plant may have extrapolated that information to the empty case situation.   But it means that the plants (or GM) would have been required to store the unique ID information for at least the warranty periods involved, and perhaps longer?

Were these stampings always on the FRONT case?? 
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2018, 02:09:52 PM »
Gary, the transmission stampings were normally in the same location as the regular assembly stamps. Passenger side, rear, on the wide back part of the main case. 

Let me get a pic to describe better...

Sorry this was dirty when I took the pic a few years ago.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 02:15:36 PM »
Bryon,

You showed stamps in multiple locations (including the CC stamp on the rear - hidden when assembled into a trans), and I asked if all of the stamps were *somewhere on the front case*, and you replied..   NO...     no What??   Are all of your examples ON the front case? or not?
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 02:17:17 PM »
Did not understand your question at first.  Sorry.  Always on the main case, not on the tail housing.

A CC case may or may not have that second stamping on the "hidden when assembled" area. This is usually found on later (70s) cases.

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2018, 02:33:25 PM »
OK.   Thanks for clarifying; that substantiates my interpretation of the memos.

I'm curious why you have so many trans parts...  Are you a parts dealer?   buyer/seller? or ??
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2018, 02:42:03 PM »
OK.   Thanks for clarifying; that substantiates my interpretation of the memos.

I'm curious why you have so many trans parts...  Are you a parts dealer?   buyer/seller? or ??

The best description is probably "hoarder" of engine and transmission parts, especially CE engine blocks and CT/CC transmission cases, amongst other things.  lol  :)

I swear this only happened once (and it was only there for maybe a few hours), but there has to be a Jeff Foxworthy joke that can be tied to this...
"If your wife has ever tripped on a Muncie transmission case...................in your DINING ROOM........"

Now I am strictly limited to keeping them in the garage, basement or my storage trailers...  lol

« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 06:49:30 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 03:14:01 PM »
Are these transmission cases/parts that you've personally broken???   :)  :)

Are you 'shifting' challenged?   :)     (J/K).

I've a friend who for years bought all the broken/used Muncie transmissions, and then REBUILT them.   He's very good at rebuilding manual transmission (recently he assisted me in rebuilding the T10 from my '60 Corvette!)  He says he enjoys it; right now he has more than 10 Rebuilt Muncies sitting on a shelf in his garage.   I've ASKED him WHAT are his plans for these transmissions as I'm sure some would be very desirable to people with Camaros/Corvettes/Chevelles/etc who desire to *restore* their cars!  He's older than me, but not interested in selling...  even though he's more interested these days in building resto mods than restorations!??   :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 03:28:09 PM »
Nope, none of the Muncies are anything that I have personal experience with in breaking.  Some of these are complete functioning 4 speed units, some are "circle track" modified to 2 speeds, some are in need of repair and some are just empty cases that have been collected over the years.  Same with the engine stuff.

The only transmission I have ever broken (back in 1986) is sitting on the shelf as a reminder.  It is a Borg Warner Super T10 that had been rebuilt about 2 years before it's demise.  It came apart on a normal 4-3 downshift for no apparent reason.  There were hundreds of times that it could have potentially blown up for a good reason before that, but when it went, there was no real abuse taking place.  I was able to limp it about 30 miles (with noise that could damage your hearing) before the contact between the broken cluster gear and the input shaft ended...and caused it to finally give out.

My collection of parts is small compared to a few people I know.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 06:50:43 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Kelley W King

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 03:49:58 PM »
It,s OK Bryon, I have a friend who has a 427 on an engine test stand in his finished man cave plumbed to the outside. And it does run.
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
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Mike S

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2018, 03:52:40 PM »
 That must be the caves 'space heater'  :D
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 03:56:25 PM »
It,s OK Bryon, I have a friend who has a 427 on an engine test stand in his finished man cave plumbed to the outside. And it does run.

WOW..  I'd love see/hear that one@   :)

Re Bryon's wife tripping over the trans case in the dining room, I suspect some (or most?) of us have similar stories.. :)     When I first got married, was in the USAF and living in a one BR apartment, I had a Henry J I was working on in the base hobby shop.   While it was there, I had the 'extra parts' stored along one wall of our bedroom, including:  The interior (two buckets and rear seat), 327 engine block, 283 forged crank, 186 heads, and a few other parts, :)...   but I put them against the back BR wall, so it was difficult to trip over them...  think I also had some parts UNDER the bed... :)

hmmm..  I think I have some 'new' interior materials under my bed right now too!  and some burlap (just purchased) in the box next to our breakfast table.. :)  but wifey always complains within a day or two after 'moving it to the garage'...  :)

And my 'office' is so buried in manuals, books, notes, etc (from my car work) that we have to close the door when we have company!  ;)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bertfam

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2018, 04:29:08 PM »
If you want something broken, just let my son drive it! He broke an M20 (NOT the original) in the Camaro a few years ago (down shifting from 4th to 3rd), and just a few months ago he broke the rear end in the 57 (original stock rear end, doing burnouts at a show)!

