Author Topic: Exhaust Advice Needed  (Read 15937 times)

bheston

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Exhaust Advice Needed
« on: March 17, 2018, 10:27:03 PM »
Hello.  I'm looking to upgrade my exhaust on the '69 SS I just bought.  Looking at the exhaust that is on it now, it looks very nice.  However, it doesn't sound very aggressive.  I wanted to get some opinions on the exhaust that is installed.  Does this look like an expensive system that someone painstakingly built to be as original as possible or is this average and I don't need to feel bad tearing it off and installing something a little more noisy.  I tried to attach a picture.  Thoughts?

z28z11

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 11:42:33 PM »
Wow - how aggressive do you want to be ? That's a reproduction of the chambered exhaust system, a system that came standard on early '69 high performance cars, and an optional (and extremely noisy) system available up through May of '69, when it was discontinued due to noise complaints and a lot of owners enduring ticketing because of it.

You can replace it with a louder system, to be sure, but it will take larger pipes and higher flow mufflers from any number of sources; if your want for originality still holds, they are still an expensive and desirable addition to any performance Camaro, originally equipped or not.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 11:52:20 AM »
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply!  I'm learning as I go and it seems the owner of this car had aspirations of a true factory-correct restoration.  The car is not loud.  It's actually no louder than the factory exhaust on my 2010 Silverado  ???

I would like it to be a little more aggressive.  Here are more pictures.  Perhaps this provides more clues.  This is a numbers-matching 350 engine and I have the original invoice and protect-o-plate documenting its SS birth.  Also, the car only has 15k original miles (at least that's what I was told).



bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 06:53:22 PM »
Might not be loud because of how the engine was built. What does it have for a camshaft?

Welcome to CRG. Looks like a very nice car. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Kelley W King

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 11:13:44 AM »
I agree about the cam. I had a 396 with flowmasters that was really calm especially at idle. A little cam goes a long way. Beautiful chambered exhaust.
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KevinW

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 11:33:24 AM »
Wow, they really tried to get it to GM freshly built condition, but how did they miss the backwards installed valve covers or the air cleaner from some other car? And how did they get the coil to mount on the pass side??? its supposed to be on the drivers side. 

BULLITT65

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 04:37:14 PM »
It appears to be a very clean car minus the couple miscues Kevin mentioned. (But those are easily fixed).
You may want to ask the seller where they purchased it through. Some of the stainless systems sound to tin can to me. Maybe post a youtube link so we can hear what your car sounds like?

1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
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bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 07:15:40 PM »
Great information. I will try to get a YouTube but it might be a few weeks.

Could someone kindly send me a picture of the correct air cleaner? I would like to get that corrected because thatís bothering me  :-\

bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2018, 01:08:31 AM »
Not factory correct on the air cleaner, but I like it and personally I would just use it. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 01:11:51 AM »
See this link for some 69 350 engine pics.

http://www.69pace.com/1969_ssL48.htm

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 11:01:43 AM »
Looks like the air cleaner is from a 1970 Z/28.  I must have the "futuristic" air cleaner option - very rare  ;D

1970 Z/28 Engine:

bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 11:05:46 AM »
Here is a overview of my engine.  Can you spot any additional errors?  So far I have:

1) Wrong air cleaner
2) Valve covers mounted incorrectly
3) Coil mounted on pass side and should be on drivers
4) Hose clamps wrong


bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2018, 11:13:10 AM »
More pics

69Z28-RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 02:07:35 PM »
I agree with Bryon; I'd keep the air cleaner...  :)   Find an original one at your leisure if you feel the need...  :)

* I might have an original Air Cleaner for your car if you want to trade...  :)
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bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 03:28:10 PM »
If you want to have it look completely original thatís fine. Some guys like to be different. Some guys modify cars right away. Thatís ok.

Itís YOUR car so do what you want.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

BULLITT65

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 03:33:27 PM »
Well the original air cleaner isn't super expensive. He could purchase one for shows and then swap then in out as he pleases.

