Another Garnet Red Z28.. sorta....

[69Z28-RS]

A post on the TriFive forum read as below:

I have a true X33 code Berger '69 Z/28... not a clone. 17,xxx original miles. As straight & solid as you'll find... no rust ever. Fresh paint in the original garnet red less than 3 months ago. New seats and carpet... all other interior components are original & in excellent condition (17,xxx original miles). 468ci Big Block dyno'd at 661 hp, TH400 trans, and a Dana 60 rear end. Very nicely mini-tubbed with ladder bar / coil over rear suspension, tubular front control arms, etc, etc, etc. Looking to trade for a NICE 2-door '57 210 or Bel Air...



It appears to be a very solid CAMARO.... but regardless of the codes, labels, original paperwork, mileage etc..  It's NOT a Z28 any longer...  not with a 468 ci BB in it...  it's just another drag car!   his email is:  stegehuismr@comcast.net

Gary

[cam69aro]

so no rust ever, the rest of the interior is perfect but the car is repainted and has new seats?  just don`t make sense

[ZLP955]

so no rust ever, the rest of the interior is perfect but the car is repainted and has new seats?  just don`t make sense

I wouldn't read too much into that. Original paint was probably faded, worn thin and cracked as lacquer is prone to that - especially if the car lived or spent time out in the weather. Seats wear, tear/rip, seams come unstitched, foam loses support, springs break. Even on low mileage cars. Most of us here would repair and recover, but others take the path of convenience and just replace.

[jdv69z]

Long live garnet red!   

It's on the Tri-Five Chevy site??

[69Z28-RS]

It was posted on the TriFive.com site yesterday or the day before.  The owner apparently wants to trade for a '57 2-door...   I posted here all that the seller posted including his contact info if you are interested...

[Kelley W King]

Seeing how there are 40k plus 69 Z,s and count rising daily a garnet red X33 with 17k miles is becoming common place. I hear that it still has it,s born with interior light bulb, wow.

[BULLITT65]

BUT its a true X33 car!, "not a clone"

Who cares now? The days of that car representing a Z/28 are long gone.

I have seen clones that I would rather own

[69Z28-RS]

AGreed Austin!    Putting a big block in a Z28 is exactly the same as installing Z28 badges on a BB car, OR for that matter putting Z28 badges on a VW~   I think I've seen all these situations at times in the past... so WHY does a seller 'advertise' the Z28 emblems on a BB Camaro??

Hmmmm..  maybe putting 427 badges on my Z28 would help it's appeal?   

[RS Copo]

Do you guys feel better now? I realize it wasn't the cars owner that was the OP but my God is it any wonder so many people are just lurkers on car websites and don't want to post anything?

[X33RS]

Do you guys feel better now? I realize it wasn't the cars owner that was the OP but my God is it any wonder so many people are just lurkers on car websites and don't want to post anything?

I'm with you.  I was never one to dis someone's car.  I've noticed people can't seem to even appreciate it when a real Z is found with an untampered tag, regardless of engine.  I know there were a lot of 69 Z's made but you sure don't see many "real" ones these days.

[BULLITT65]

Do you guys feel better now? I realize it wasn't the cars owner that was the OP but my God is it any wonder so many people are just lurkers on car websites and don't want to post anything?

That why I come here, to feel good....

The seller of that car is trying to talk it up, and hit all the highlights. Can't blame him for that, but come on.

If the car was built as some BB 1/4 mile rocket, than talk that angle of it up. IMO the case for it being an original Z, I think just falls on deaf ears.

Apologize if I sounded to negative, but I was unimpressed with the description.
BUT:
(lurkers are going to lurk, posters are going to post, moderators are going to ...
have egos....hahahha)

[RS Copo]

No need to apologize,Bullitt.I might have come on a bit strong... I had a suspicion I knew this car,so I talked to one of my best friends who knows the car better than I do.From the contact email name given in his add,it matches the owners name of a 69 Z/28 he knows well.A friend of his family purchased the car in 70 or 71,and raced it,possibly in stock(along with my friends father,who ran a matching Z/28)He thinks Paul,the family friend,sold it to the present owner.It has never left the Grand Rapids area. For whatever reason,it was backhalved at some point. I could not open the pictures in the add but the last time time I saw the car,I think it had Crager SST's on it.
  I also respectfully disagree with the feeling that once an car is modified,it loses it's original identity.If true, there are  more than a few Z/28's,Copo's etc.,that were restored from race cars that are worthless,lol!   Take care.