Ed
Ed "Bert" Bertrand
email me!

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2018, 06:51:31 PM »
It,s OK Bryon, I have a friend who has a 427 on an engine test stand in his finished man cave plumbed to the outside. And it does run.

That must be awesome!
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2018, 11:26:14 PM »
Interesting. If 'CC' denoted a Muncie case only (no internals) then I wonder why that example Bryon posted was stamped with an 'A' prefix to the serial number? Based on the letter that kicked this thread off, the prefix only came into play to distinguish between levels of assembly.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2018, 01:37:17 AM »
Tim,

CC was an empty case as far as I know. For service or warranty.

CT was used for a complete transmission, also service or warranty. Yes, it was possible to buy a complete assembled Muncie over the counter.

I think the letter, A, B, C - was only added to the serial sequence number once the original numbers were used up. Once the numbers were used up with the A number, they went to B, etc.

Probably the same thing was done for engines. At least for 1968-1971, I have not seen a way to distinguish between the different levels of assembly or if it was for warranty versus over the counter.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2018, 02:03:16 AM »
Bryon I thought the GM letter that Kurt posted confirmed the previous hypothesis that the assembly stamp letter prefix to the serial number related to bare block, fitted block, etc. as it lists out the various assemblies available.
Have to say I read the letter 4 or 5 times trying to understand.....
Do you read it differently, that it just provided more blocks of serial numbers for use irrespective of application?
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2018, 02:12:53 AM »
Tim, that is not how I read the engine letter.

It is possible, that is what they meant, but I have not seen any proof.

I could be wrong.

But I am about 99 percent sure on the transmission stuff.  I have seen new CC cases in their GM box with part number. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2018, 02:29:53 AM »
Also it does not seem to fit in with this...
http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#service

The last five digits specify the service replacement unit sequence number. The group of numbers to be used by Chevrolet manufacturing plants are as follows:

       Engines
  Flint Motor Plant (L6 Engines) 00001 to 19999  and   80001 to 89999
  Flint V8 Engine Plant               20000 to 49999
  Tonawanda Motor Plant          50000 to 79999

Example: Number CE900175 designates Chevrolet engine - 1969 year, and the 175th unit produced for service at the Flint Motor Plant (L6).

       Transmissions
  Cleveland Transmission Plant    00001 to 14999
  Toledo Transmission Plant         15000 to 24999
  Saginaw Transmission Plant      25000 to 34999
  Muncie Transmission Plant        35000 to 44999
  Hydra-Matic transmissions will be numbered with the letter "H"
  regardless of the G.M. Division using the transmission.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2018, 04:10:25 AM »
The GM effort to serialize/ID replacement assemblies or parts had to do with the state of Georgia's requirement to uniquely identify replacement parts (whether warranty replacement or counter sales the say GM implemented), which would be USED to replace an original part which contained a unique ID number.   The *original unique ID number* was the vehicle VIN, which was only stamped into the front pad of the BLOCK for the engine, and the front case of the Transmission.   For GM to comply, they chose to serialize/uniquely ID ALL replacement parts they shipped which would have contained a stamped vehicle VIN (from the factory)- The part with the factory VIN would be removed, and a GM part (bare block, fitted block, short block, engine assembly Or front trans case, or transmission assembly) which would carry a unique IDentifer (the CT, CE, CC id) and the use would have to be recorded/stored by GM in order to comply.

The original GM internal memo addressed the blocks of ID numbers to be used by each plant for engines (CExxxxx) and transmission (CTxxxxx).  After the sequences were used up, the letter A was added and the sequence began again, then B...etc. 

The letter Kurt posted was NOT the first letter sent out (I have a copy of that somewhere).   I posted an earlier memo than the one Kurt posted (dated late in '68) in the 2013? thread this topic, and referenced that thread in response to Kurt's post.

To summarize:   the added LETTERS (A, B, etc) do NOT specify level of assembly, but instead are treated like another higher order digit to the sequence number.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2018, 04:43:44 AM »
Gary, yes I agree with your summary. Thumbs up!
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2018, 09:27:08 AM »
To summarize:   the added LETTERS (A, B, etc) do NOT specify level of assembly, but instead are treated like another higher order digit to the sequence number.
Unless I've missed something, I'm not sure how such an unequivocal conclusion can be drawn, in the absence of knowing the content of the referenced letters dated August 6th and December 9th 1968. Over many threads discussing CE blocks here, two theories have been proposed as to the letters observed before the serial number. First one that it denoted bare block, fitted block etc, and a second theory that it was just another batch of numbers to be used once the first round was used up.
I bought into the second theory, but the big question that I have wrestled with is, is it realistic to think that so many Flint small block engines would have required replacement under warranty, so early in the 1969 model year? Especially enough to require the release of more than another 4x that number originally allocated to Flint V8, by the fall of '69?
The first theory (if it could be proven correct) would provide some explanation as to why the letter prefixes were added to Flint allocation so early on, so I'm keeping an open mind.
Interested to hear other's take on this, but a lot more research is needed. Of course, finding those 2 extra GM internal letters would probably shed some light on this.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