If it were me, I would swap the valve covers, and locate the coil over to the drivers side of the intake, and then just keep my eye out for an air cleaner.  :)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 03:47:16 PM »
Valve covers need to be swapped. No argument there. 

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

X33RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 03:59:30 PM »
I used to see owners swap valve covers all the time on power brake cars back in the day.  Makes it much easier to get oil in the engine.  Some people still have that thought process it seems.


If that chamber exhaust isn't aggressive sounding, I'd guess the engine has no compression and/or camshaft in it.   Typically a small block with some compression and camshaft will make that exhaust system pop and cackle pretty good to the point of obnoxious.    Which is why many were recalled and eventually removed from the option sheet all together.

Our Z was built after chamber became non-standard, so it is equipped with the deep tone muffler setup.  Up until last year it still actually had it's born with exhaust system still intact on the car (now pulled and stashed away)

Here's a sound clip with it's 49 year old exhaust system.  Even this system is a little loud a cackly.  11:1 compression 302.

https://youtu.be/SDMeBoQpf58

Here is the Pypes transverse 2 1/2" system with "X" and tailpipes turned down behind the quarters 67-68 style.  Deeper tone, not cackly anymore, but was a bit too loud for my wife.

https://youtu.be/5dTNw93VPEQ

So I adapted factory reproduction 69 2" tail pipes to the system to help tone it down a bit.  It's now very quiet inside the car and comfortable to carry on a conversation.

https://youtu.be/IZ0HlEY7b74     

Here's a ride along inside the car.  Just the first minute and a half is all that's needed to get an idea of the noise level inside.

https://youtu.be/5vX6hVQ_cKw   


70z28lt1

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 05:14:28 PM »
"Coffin" or "clamshell" or "flanged" whatever you want to call it power steering pump.  Those weren't on cars until 71.

z28z11

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 01:59:17 AM »
Change the ground cable to black.

Exhaust manifolds are wrong - those manifolds are for an automatic with Therm AC heat stove. You'll need to add a smog system to be totally correct.

Add spark plug shields -

Still, a good looking engine bay and car. I like it -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

HawkX66

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 12:20:27 PM »
Here's a video of my 69 with an extremely mild 408ci. 402ci bored .030" over. It has 2" Doug's Headers (which were a little too big for that motor) and the Flowmaster American Thunder system on it. I've always been real happy with the sound. It's a nice happy medium.




The sound quality on this one isn't quite as good.




And last, but not least.



Dave
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X33RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 03:27:45 PM »
Video clips aren't working for me for some reason.

I ran both the American Thunder and the Force II FLowmaster transverse systems.   The American Thunder was hella loud with a ton of interior drone, after 6 months of daily driving I removed it. Switched to the Force II.   The Force II was more mellow, but oddly enough Flowmaster discontinued that system a few years back.

I ran both on my Formula, still have the systems stashed away.  I eventually switched my Formula to the same system I have on the Z I posted above.  I wanted the "X" cross over instead of the "H" was one reason for the change, and I wanted a stainless system was the other reason.  Plus the Pypes transverse muffler is touted as a straight through design and worth a little HP over the baffle/deflector style.  I was looking for a little edge in the Pure Stock racing category.

  Here is my Formula, setup to run Pure Stock with it's original 400 RAIII, running stock RA manifolds and the same Pypes 2 1/2" system.

https://youtu.be/er1z7PpqsnY     

Not only did the car pick up about 2 tenths with this system over the others, but it's also a very mellow sound, no drone in the car, very quiet to cruise down the road in.

Here's a ride along to get an idea how quiet it is inside the car.  Matter of fact, it's so quiet inside, I could hardly hear my car at all with the "open header" car next to me.  So much so that I quit looking at the tach for a few seconds and didn't even realize I had run 2nd gear out to 5700....Oooops.  It runs best shifting around 5200.

https://youtu.be/bpFwscg7uoY   

bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2018, 10:07:06 PM »
Change the ground cable to black.