[BULLITT65]

Totally agree, there are definitely some historic race cars that were raced heavy and put away wet. These cars really take a devoted fan, and deep pockets to bring back. I guess if the ad read race as is, or we have all the original components to restore, or date correct components to restore it may hold more weight to really underscore that it was an original Z.
If I saw it at a show I think I would be interested in its 1/4 mile race history, than its brief life as a Z/28 though.

[Z10Mike]

"Do you guys feel better now? I realize it wasn't the cars owner that was the OP but my God is it any wonder so many people are just lurkers on car websites and don't want to post anything?"
I could not agree more.
I happen to have an old war horse without its original 302 and 4 speed. It was a drag car that was thrashed heavily with a 427 and a THM400.  When I was a kid, a big block was a COMMON transplant into a Z28 to give it more fire power to match the looks on the street or strip.  I don't represent my car as numbers matching etc. and would never consider it.  It IS a legit Z28 by birth.  Do I enjoy it less because it doesn't have the 302 under the hood?  Not a bit.  And, I have no issues with folks who put in the work and have the luck to get their cars to the point where they are perfectly representing what was driven off the line at Norwood.  But disparaging fellow enthusiasts who do not have the same ability for whatever reason is not my modus operandi.  And that is the main reason I will never join a club dedicated to a particular model.  I ran into this same mentality with my Vette at an NCRS event and that soured me forever.
So to all the guys with cars that have the pedigree and not the components:  Ignore the criticism, enjoy your car and know there are plenty of other car guys out there that are doing the same thing...
Let the flaming begin.

[169INDY]

Let the flaming begin. ( Should read discussion ensues)

When cars are for sale on the open market & miss-represented  the equation changes

As William says Buyer Beware, it just depends on which side of the equation you are on,  that will greatly influence  an owners / sellers motivations.

[cook_dw]

Nevermind found it.  Also FWIW I couldn't see the pic in Gary's first post until I created a login over on Tri-5


https://www.trifive.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194134&highlight=X33+code+Berger+%2769+Z%2F28




So let me make sure I understand a couple of you that are shitting on the car because it was modified from stock form and now is not considered a Z any longer?  Is there photos showing the trim tag or legitimacy of the sellers claims of it being a Z?

[X33RS]

"Do you guys feel better now? I realize it wasn't the cars owner that was the OP but my God is it any wonder so many people are just lurkers on car websites and don't want to post anything?"
I could not agree more.
I happen to have an old war horse without its original 302 and 4 speed. It was a drag car that was thrashed heavily with a 427 and a THM400.  When I was a kid, a big block was a COMMON transplant into a Z28 to give it more fire power to match the looks on the street or strip.  I don't represent my car as numbers matching etc. and would never consider it.  It IS a legit Z28 by birth.  Do I enjoy it less because it doesn't have the 302 under the hood?  Not a bit.  And, I have no issues with folks who put in the work and have the luck to get their cars to the point where they are perfectly representing what was driven off the line at Norwood.  But disparaging fellow enthusiasts who do not have the same ability for whatever reason is not my modus operandi.  And that is the main reason I will never join a club dedicated to a particular model.  I ran into this same mentality with my Vette at an NCRS event and that soured me forever.
So to all the guys with cars that have the pedigree and not the components:  Ignore the criticism, enjoy your car and know there are plenty of other car guys out there that are doing the same thing...
Let the flaming begin.

