Author Topic: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?  (Read 1393 times)

BULLITT65

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A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« on: January 12, 2018, 04:49:55 AM »
How much do we love our hobby? Will all first gens eventually turn into a SS or Z/28?

So with the appearance of another fake 69Z, I got to thinking:20,302 is a lot of 69 Z/28's. If it were less like 68 it would be nice to have a (smaller) registry. If each Z got inspected and then there was a national registry of known real cars, a potential buyer could then contact them, and verify a real car. I think you could still do it with the 69 Z and SS and pace cars, you would have just need to develop a database to keep track of the cars by Vin number, and trim tag. You could put notes in like Jerry M verified drive train, or Steve S inspected car at MCACN and verified original stamped components.
If this was done and could be viewed online. Would this be an easier way to curb guys passing off fakes? or maybe it would cause guys to copy known cars, so maybe pay for a document, like a rough draft MARTI report, on what is known about a car?

Seems like many of us who like to police ebay and the fake cars out there could come up with a database that could be over seen by a team of guys, and passed down to younger generations as time goes on. These cars are going to outlive us, hell some of them are coming back from the dead with re-bodies (wouldn't it be nice if we could get a re-body?  :))
I think the CRG is a great resource for many owners, but I think developing a data base for all to utilize would be a nice Legacy for us to leave behind for the Camaro owners that follow us.

I would appreciate some input from the many CRG members and administrators on this one. I may even get a poll going if enough good ideas or questions are raised .

(BTW -I think Kurt, Ed and others have done a good job of posting info on cars that are parading around as something special now, I just would like to expand this)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:29:25 AM by BULLITT65 »
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BULLITT65

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Re: So with the appearance of another fake 69Z, I got to thinking
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 04:53:54 AM »
Thinking about this more, all the fake cars (unverified)  that would be inspected would alternatively develop their own database. A car could have attached files stating possible re-stamp block, or new trim tag.

On the verified cars that have NOM motors you could delve further and report the dated components/drivetrain components and partial Vin numbers, and this could serve as a back door "Orphan database" that may further aid those trying to locate original components.

Plain jane cars that have been verified, if added to the database, then could not be cloned in the future. Seems like it could be a great thing for the 1st gen Camaro.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BULLITT65

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Re: So with the appearance of another fake 69Z, I got to thinking
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 05:05:35 AM »
Still brainstorming on my own here, but I think if you were looking at a car to purchase and it was in this database, wouldn't it be worth the $20-$30 to get info on all the past that is known about a car, with possible file attachments of block stamps, maybe pics from back in the day. It would be great where possible to have a list on each car of former owners, and their contact information, or families contact info.
I can imagine how exciting it would be for my kids generation when they get into their 40's (30 years from now) to look up info and find a guy who owned the 67 camaro they just purchased back in 2018 ! And the many stories guys could tell about their good times in the car, and what it looked like back then.

While verifying the most copied (clone)first gen models  initially, as time goes on it would be nice to expand the data base to all first gen Camaros. This way each car could potentially have a file.

Time will catch up with all of us. Many of us take better care of our Camaros than we do our own bodies and health. There will be more passionate Camaro owners coming along. My motto: Lets keep the torch burning bright on these special cars for many years to come  :D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:30:32 AM by BULLITT65 »
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BULLITT65

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Re: So with the appearance of another fake 69Z, I got to thinking
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 05:27:27 AM »
My mind is still cranking away here:

As a Camaro owner how many of you would start off voluntarily submitting pics of your car, your contact info, and possibly providing date stamp, vin data, and trim tag data, to contribute to a SECURE collective first gen data base?

I could see some owners being hesitant, but if scammers could not just pull up your info willy nilly on the internet, and it was a paid secure service would that put some of the worry to bed?

It may not be enough incentive for guys to think of the future owners of their cars, and many of us live with our camaro info close to the vest. I get it. I am just trying to see from the perspective of someone 30, 40, 50 years from now, and them thinking its to bad those old farts didn't get with technology and compile all their info, for us to follow...