Exhaust manifolds are wrong - those manifolds are for an automatic with Therm AC heat stove. You'll need to add a smog system to be totally correct.

Add spark plug shields -

Still, a good looking engine bay and car. I like it -

Regards,
Steve

Rookie question: What are the differences between automatic exhaust manifolds and manual exhaust manifolds?

69Z28-RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2018, 10:09:30 PM »
Manual transmission cars included the A.I.R. system... so the manifolds are drilled for the AIR tube connections.   For automatic transmission cars, the air cleaner is different..   and I've got to go (wife is calling me) so someone else can fill in the rest.. :)
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bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2018, 10:59:12 PM »
Ah, thanks. I found some pics on-line. So ALL 1969 V8 manual shift had the AIR system from the factory?

z28z11

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2018, 03:20:45 AM »
Yep. My L48 Pace Car is an auto, no A.I.R. All three of my manuals (68 Z, 69 X77, 69 L78) have them. Also, one of the first parts to be taken off the car when new, for a lot of owners.

You can buy reproductions, they're fairly close, OE's will cost you some bucks. Here again, depends on what you want to do to the car - restore, or mild modify. Headers will wake up the performance of the small block, and your neighbors will love the improvement to your exhaust note.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

KurtS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 05:10:20 AM »
Kurt S
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bheston

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2018, 09:58:14 AM »
Thanks for the info! I bought a set of correct cast number manual manifolds and feel compelled to pull and replace the auto manifolds this spring.  My plan would be to plug the AIR ports and not attempt to restore the emissions.  Iím not trying to make this 100% original, but I appreciate and prefer the look of how The General intended.  There will always be a few things that I canít change or prefer not to change. Itís unclear to me if the true subject matter experts will see this as wearing a non-earned war metal or if folks appreciate the intent.  I suppose there will always be both opinions.

z28z11

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2018, 02:01:18 PM »
Not a bad idea. A lot of people that re-install the smog systems will make them non-operational by plugging the manifold tubes, and gutting the pump (removing the vanes). Creepy things caused problems for a lot of owners (and restorers); hurt performance, but the visual requirement for correctness is there when doing a detailed restoration. Dated parts with part numbers, too, for all of us number fanatics.

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

BULLITT65

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2018, 02:05:23 PM »
The things we are pointing out, most observers at a car show will not notice. Most will appreciate that it looks stock.

Likely only a CRG guy would be able to point out, what is incorrect. In the end you are the only one that has to be happy with the end product. :)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

HawkX66

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2018, 05:45:06 PM »
Video clips aren't working for me for some reason.
Same for everyone else? I just made them public, so maybe that will help. I don't have to do that with regular pics.
Dave
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Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
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bcmiller

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2018, 06:53:04 PM »
Video clips aren't working for me for some reason.

I ran both the American Thunder and the Force II FLowmaster transverse systems.   The American Thunder was hella loud with a ton of interior drone, after 6 months of daily driving I removed it. Switched to the Force II.   The Force II was more mellow, but oddly enough Flowmaster discontinued that system a few years back.

I ran both on my Formula, still have the systems stashed away.  I eventually switched my Formula to the same system I have on the Z I posted above.  I wanted the "X" cross over instead of the "H" was one reason for the change, and I wanted a stainless system was the other reason.  Plus the Pypes transverse muffler is touted as a straight through design and worth a little HP over the baffle/deflector style.  I was looking for a little edge in the Pure Stock racing category.

  Here is my Formula, setup to run Pure Stock with it's original 400 RAIII, running stock RA manifolds and the same Pypes 2 1/2" system.

https://youtu.be/er1z7PpqsnY     

Not only did the car pick up about 2 tenths with this system over the others, but it's also a very mellow sound, no drone in the car, very quiet to cruise down the road in.

