Author Topic: 68 RS With Z28 Motor - Was this a Dealer Install Option (Read 9097 times)

Top38 · « **on:** August 21, 2018, 02:21:39 PM »

Looked at a 68 RS a few days ago. The seller stated it had a Z28 302 motor installed by the dealer along with the headers in the trunk so he was selling it as a Z28. Was this ever offered to anyone's knowledge. I have heard of the headers in the trunk but not dealers swapping motors. The seller said he has a bunch of paper work but I didn't have time to go over it. Assuming it is a 68 RS with a dealer installed 302 motor, what would something like this be worth. Overall the car is in good shape but needs to be totally striped and painted correctly, paint peeling all over. I has the standard interior with the console & gauges along with a 6K factor tic toc tack,, clocks works too LOL.

Thanks

bertfam · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2018, 02:54:19 PM »

There were dealers that did engine swaps (Dana, Nickey, Baldwin, etc...), and the 1967/1968 302 engine was available as a service part (P/N 3923217), so it's possible. However, you'll need to go through the paperwork to see what he has.

BUT!!! This would have been an expensive way to get a Z28! It would have been much cheaper for the original owner to order the car from the factory than to go through all this hassle and expense of buying a non-Z28 then having the dealer order the engine and install it!

What's the VIN?

Ed

KurtS · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2018, 03:06:30 PM »

A motor does not make the package.
Muncie, 12-bolt, discs, springs - all make up the Z package.
Until we see what the paperwork says, it's just an RS that someone swapped in a 302.

Top38 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2018, 04:03:14 PM »

It has front disc brakes, 12 bolt rear, munice 4 speed. I don't have the VIN number at this time. I wasn't looking for a Z28 when I stopped. I was just looking for a solid 68 to restore. I did not have time to look at the paper work either. Assuming want the seller claims is true, would this car just be an RS with Z28 options? How would you put a value on it?

bertfam · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2018, 04:16:01 PM »

Without more information, there's no way anyone can place a value on it. You would need to post pictures of the car and pictures of the documents before we could even start to venture a guess. Right now, 1968 Camaro Rally Sports go from a few thousand to the upper 30's to low 40's depending on condition, documentation, options, etc... 1968 Z28's are going for probably double that, but again, it depends on condition, documentation, options, and if it's numbers matching or not. If I were to throw out a number, I'd guess a non-numbers matching Rally Sport in fair to good condition would probably be worth around $10k to $20k.

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2018, 04:55:56 PM »

Ed

Thanks, based on my thoughts assuming the paper work /story is true I was thinking around 20K would be a ballpark value also. If a dealer installed this motor would they also stamp the block to match the car too?

Condition of the car is:
- Interior needs a rug and head liner - black standard interior
- Body looks very solid, no bondo
- under carriage also looks very good
- Paint needs to be totally stripped and redone - many peeling areas
- Power Brakes, no power steering
- trunk looks good, upper shock mounts have no rust around them
- one hide away light cover not working
- Original AM radio
- Console gauges work except fuel level

bertfam · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2018, 04:58:02 PM »

Quote

If a dealer installed this motor would they also stamp the block to match the car too?

most likely not. Dealers could care less about the "numbers" back then.

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2018, 09:08:24 PM »

Here is the VIN, have paper work coming tomorrow
124378N383758

bertfam · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2018, 09:41:21 PM »

Ok, the car was on ebay 10 years ago by seller martinautosalesllc our of Fredericksburg, VA. It was listed as a Z28 with a factory warranty replacement engine (see below). The only "proof" at that time was the glove box sticker that showed the E70-15 tires, but of course this could have been changed at any time so that's not really proof.. It had a Muncie transmission, 12 bolt posi rear axle, 4 piston disc brakes and a 6k tachometer (which appears to be a reproduction), but there wasn't any documentation mentioned.

There weren't any date codes shown in the auction so who knows. And by the way, back in 2008 the car didn't have the Rally Sport option (again, see below), so if it has it now, it's been added.

I'd be interested to see what paperwork you get and also the date and suffix codes on the transmission and 12 bolt.

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2018, 09:50:06 PM »

Well that certainly looks like the car except the RS hide a way lights on it now. It also has the 69 cowl hood as shown in your picture too! Paint is junk now though, bad metal prep so it's peeling in many areas. It has the factor console with gauges and a 6K tic toc tack. Add states CE 302 motor, M22 trans, definitely a 12 bolt rear, and 4 piston cal's.