I do the brakes, pull transmissions, reupholster seats, with my kids observing or taking different levels of interest. I am trying to pass along my knowledge. I have had them all block sanding my 55 chevy, in the driveway. I hope Steve and Jerry have bright pupils to pass their knowledge onto, because eBay and and these money making machine auction houses are going to be around for a long time. Seems somebody has to step it up and start pooling all this info together into 1 place.
Shelby has a registry, Yenko has its own registry. Just seems like we need to open a discussion to take our hobby, to the next level. Would you guys agree on that?

 
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BULLITT65

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Re: So with the appearance of another fake 69Z, I got to thinking
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 06:21:23 AM »
and then some...
So while I am not a Pontiac GTO buff ( I do like them though), I wonder how many fakers are detoured by the PHS?
I think part of clamping down on these guys making more rare cars out of plain jane cars, would be to spread the word and promote this service. The guys that clone cars, would end up having harder time. The dealers who pass these cars along (some innocently, some not) could check a CAR FOX type of service on a first gen camaro, and know if it had a clean bill of health, or if they were getting damaged goods. I bet if the news spread and could be verified in a data base, many dealers wouldn't even bother with selling a car that couldn't be verified, and would want to be advertise that their car is verified, or post a copy of the report, like CAR FOX, to show they are upfront with the info of the car. In a sense this may fill the void that many have voiced about jerry's reports possibly?
(I am thinking a report that would be in conjunction with a jerry inspection, or a MCACN inspection)
Ex 1968 SS BB NOM motor car
Jerry documents this in his report. So while jerry's report is good at the time it is done, what happens in 10 years when the guy wants to sell and thinks - I will get a restamp motor, provide the certificate from Jerry and ditch the rest of the report. Lets say he sells it to a friend, and then that guy sells it after a few years and has no idea of the restamp, and presents it as numbers matching?
Well not so fast if this cars info was in the network, it would show how long ago Jerry did the report. It could give an additional option to purchase Jerry's  original notes on the car. to verify what he saw 10 years ago. There are many scenarios where it seems this type of service would be useful. (I think)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

maroman

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 07:17:50 AM »
Sounds VERY ambitious. I usually do my thinking like this while riding the lawn mower. It would certainly help someone that WANTS to be honest about their car. But are there that many out there. Most have no idea what or why we care. I have even been told you can make any car a Z or big block no one can tell. I would applaud the effort and do whatever I could to help but with 20,000 real cars I think it a monumental task.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 09:00:33 AM »
your comment about the lawn mower made me laugh.  ;D Well the thought struck me, when Steve replied on the other thread that there are still 40,000 69 Z's still parading around out there. Many of us post about these cars, but chances are slim a potential buyer will see our comments. (sometimes it occurs). I just thought you know Kurt has many (MANY) files and pics of cars and stamps, but unless one of us posts about it, and Kurt takes time out to look it up in his data base, there are many that stay under our radar. Kurt is just one guy, and I assume has a life outside of The CRG.

Yes it is a monumental task, but if it was taken on, I think one of the biggest hurdles would be guys just submitting info on their own cars. Next would be the co-operation of Jerry, Steve,  Kurt or the CRG to contribute all the cars they have data on. This may be the larger sticking point. 1 you have money involved since I assume these inspections are jerry's bread and butter, and I could understandably see how he would want to safe guard his end of it, legally and protecting the value of the service he provides. I would assume Steve keeps good records as well. Kurt tends to also keep much of the information close to the vest, in an attempt to prevent any further deception, I would guess.

It may be pie in the sky, I am just one guy, but the mission seems worthy, and I know many of wish we could do something to turn the tide.

I really liked the story of Cooks first Camaro that got t-boned and he put back together. I just imagined that car trading hands a few times, and being marketed as a rare original BB car. Cook never intended that, but once you sell a car who knows what guys will do to squeeze more money out of them.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

169INDY

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 03:58:48 AM »
www.saac.com/registries.html
This effort needed to start decades ago, the gennie is out of the bottle (clones) and can never be contained.
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

69Z28-RS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 04:45:41 AM »
www.saac.com/registries.html
This effort needed to start decades ago, the gennie is out of the bottle (clones) and can never be contained.


That's a good example (Shelby American club)...  A friend who is a renowned Cobra/Shelby expert and nut recently wrote me this when I sent him the link to the BBC video on Shelby:

"Thanks, its a pity that most of the "Cobras" shown in modern videos and pictures in this segment are recreations or replicas.