Here's a ride along to get an idea how quiet it is inside the car.  Matter of fact, it's so quiet inside, I could hardly hear my car at all with the "open header" car next to me.  So much so that I quit looking at the tach for a few seconds and didn't even realize I had run 2nd gear out to 5700....Oooops.  It runs best shifting around 5200.

https://youtu.be/bpFwscg7uoY   

5200? I shifted my old TransAm 400 4 speed at 6100. :)

Even my current ďold school 468Ē with 4 inch stroke occasionally gets above 6k.  :)

Donít they at least let you run better valve springs???

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

X33RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2018, 06:57:00 PM »
Video clips aren't working for me for some reason.
Same for everyone else? I just made them public, so maybe that will help. I don't have to do that with regular pics.

Okay working for me now, thanks.

Sounds pretty good, fairly mellow.

X33RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2018, 07:07:08 PM »
Video clips aren't working for me for some reason.

I ran both the American Thunder and the Force II FLowmaster transverse systems.   The American Thunder was hella loud with a ton of interior drone, after 6 months of daily driving I removed it. Switched to the Force II.   The Force II was more mellow, but oddly enough Flowmaster discontinued that system a few years back.

I ran both on my Formula, still have the systems stashed away.  I eventually switched my Formula to the same system I have on the Z I posted above.  I wanted the "X" cross over instead of the "H" was one reason for the change, and I wanted a stainless system was the other reason.  Plus the Pypes transverse muffler is touted as a straight through design and worth a little HP over the baffle/deflector style.  I was looking for a little edge in the Pure Stock racing category.

  Here is my Formula, setup to run Pure Stock with it's original 400 RAIII, running stock RA manifolds and the same Pypes 2 1/2" system.

https://youtu.be/er1z7PpqsnY     

Not only did the car pick up about 2 tenths with this system over the others, but it's also a very mellow sound, no drone in the car, very quiet to cruise down the road in.

Here's a ride along to get an idea how quiet it is inside the car.  Matter of fact, it's so quiet inside, I could hardly hear my car at all with the "open header" car next to me.  So much so that I quit looking at the tach for a few seconds and didn't even realize I had run 2nd gear out to 5700....Oooops.  It runs best shifting around 5200.

https://youtu.be/bpFwscg7uoY   

5200? I shifted my old TransAm 400 4 speed at 6100. :)

Even my current “old school 468” with 4 inch stroke occasionally gets above 6k.  :)

Don’t they at least let you run better valve springs???



They limit valve spring seat pressure to 130 lbs.    Which is plenty on a stock flat tappet to spin it up.  5700 doesn't hurt the engine and it runs fine up there, the car just doesn't go any quicker.   One big reason is because I have the factory cam advanced (installed on a 106 ICL) for a little more bottom end.  I did that because I only run a 3.31 gear in the car.  And that gear is in there because it's also a driver for us.  Cam is just the stock RAIII 212/225 @ .050 and .407 lift.

If I had my way the car would run best with a 3.73-ish gear, and then I'd probably move the cam out to a 109 ICL to shift the power up a bit and adjust shift points accordingly.  So there is more ET in it, I'm just not exploiting it.     However the quickest of the RAIII 400's in the class all pretty much run 3.73-3.90 gear and are right at high 12's and 107-108 mph on a good day.  Mine corrects to a 12.78 at 106 so I'm just about on par, without the rear gear.  So pretty happy with it actually.

X33RS

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2018, 08:40:31 PM »
A good example of that  is our Z I posted above.  I built that engine with the same rules in mind in hopes of participating with that car.  Even with the valve spring limit, it still made peak power at 6700 rpm, I shifted in that video at 7,000.  I installed that cam only 2 degrees advance, wanted to make sure it made power up stares where these engines shine anyway, plus the stock camshaft is very healthy for a little 302 with 254 @ .050.   SBC has lighter valve train components than a Pontiac so that helps too.  For this car to run it's best it needs a bunch of gear.  Complete opposite end of the spectrum than the Pontiac.

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Re: Exhaust Advice Needed
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2021, 01:35:50 AM »
Nice car!!