69 Body Sag

[gbowman]

Looking for some opinions as I'm a bit baffled at this one. My 69 Pacer body sits lower or (sags) on the driver's side a little over an inch lower than the passenger side. My first thought was weak leaf springs, but it turns out that isn't the issue. I have the car sitting on a completely level floor, air pressure the same in all tires, etc... When I measure various points on the frame to the floor, they're pretty much the same on both sides, not even a 32nd of an inch off. When I measure from the floor up to the bottom of the center of the rear fender well, the driver's side is 1 3/8" lower than the passenger side, so I have to assume it's something in the body. Anyone ever seen a phenomenon such as this??? Thanks!

[69 Zee]

Have you looked inside your trunk ?  The rear shock hasn't ripped thru the shock tower has it ?  That's about the only thing I can think of that would let the body drop while the frame remained the same distance.

[BULLITT65]

Well just thinking out loud. while it is unibody in the rear, if your front body bushings on the opposite front  (Kity corner) were missing or rotten, could that tweak it enough for the rear corner to be high on one side and lower on the other? I would think that would affect your frame measurement though

Another thought, I have seen plenty of twisted Camaros from what I guessed was to many hole shots with to much HP. Usually you see metal damage from it right at the roof seam to the body though. (right behind the passenger quarter window).

[gbowman]

The shocks don't appear to be damaged nor are they pulled through anywhere. I guess it's possible that I have a bad/weak shock on the low side, as they appear to be original to the car, but I haven't swapped them out yet to confirm. I checked all the body bushings and they seem to be intact.  I venture to say the car hasn't participated in any hole shots as it's an original, unrestored car with only 82K miles and retains the original factory sheet metal as far as I can tell based on the date code stampings. Thanks for the input and I'll keep looking.

[69 Zee]

Yes, the shock or shock area would be the first thing I'd address.
Is this problem something new that just occurred?

[olddragracer]

I do not think the original shock absorbers have any effect on the resting height of the car

[olddragracer]

pardon my use of the English language

[gbowman]

Yes, the shock or shock area would be the first thing I'd address.
Is this problem something new that just occurred?

No, it's not something that just occurred, it was like that when I bought the car a few weeks ago. The car still drives and rides fine, it's just a bit annoying to me when I look at it!

[69Z28-RS]

I do not think the original shock absorbers have any effect on the resting height of the car

You are absolutely correct, unless it's the incorrect shock for the car ... which might cause an issue...
.. and the english language is what most of us *try* to use...

[william]

Unlatch the top and measure the gap from the bow to the windshield header. If it is not uniform all the way across, there may be some twist in the structure. 1-3/8" is a lot and if the body were that badly twisted the door alignment would be off also.

[69 Zee]

I do not think the original shock absorbers have any effect on the resting height of the car

You are absolutely correct, unless it's the incorrect shock for the car ... which might cause an issue...
.. and the english language is what most of us *try* to use...

Well that can open up a whole another can of worms.  I assumed this just happened and you knowing the car.
Since you just got it, have you tried going back to the previous seller and asked them about it ?  And was it noticed at time of buying ?
I agree if the frame was twisted that much you'd see some of your other panel alignments off, specially the doors.  How do they look?

[69z27z87]

I saw basically the same thing in my car for years.... the body was twisted from high RPM launches. Driver's front comes up and pushes the passenger rear down. And then everything on the car twists... so other things don't look so out of alignment.

We took the whole back of the car apart... quarters, trunk floor, rear tail, wheel housings.... to repair rust. We put it back together straight... then dropped the trunk lid on... holy cow!... touched the sheetmetal on the drivers side while almost an inch up on the passenger side...Took some careful work to bend that piece back into shape.

Also, using a straight edge I found that passenger side A pillar had more bow in it than the drivers side.

The twist can be very subtle across the whole car...it can be hard to notice... when I used to look through the rear glass from way back of the car... I could see the rear package shelf was not parallel to the dash....

I did have a frame shop pull on the assembled car many years ago... it helped, but we could not pull enough to totally level the car.

[gbowman]

I'll take some more measurements this evening at various points and see what I come up with. Thanks for all the input thus far. 

[BULLITT65]

another posibility as you say its all original and you don't think it is from hole shots.

If the car was jacked up at one point, possibly just one side or with one jack stand holding up one corner for a long (over a year) extended period of time, you could have the body warp a little like what you are describing. As mentioned I would think you would see other evidence such as door gaps that would also have resulted,  especially since the difference side to side seems so large.

[WorkinProgress]

Does your convertible have all GM springs, front and rear? I have heard many of the repro front springs are not a matched rating even though they are sold as a set.

You didn't say if your car is a S/B or B/B.

I parted a '69 B/B RS convertible back around 1980. When I removed the front springs, on top of them were GM rubber spacers. They come in two sizes 3/8" and 9/16" thick to adjust trim height. One car will use two of the same thickness. Possibly your car has them and one has fallen out or when a new spring was installed one was not reinstalled.

I will dig out the NOS spacers and take pictures if there is any interest, only if someone will post them for me.

Hydraulic shocks do not affect the ride height, they are just dampers.