I'm of the same thought process.  We had a survivor Bloomington certified 71 454 vette with 32k original miles.  Got all kinds of flack from the vette crowd because we proceeded to drive it, wife drove it daily for about a year and a half to work, I even took it to the dragstrip and had some fun, ran 14.30s at 98 mph with 3.08 gears.  I was shunned by the vette crowd, LOL.  We sold the car 3 years later with 46k on it for twice what I paid, and had a ball with it.  Had other vettes but never associated myself with that crowd after or since.
   We still own Fords, Chevys, Pontiacs etc...and that's not going to change.  I like them all, which is why I don't care to join a particular club or group with that one track mind mentality.  Just bores me.
   More related to the subject, I had 2 good friends that both owned real X code Z/28's.  Both ironically were Cortez Silver cars, restored and very nicely done.  One ran a 502 in it, and the other ran a 406 sbc in it.  Both retained 4 speeds and 12 bolts and for the most part were basically stock Z/28's with engine transplants.  I viewed them as no less of car, I liked them both, and they were real Z/28's, just missing their engines, which isn't unusual as most muscle cars lost their original engines, even when just a few years old.  One caught some flack later when he decided to put a tunnel ram on the 502 and cut a hole in the original ZL2 hood, lol.    But that's the kind of stuff everyone did back then.   They also weren't fetching the kind of money they do now so....   Times change.  I don't fault anyone.  We're supposed to have fun with these cars, that's what I own them for.

[X33RS]

Nevermind found it.  Also FWIW I couldn't see the pic in Gary's first post until I created a login over on Tri-5


https://www.trifive.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194134&highlight=X33+code+Berger+%2769+Z%2F28




So let me make sure I understand a couple of you that are shitting on the car because it was modified from stock form and now is not considered a Z any longer?  Is there photos showing the trim tag or legitimacy of the sellers claims of it being a Z?

I like it!!   That looks pretty damn good to me.  Typical street machine we always saw in the 70's 80's, just taking it a few steps beyond "day 2".  Regardless of mods, still a real Z if tag is present and untampered which I gather is the case from what I'm reading. I'd own it and drive the wheels off it.   Does he want to trade for a Nomad?     

[janobyte]

Well put x33 agree
Car is pretty, configuration probably low 11, high 10 sec...not scary fast, but enough to suck your gut in a bit, if never rolled that quick,,,fun!

Seems we had this conversation a few years ago. I always figured you can always take them back: Jerry M's record setting 67 Z. If you desire.

Around 16 years mine rolled around with a 406 backed by a 350 full manual trans.Never bothered to take the fender badges off.

I do get however when people get put off by bait words in ads, me, I really don't care that much.

Great site, always helpful, lets not inadvertently insult anybody.

[KurtS]

Let the flaming begin. ( Should read discussion ensues)

And I appreciate where the discussion headed..... I don't think this is an elitist site, nor should it be.

[BULLITT65]

Well put x33 agree
Car is pretty, configuration probably low 11, high 10 sec...not scary fast, but enough to suck your gut in a bit, if never rolled that quick,,,fun!

Seems we had this conversation a few years ago. I always figured you can always take them back: Jerry M's record setting 67 Z. If you desire.

Around 16 years mine rolled around with a 406 backed by a 350 full manual trans.Never bothered to take the fender badges off.

I do get however when people get put off by bait words in ads, me, I really don't care that much.

Great site, always helpful, lets not inadvertently insult anybody.

So I am curious: Jano (or any other member) for this car is the mention of it being an original Z/28 fall under "click bait" or do you think  that it significantly adds to the story fo this car. In other words what did you perceive the seller mentioning it for?

thanks

[janobyte]

Adds to the story of what path a factory performance car took.

[69Z28-RS]

Here is my sole problem with the original ad, and other such ads:

When the Z28 was 'born', it was born in order to run as a road racer in the Trans Am series (5 liter limit), thus the SHP 302, along with mandatory 4-speed, disk brakes, and HD suspension.    The '302' makes the early Z28, just as an all aluminum 427 'makes' a ZL1!   The 'Z28' emblem came long later simply to differentiate is as what it was .. a specially configured car for 'road racing' in a 5-liter limit category!

