68 z/28 question of authenticity

[67jeffreyt]

A dealer is selling a 68 z/28 as authentic with a repaint and counter exchange 302.  He claims a Jerry Macneish is an official authenticator.  There is no build sheet, car has m22 4speed, rallysport option, tach and gauges with console.  Vin is 124378N383758.  Any input is appreciated. Dealer wants 45,000 car is in New Hampshire.

[67jeffreyt]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/610473909035462?view=permalink&id=1679010218848487

[67jeffreyt]

It's a Facebook link,

[bcmiller]

Not everybody has Facebook and for even those that do, that’s not the best way to post a link.

Try this

http://motionperformancellc.com/1968-chevy-camaro-z28

[KurtS]

That's a lot for a car that needs paint and is NOM.
Where are Jerry's appraisal sheets? Should be 2-3 sheets.

[bcmiller]

Jerry is a widely accepted and respected authenticator/appraiser.  But without you seeing his complete report on the car - from the current owner, it’s just the owners word.

[x66 714]

Exchange engine wouldn't be a "MO". It would be a "CE"...Joe

[bcmiller]

I asked the dealer about a few things on the FB page.

[ZLP955]

Try this
http://motionperformancellc.com/1968-chevy-camaro-z28

Saw the dealer's statement that the car was soda blasted and prepped incorrectly, now needs paint again. Likely that the paint job failed from the soda film not being neutralised.

[rick 67]

 Rally Sport with no back up lights ?  Squared corners for the Vin plate access. I would guess major work has been done, just not very well. Oh I would run away very fast !

[67jeffreyt]

What does a counter exchange engine mean? Warranty replacement under factory warranty?  Sorry about my link, I don't do a lot of sharing on this site.  Basically this car is an undocumented overpriced clone? Without authentication.

[bcmiller]

If the block is stamped CE and then a series of numbers it means it’s not the original engine.  CE stands for Chevrolet Engine and yes “back in the day” if an engine failed under warranty, that is what usually was put in. But it could have been put in years later, or yesterday.  Without proof with paperwork that particular CE engine block was put in under warranty, just consider it a period correct “not original to the car” block.

See this link. 
http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#service

It is very hard to do a complete and accurate assessment of a car from just pics. An on-site inspection is always needed if you want to buy a car.

By the way, CE stamped engines are around. I have several - big block and small block. None are for sale.

[bcmiller]

Seller says axle and transmission are original to the car. But no pics. So we will see.

It does have some issues. Soda blasting works but yes you have to prep correctly before paint. Dad and I had a 64 Impala SS 327 convertible soda blasted in about 1987 then painted with red lacquer. Paint on it is still very good to this day.

$45k seems high, nice paint will cost $5000 to 8000 minimum - unless you have connections or can do it yourself.

[bertfam]

The car was on ebay back in 2008, but at that time no mention of Jerry's certification. Here's a picture of the pad (see below), and the ebay description.

1968 Camaro Z28 ~ 4 Speed
This is a very rare 1968 Z28 Camaro. There were only 7199 Z28’s produced in 1968. As you know, there are no real identification codes to prove that a 1968 Camaro is what it is. Those who do their research will see that all the tell tale signs show this 1968 Camaro to be a Real Z28.
It is equipped with:
CE Replacement Engine
4 Speed Muncie Transmission
12 Bolt-Posi w/Multi-Leaf
Very Rare Original 4 Piston Front Disc Brake Calipers
Very Rare Original 6K Red Line Tach
Bucket Seats w/Center Console
Cowl Hood
Front and Rear Spoilers
Factory AM Radio ~ working
Original Tire Pressure Sticker on Glove Box Door
that states E70x15 which is Z28 Only
This Camaro has a very solid body that seems to retain all of its original panels. There however is a small patch in the trunk pan, but the trunk is still very solid as it shows in the pictures. The interior seems to be mostly original and in great shape. It runs and drives great and sounds awesome with the relatively newer dual Flowmaster exhaust system. I would consider the paint on this Z28 a very nice driver quality paint job with just a few scratches and chips. This car is impressively solid and straight. There are new BFGs on all four corners. This ‘68 Z28 would make anyone proud to pull into the local cruises and shows.
Overall this is a great buy on a rare 1968 Z28. You also would be in an investment muscle car that you didn’t have to break the bank to buy.

Tach looks new, not sure about the tire pressure sticker. Not worth anywhere near the asking price in my opinion (typical dealer markup), but I would contact Jerry and see what he says if you're serious about the car.

Ed

[bcmiller]

Uh - I looked at more pics. I am too low on my estimate for the cost of a repaint in this car...

[67jeffreyt]

Too much work for me.   I was just asking because 68 seems to be the most difficult year to determine a real car, either SS or z/28

[67jeffreyt]

On the engine stamp it looks like CE A, on this site it states it should be a number for the year after the CE, so is that wrong also on this cars engine?

[bcmiller]

On the engine stamp it looks like CE A, on this site it states it should be a number for the year after the CE, so is that wrong also on this cars engine?

The number after the A is a 1 - so its a 1971 assemby.