                                                                                                     - Warren

[gbowman]

It's a S/B car. I haven't looked at the front coils that close but will do so this evening and let you know. A lot of the original factory markings are on the car, but I don't know if the spring tags/markings are present. The rear springs are the originals. I replaced them this past weekend but it didn't make a difference anyway, so I may just have them tested and/or re-arched and put em back in to maintain the originality aspect. Thanks.

Gary

Does your convertible have all GM springs, front and rear? I have heard many of the repro front springs are not a matched rating even though they are sold as a set.

You didn't say if your car is a S/B or B/B.

I parted a '69 B/B RS convertible back around 1980. When I removed the front springs, on top of them were GM rubber spacers. They come in two sizes 3/8" and 9/16" thick to adjust trim height. One car will use two of the same thickness. Possibly your car has them and one has fallen out or when a new spring was installed one was not reinstalled.

I will dig out the NOS spacers and take pictures if there is any interest, only if someone will post them for me.

Hydraulic shocks do not affect the ride height, they are just dampers.

                                                                                                     - Warren

[Sauron327]

another posibility as you say its all original and you don't think it is from hole shots.

If the car was jacked up at one point, possibly just one side or with one jack stand holding up one corner for a long (over a year) extended period of time, you could have the body warp a little like what you are describing. As mentioned I would think you would see other evidence such as door gaps that would also have resulted,  especially since the difference side to side seems so large.

If been in the collision and resto business for decades and gravity will not produce the results you suggest.  The car would have to be severely compromised and ready to fail at most spotwelds. The owner should have a qualified tech evaluate the car. Easy job for one in the industry on a daily basis.

[jvb6648]

For what it's worth and future reference the guy that did my body work put it on a frame straightener, clamped it at 4 points and squared it before he cut anything. He said it was off a little. I think he only put it on a rotisserie to prime it. Very pleased with the outcome.

[BULLITT65]

another posibility as you say its all original and you don't think it is from hole shots.

If the car was jacked up at one point, possibly just one side or with one jack stand holding up one corner for a long (over a year) extended period of time, you could have the body warp a little like what you are describing. As mentioned I would think you would see other evidence such as door gaps that would also have resulted,  especially since the difference side to side seems so large.

If been in the collision and resto business for decades and gravity will not produce the results you suggest.  The car would have to be severely compromised and ready to fail at most spotwelds. The owner should have a qualified tech evaluate the car. Easy job for one in the industry on a daily basis.

Well I don't doubt your what you have witnessed. I actually saw a 56 chevy that had been on a lift for so many years, it did sag on the front and rear. It was a 2 door hardtop, and you could begin to see an issue with the door gap, but more of an issue with the frame bowing. I know the camaro is uni body Vs. full frame, but it didn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to me.

[69Z28-RS]

..caused perhaps by structural deterioration from 'oxidation issues'... 

[BULLITT65]

This was on a restored car.

[gbowman]

Unlatch the top and measure the gap from the bow to the windshield header. If it is not uniform all the way across, there may be some twist in the structure. 1-3/8" is a lot and if the body were that badly twisted the door alignment would be off also.

No gaps with the top unlatched, thanks for the suggestion though. One thing I noticed last night that stood out when I took some additional measurements, the distance from the bottom of the subframe to the floor (measured at the same place on both sides) is one inch lower on the driver's side. Thanks again for all the input. I'll get it figured out eventually.

[69Z28-RS]

This was on a restored car.

hmmmm....  so no rusty cars have EVER been *restored*...??   

[BULLITT65]

Sure it could have had rust under panels, but looking at how the weight was unevenly distributed, was the main cause. And that's what I was getting at for the OP.

So if the floor is closer on one side, what could cause that other than body bushing for the Subframe?

[L78 steve]

Its probably body twist. I had a 74 Z28 that was driven into a ditch and it twisted the body. No panel damage or gap issues just the height issue as you state.

[Kelley W King]

I am thinking bent subframe. Maybe the front and A frames,Ect. If bent slightly on ends near the bumper it could raise or lower the end towards the middle. Not a unibody but my corvette is not quite level in the front. It was hit on the front corner years ago, but you can,t see with your eye where it is bent. Aligns and drives well

[william]

Could be the mounts on the sub frame for the bushings have rusted through. Another common 1st Gen malady.

[gbowman]

Could be the mounts on the sub frame for the bushings have rusted through. Another common 1st Gen malady.

No rust on this car anywhere. Thanks for the reply though.

[169INDY]

"The rear springs are the originals. I replaced them this past weekend but it didn't make a difference anyway, so I may just have them tested and/or re-arched and put em back in to maintain the originality aspect. Thanks.
Gary"

Make sure you do not torque suspension items till it is on its Feet-

Just a suggestion which I bet you already knew all about

[Dave C.]

Has any work been done on the front end?  Front springs can break, plus if not installed properly, can set the vehicle uneven.  I recommend removing the front springs and check both and install so that end of spring is in pocket in subframe.

[69Z28-RS]

Good suggestion Dave!~  When I removed my original front springs, the lower coil was broken off on one of them, and I never knew it!~

[68Zproject]

That spring pocket can be a big problem.  I've had it out on two of my other cars. On one, the end was above the indent and the other it was about 180 off.

[L78 steve]

Usually if the springs aren't clocked correctly they will rub where they pass through the frame.