As far as I'm concerned, once a big block is installed, it is NO LONGER a '67-69 Z28~    If the seller had stated that the car was born as a Z28 in 1969, but the car now housed a big block engine as a drag racer/street racer/etc, it would not have bothered me, but one cannot have their cake and eat it too ... It's also misleading to people who don't know what a Z28 is... which would cause some to go away believing a '69 Z28 had an optional big block'!  WRONG!

Saying it's a '69 Z28 with a big block is a contradiction in terms, and that was why I optioned the title of my post with .... 'sorta'... 

[janobyte]

Wasn't out there trying to pass it off as a 1000 point 6 figure car. He has
something cool, bored, wants to trade. Sort of a waste of time
stirring a debate.

Good note, from an old post,(John Z) picked up a correct water pump from Mock. Way more then I thought I'd ever pay for a pump,,but I'm worth it. 

[cook_dw]

Gary, your line of thinking would lend to someone having all the "correct" components for a Z on a 6cyl rolling chassis and that you would consider it a Z.


BTW this car has a legit trim tag, vin & doc proving it was ordered by Berger Chevrolet.

[RS Copo]

That's the Camaro I was referring to.I didn't mean to put anyone on the spot when I posted about 1:00 am after a long day(try dealing with a RacePak for 2 weeks that shows the clutch graph when and if it wants to,lol.) But I agree with Kurt,it's a good discussion.
    I also have long dealt with people,and I would not lump Bullett65,Gary or Kelley in with them, who gave me grief for 30 years when raced my Copo. It was amazing how many 'experts' said X-11's were 350's and there was no such thing as a RS Copo.

[X33RS]

Gary, your line of thinking would lend to someone having all the "correct" components for a Z on a 6cyl rolling chassis and that you would consider it a Z.


BTW this car has a legit trim tag, vin & doc proving it was ordered from Berger Chevrolet.

Well there ya go.  That seals it for me.  It's an original Z and you can't take that away from it.  Once a Z always a Z

Besides the road racing deal Gary, there were plenty that tore up the dragstrips as well, and even held some records and won some championships.  Strickler comes to mind.  So they were well respected little drag cars too.

Shucks I've been thinking about pulling the 302 out of mine too.  With my wife daily driving it she's put nearly 10,000 miles on the fresh build already.  I figure why wear it out when I have a fresh 355 sitting on the stand.  Dress it like the 302 and she can put all the miles she wants on it.
But I guess it wouldn't be a Z/28 anymore, lol.

[RS Copo]

A bit more info on the car.My friend recalls the 302 was already gone when the second owner purchased the car in the very early 70's.It was tubbed around 1990 and had almost no street miles on it when he sold it to the present owner around 96.
If nothing else we are giving Mike and the car some more exposure. GLWS.

[cook_dw]

If he would consider just selling the car I think it would go a lot faster.  But for now he only wants a trade..  No matter what its history during its life as a racer its a X33 D80 car.  No matter how you slice it; it's a Z car.   I wouldn't care if it had a Cummins diesel between the fenders I'd still consider it a Z.  For the record the car is very, very clean and appears to present great.  If I were in the market for a 69 Z that I wanted to race this would be the car I would consider.

[RS Copo]

If he would consider just selling the car I think it would go a lot faster.  But for now he only wants a trade..  No matter what its history during its life as a racer its a X33 D80 car.  No matter how you slice it; it's a Z car.   I wouldn't care if it had a Cummins diesel between the fenders I'd still consider it a Z.  For the record the car is very, very clean and appears to present great.  If I were in the market for a 69 Z that I wanted to race this would be the car I would consider.

He had the car listed on RacingJunk a while back.I think he would sell or trade it.

[janobyte]

Oh, I so love stories of these old war horses!

[cook_dw]

I have messaged him off and on all day and asked if it was for sale and he said he didn't wanna sell right now and only looking for a trade.  idk 

[RS Copo]

Oh, I so love stories of these old war horses!

You have a PM.