[67jeffreyt]

Oh ok thank you

[ds1]

having the Protecto Plate is the only way to truly verify any 1968 Camaro.   There are several things that give you an Idea if a car is a true Z car.  Leaf springs, wheels, brake booster, master cylinder, alternator.   Many of those parts get changed for many many reasons.   Jerry MacNeish is such a polarizing person.  Especially here on the east coast.  I mentioned his name at two different car shows an had people snap around and tell me he was a crook.  I have no opinion either way.  I had spoken to him.  He was nice and took time to talk to me.  He has published many good books about the cars and their special parts.   I used to me active in spotting fakes, but have focused my attention on other things.   As stated earlier, the seller  should have Jerrys report and should have NO PROBLEM showing you and providing you a copy.  Also I would personally call and ask Jerry if he had ever Verified the car.  Lots of fakes any more.  It make me mad that people twist word to lie, but not lie in their eyes about a car they are selling.   It has become a free for all, with buyer beware your problem.   I am by no means an expert, but have learned a lot buy reading the good and the bad stories.   Arm yourself with knowledge and go with your gut.  THIS IS HANDS DOWN THE BEST CAMARO SITE ANYWHERE.  I had owned  a 68 Z28 RS M22 4.56 posi car.  It had the protecto plate.  I had been wrecked so the engine trans and disc brakes were all gone.   The interior was removed, including the glove box door with the 15 inch wheel sticker.   It did have the original 4.56 posi rear in it with the 4 leaf springs.   I paid fair money for it and spent plenty on it.  I was approached by some one who asked if I would sell.  He caught me at just the right time.  I sold my most attainable dream car realizing there are more and I can come back to that someday.  I still own 4 first gen cars so no big loss for me.   I took a quick look at the car and see many of the special parts missing.  All I can say is arm yourself with knowledge and try to back up anyones statement.   

[z28z11]

having the Protecto Plate is the only way to truly verify any 1968 Camaro.   

I don't disagree with what you propose, but just like to add that other forms of documentation (like dealer invoices, MSO's) are good. too. Almost anything nowadays can be faked, cloned or duplicated - P-O-P's included; The more documentation you can collect, the more solid the case for originality. And you are right - this is the best site for trained, experienced and knowledgeable support of First Gens, without question. I've read Jerry's books forever, know them front to back, but I still learn something new just about every time I sign in at CRG.

Regards,
Steve

[bcmiller]

Yes, there is more than one way to document a 68.

[68 Ragtop]

Too much work for me.   I was just asking because 68 seems to be the most difficult year to determine a real car, either SS or z/28

It seems to be, but it isn't really. The only thing 67 and some 69 have extra to help is the trim tag, which is easily reproduced or replaced from a real car. Reproduced is sometime easy to spot, but not always. Replaced with a real tag from another car, not so easy to tell.

There is no short cut to determining a real car, and if you reply on a trim tag alone you will get burned. In addition, all 1969 LOS cars and early Norwood cars have no X codes, so same as all 68's.

I once checked what year was the favorite owned among the people who know these cars best, the CRG members. Can you believe it is the 1968 Camaro?

[HawkX66]

That's an old friend of mines shop.

[67jeffreyt]

All input is appreciated

[bcmiller]

That's an old friend of mines shop.

See if you can find out if the M22 is original and the axle code, please.

They haven’t answered any of my questions.

[HawkX66]

That's an old friend of mines shop.

See if you can find out if the M22 is original and the axle code, please.

They haven’t answered any of my questions.

I'll see what I can do,  but I haven't talked to him in years. I know someone that still horse trades with him. I'll see what he says.

[bcmiller]

Transmission is from a 65 full size, not original. They tried to get the axle code but didn’t look in the correct location.

[67jeffreyt]

I'd say too much and possibly not a true z car

[jeff400w]

I looked at this car last week, just spotted it driving by. I'd be happy to answer any questions about what I saw.

[Kelley W King]

What 65 fullsize would come with a M22?

[bcmiller]

The transmission in the car is not a 1965 M22.  Its a 1965 M20 or M21.

There were VERY limited numbers of M22s in 1965. 

[69Z28-RS]

What 65 fullsize would come with a M22?

Probably an option with the 396/375 hp engine...  (In the Impala/BelAir/Biscayne line.   I DO remember 396 engines with 4 speeds being available in the '65 Impala...)

[bcmiller]

You are correct Gary.  Full size (L78 only) and Corvette where the only vehicles that COULD get an M22 in 1965. Production was very low, 57 total units. Source, Alan Colvin.

[bcmiller]

There are those who think M22s were only available in 65 Corvettes.

There are none known to exist in 65 full size. No full size cars have been verified as original M22 cars. Not saying they were never produced, but none are known to exist today.

[bcmiller]

Jerry has not looked at the car.

Anyone interested should look the car over very closely.

[BRG Z28]

Bob Harris at Camaro specialties 716-652-7086 has a beautiful original 1968 Z28 for sale. The car is extremely clean (floors and trunk are perfect”, original turquoise car with black stripes, RS, original black deluxe interior, 456 gears, original trans,  I am not sure if the engine is original.  If I was not working on one already, I would be buying it!