How did you find out it was on EBay?

Thanks

bertfam · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2018, 09:55:01 PM »

Quote

How did you find out it was on EBay?

The CRG has been tracking these cars for 20 years (even longer for some), so we have histories on a lot of these cars. COMPLETE histories for some, and partial history for others.

Ed

HOT3O2 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2018, 11:25:55 PM »

You guys amaze me with the information you have stored away.

Top38 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2018, 05:29:10 PM »

Quick question, did all 67 and 68 Camaros with front disc brakes have 4 piston calipers? and didn't the single piston deal come out in 69?

69Z28-RS · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2018, 05:34:35 PM »

Quote from: Top38 on August 28, 2018, 05:29:10 PM

Quick question, did all 67 and 68 Camaros with front disc brakes have 4 piston calipers? and didn't the single piston deal come out in 69?

Yes, and Yes.

bertfam · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2018, 05:36:04 PM »

Quote

Quick question, did all 67 and 68 Camaros with front disc brakes have 4 piston calipers? and didn't the single piston deal come out in 69?

Correct on all counts. However, in 1969 the 4 wheel disc brake option (RPO JL8) also used 4 piston calipers.

Ed

uscrichter · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2018, 09:14:37 PM »

4 piston in the front as well as the rear on JL8 package? Like Corvettes

bertfam · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2018, 09:31:35 PM »

Quote

4 piston in the front as well as the rear on JL8 package?

Correct. More info HERE.

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 29, 2018, 03:40:05 PM »

back to the car in question, finally got the paper work, nothing there to confirm it's a Z28 car so it's likely not. Assuming the CE 302 motor is in good running condition, what is the going rate for this motor?

Kelley W King · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2018, 05:53:12 PM »

You probably want to post the cast date?

69Z28-RS · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2018, 06:02:48 PM »

I would not sell that motor until you know ALL the information about your car; it *could* turn out that the CE was installed in this car by a dealer as a warranty replacement, and if so, that is the BEST block you can have for your car...

68camaroz28 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2018, 08:13:47 PM »

Quote from: 69Z28-RS on August 29, 2018, 06:02:48 PM

I would not sell that motor until you know ALL the information about your car; it *could* turn out that the CE was installed in this car by a dealer as a warranty replacement, and if so, that is the BEST block you can have for your car...

100% agree Gary! Need to know what one has before doing anything.

169INDY · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2018, 10:11:59 PM »

Quote from: 69Z28-RS on August 29, 2018, 06:02:48 PM

I would not sell that motor until you know ALL the information about your car; it *could* turn out that the CE was installed in this car by a dealer as a warranty replacement, and if so, that is the BEST block you can have for your car...

I am in the same Boat; interestingly enough the short block is "hate to use the word" Better engineering wise (??) than the 67/68 (Obviously not better for originality or matching sense)
My 68 has a CE9XXXXX

Having paper on the claim has been very rare, I want to say in all the years I have seen someone produce it ONLY once or twice on line as scanned proof.

Not sure if "TOP38" purchased the car & is asking for a CE302 motor value to part it or what>

JIM

Top38 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2018, 02:11:42 PM »

No I have not purchased the car. Based on not having any real documentation that the car is areal Z28, I assume it is not and just has a CE 302 motor. Assuming that, restoring the car with vs without the 302 is where my question is coming from. The intent is not to restore to sell, but drive and have fun for a while. If it's not a real Z28 or it is but can't be proven though documentation, what difference does that make?

The real question is what is this car really worth as it stands now? It is overall a solid car form my quick inspection, needs a total stripping of the paint and redone, interior is good but needs a rug and a headliner. Owner states motor runs good but I haven't heard or drove it yet.

69Z28-RS · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2018, 03:38:44 PM »

One could ascertain to 'his own satisfaction', that the car was (or was not) originally a Z28 by careful checking of *everything else*... ie. if a car under warranty received a replacement short block via a dealer, then generally ONLY the short block was replaced, so the heads, intake, carburetor (and all other parts installed on the engine) were simply re-installed on the new block. Does the engine *sound/run* like a 302 should; a Z28/302 short block replaced in a Z28 during warranty would be *correctly* built per Z28 specs by the Flint assembly. Is the casting number on the block correct for a Z28? Is the casting date on the block consistent with the PERIOD of the warranty on a '68 Z28? If the cast date on the CE block is before the car was built, then it is not a warranty CE block *for your car*. If the cast date on the CE block is significantly AFTER the warranty period for the '68 Z28 then it is likely NOT a warranty CE block for your car. Check the other parts in the engine compartment like booster, MC, etc

* So check all those parts to ensure that those parts are a) correct for a '68 Z28, and b) dated consistently with the VIN of the automobile (the orig short block being gone prohibits date checking based on the engine)...