Kelley W King

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2018, 11:51:26 AM »
My CE9 BB has no letter. dated 7-9-69. heads are 2-69 and car is 12A. So I think it was a shortblock ?
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
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bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2018, 02:11:01 PM »
Tim, remember the warranty period covered more than just 1969 cars. It went back several years.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

crossboss

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2018, 03:18:20 PM »
Boys,
Its been my understanding that since 1968 manufacturers were VIN stamping (or partial vins) on blocks, cylinder heads, transmissions and in some cases rear end housings because of the Feds requiring it for stolen parts IDs? OR was it simply as debated for warranty claim(s)?
Just another T/A fanatic. A new project in the works.

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2018, 03:25:01 PM »
Boys,
Its been my understanding that since 1968 manufacturers were VIN stamping (or partial vins) on blocks, cylinder heads, transmissions and in some cases rear end housings because of the Feds requiring it for stolen parts IDs? OR was it simply as debated for warranty claim(s)?

Thatís a different topic. Not on heads and not on axle housings.

We are talking about warranty stuff.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 05:46:36 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2018, 04:23:02 PM »
Tim, remember the warranty period covered more than just 1969 cars. It went back several years.

GM first initiated the CE/CT stamping in August of 1967, primarily to address 1968 and later vehicle parts, BUT... it seems most likely that GM instituted the SAME procedure from that point forward to address ALL warranty replacements of engines and transmission covering 1967 and earlier  cars which were still under warranty.

Tim:  I first had the same impression as you (that there must have been a helluva lot of warranteed motor work to cover that number of parts!).. but there were also letters (which I've seen) which allocated strings of numbers to various supplier plants, so every plant didn't have a sequence of 100000 numbers which had to repeat prior to getting to the A, B, etc.  and remember that Chevy produced a few million cars per year...

I've spent the last hour looking for copies of additional letters (which I've had before) which addressed some/all of this, but was unsuccessful finding them on my current computer.   Since I first gained access to these 'CE' letters (1990-92 timeframe via the Vettenet) I've gone thru a half dozen personal computers and probably that number of work computers (which I no longer have access to).  I have always TRIED to move such data when I transitioned, but I don't think I was always successful.   I've researched the CE issue since 1988 when I purchased a '69 Corvette 350/350 engine which was *supposed* to have been the original engine but which turned out to be a CE, and it was the original owner who told me it was original.  I found out after much work that the short block was replaced under warranty about 2 weeks after initial delivery and 20 yrs later, he didn't remember that!~
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

ZLP955

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2018, 08:15:43 PM »
Tim, remember the warranty period covered more than just 1969 cars. It went back several years.
Yes, aware of that. Yet there doesn't appear to be any additional letter usage on CE blocks prior to the 1969 MY, so something changed at that point. And surely failures that required warranty replacement would be happening with some consistency, pre-69 vehicle (since the 5/50 began) engine failures wouldn't all start to happen in one model year.....
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3 bumper, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA. Ex-Racer at Lions Dragstrip in Long Beach.

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2018, 09:27:28 PM »
Another thing to think about, 350s started in the Camaro in 1967, then for a lot more vehicles in 1968. A 350 blew up easier than a 327 or a 283 (shorter stroke) and there were fewer forged cranks in these engines. With more and more Super Sports out there and a general increase in racing, I think failures were getting to be more common. More cars were being abused.

In 1969 there had to be service assemblies for the 283, 302, 307, 327, 350, 396 and 427. Think about that.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 02:42:19 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

crossboss

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2018, 01:55:06 AM »
Another thing to think about, 350s started in the Camaro in 1967, then for a lot more vehicles in 1968. A 350 blew up easier than a 327 or a 283 (shorter stroke) and there were fewer forged cranks in these engines. With more and more Super Sports out there and a general increase in racing, I think failures were getting to be more common. More cars were being abused.



I agree. During this time period, 'Muscle Cars' were very popular as was racing. So warranty issues from blown engines seemed to become the norm. As I recall, during the 1970 model year, Ford installed factory rev limiters on their 'performance' engines to keep warranty costs inline. I believe Mopar did this too? Also, IF the customer disconnected the limiters, the good 'ol line of "Your warranty is void" came from your friendly service advisor at the dealer.
Just another T/A fanatic. A new project in the works.

opelitis1

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2018, 04:42:36 PM »
Good morning - Opelitis1 here.  I will need I guess an email address to shoot you a few pics of the CE 060689 TO 318 coding(s).
Ted

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2018, 04:47:55 PM »
OK, here it is.  :D
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 02:25:08 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: CE motor stamping info
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2018, 03:06:22 PM »
Pic posted, obviously not something done by the factory or dealership.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016