* Check the 'other parts' not associated with the replaced short block to ensure they are correct for a Z28 and dated consistently with the car's VIN.. ie. bell housing PN, transmission (should have a VIN to match the car and be a Muncie 4spd installed on a Z28 in '68), rear end (should be a 12 bolt probably BU? dated consistent with the car's VIN production date. Check the springs, brakes, *everything* that you can to see whether they are consistent with Z28 production.

* Are there parts installed on the car that are NOT possible for Z28, and they appear to be 'factory installed', then that would be a negative...

IF I checked all those things, and the parts/casting nos/ dates/etc were 'good' for 75-90% of the Z28 parts, then I would feel pretty confident that the car WAS in fact a Z28 from the factory, AND if I wanted a Z28 for myself, to drive, then I would pursue it. If you only want a Z28 for *resale*, OR if you don't really want a Z28 at all, then do not pursue it.

169INDY · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2018, 04:30:48 PM »

GARY Very Well put!
"A preponderance of the evidence"
This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence

JIM

bertfam · « **Reply #25 on:** August 30, 2018, 05:51:01 PM »

You guys are putting a lot of faith in that CE being a 302! Even if it started out as a 302, after 40 years (and potentially multiple rebuilds), it could be anything! And, there's no proof that this particular engine was a dealer install for THIS car. That's one of the problems with CE engines and no paperwork. No history.

Nothing on this car proves a Z28. All of it could have been added after the car left the factory (like the Rally Sport option!!)

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 30, 2018, 06:41:50 PM »

Ed, I am with you here. I can easily determine if it is a 302 without any disassembly. So the question in my mind anyway, becomes, what's a documented Z28 worth vs a so called real Z28 with no documentation vs a regular Camaro that has all the Z28 parts and is there any real difference between 2 & 3? (Assume all cars are in the condition of this one in question so its apples to apples with out the original numbers matching motor)

169INDY · « **Reply #27 on:** August 30, 2018, 07:23:10 PM »

Conversational; "I Think"

Gary & I were giving an opinion on how to approach the "CE" equation on all cars.

I get it the Topic is the Blue beast pictured above, Sorry I drifted of in generalities;

Anyone here touched (Inspected personally) this car?

bertfam · « **Reply #28 on:** August 30, 2018, 08:15:11 PM »

Quote

So the question in my mind anyway, becomes, what's a documented Z28 worth vs a so called real Z28 with no documentation vs a regular Camaro that has all the Z28 parts and is there any real difference between 2 & 3?

A documented Z28 is worth more than an undocumented Z28. An undocumented Z28 is worth more than a Camaro dressed up as a Z28.

What you're will to pay for a car is up to you and no one can help you there.

Ed

Top38 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 31, 2018, 02:52:51 PM »

Ed

It's been a while, a long while since I was involved with this kind of thing so I have not real feel for what these cars are generally going for these days on the open market which is why I asked, just to get a ballpark number. I did find NADA list values or these cars also.

169

I have seen the car, spent about 15 mins looing at it on a lot. Did not have time to spend anymore that day.

So before I get serious about it I am just trying to get a feel for what's it worth vs typical values of cars on the market now.

I wasn't specifically looking for a Z car, just a good solid car to work with.

thanks

bertfam · « **Reply #30 on:** August 31, 2018, 03:13:19 PM »

NADA isn't a good guide. Neither are auctions like Mecum or BJ. The best guide you can use is to go on ebay and look at the COMPLETED SECTION for cars that sold. That'll give you a much better idea of what they're going for.

As for this car in particular, treat it like a standard 68 that's had the RS option added and an engine replacement unless you can find something proving it's a Z28.

Ed

KurtS · « **Reply #31 on:** September 05, 2018, 05:43:37 AM »

If you want a manual and it has a 12 bolt, that adds value.......

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Author Topic: 68 RS With Z28 Motor - Was this a Dealer Install Option (Read 9097 times)