- 1962-1969 = 998 chassis of all variants, Cobra, 427 Cobra, and 289 Sports
- estimated original VINs now used in mostly or complete recreations since the 1980s = 100
- estimated originals VINs now used on chassis reconstructed from parts or at least some original
   something 200
- estimated number of chassis of any source claiming an original chassis number something like  1030
- estimated number of replicars in any variant combine from 350 makers is something like 60,000
   and growing every month"
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 05:42:46 AM »
www.saac.com/registries.html
This effort needed to start decades ago, the gennie is out of the bottle (clones) and can never be contained.

I don't disagree that the effort needed to start decades ago, BUT I think our corner of the hobby could still benefit from putting forth the effort. Wouldn't it be great if one day a guy who had one of these fakes, decided to turn it back to a plain jane car?
I think as Gary pointed out, even the guys who had the idea early on to put together a registry, did not curb all of the copy cats out there. BUT at least there is a go to source to verify a car.

I appreciate your input Jim, Doug (and Gary). Even though this topic only has 4 members, it has been viewed by many.
Maybe a good poll question would be: Would you volunteer your information on your car to build such a data base?
I am open to suggestions though. :)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

x66 714

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 11:56:04 AM »
Would you volunteer your information on your car to build such a data base?
I am open to suggestions though. :)

I would & I have...Joe
See America's First, Chevrolet

1968 Z/28 Corvette Bronze. Black Hounds Tooth. 02E Los Angeles born 3/13/1968 pnt OO. Purchased March 1976
1969 SS396 Yellow/Yellow 08E Norwood born 8/28/1969 pnt 76E. Purchased April 1981

HOT3O2

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 01:54:26 PM »
www.saac.com/registries.html
This effort needed to start decades ago, the gennie is out of the bottle (clones) and can never be contained.

Like the old saying goes: The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today.
Rick
69 RS/Z28

z28z11

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 05:37:14 PM »
www.saac.com/registries.html
This effort needed to start decades ago, the gennie is out of the bottle (clones) and can never be contained.


I agree, but I also like to think of the CRG as a cork for that bottle to an extent. Over the last several years I've been happy to witness the exposure of a lot of outright fakes, clones and questionable cars posted on the Forum, and I have learned a ton about Camaros that I never dreamed of even after owning a documented car since 1973, and being an Chevy owner and enthusiast long before then. I do agree that a registry would help the future generations; the drawback would be there is always a holdout, or a barn car, or a recluse that would not hear of it or want to register a car, forever leaving that opening or loophole in the database.

Still, the existence of a database would have helped an friend of mine - the guy bought a "Z" online, took this guy's word for originality, and reportedly paid an extreme amount of money for it. He brought it to a local show a couple of years ago, and invited Cook and myself to take a look at it. After about a minute's worth of cursory inspection, I had the unhappy task of telling him it was definitely not what he thought it was, even though it was a pretty car. I don't think he has spoken of it to me since. Sad part about it, it wasn't even close to being correct, visually flagging it's history to anyone that cared to look. A few pics and a question to the Forum in advance of the purchase might have saved the deal, too.

Just my two cents -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

uscrichter

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 07:34:47 PM »
It appears to me from some of the latest posts that CRG has already saved a lot of potential buyers from some disappointing purchases with all of the knowledge in this group and a great resource for anyone considering a Gen one purchase... Keep up the great work!

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2018, 07:45:30 PM »
Good point Steve. I think half of it is having the service/registry, but the word has to get out there, so guys like your friend could have had a go to source. To bad you didn't live closer or get the opportunity to inspect the car with him prior to purchase, he is one of many I am afraid.
I think the books that the Shelby registry puts out, may work for them and a smaller number of cars. But still thats 3 volumes at 1200 pages a book?

While Cyber security is definitely in the headlines these days, with even credit bureaus getting hacked, I think the way to go is having a electronic data base. I think paying a fee to get all the known history on a Vin number, (maybe even how many owners, when it was restored/or painted) would give people a good heads up prior to purchase hopefully. I think the best people to provide the initial info is the current owners. We have all taken a big interest in trying to learn the history of our cars, past owners and such.

Now last year I got the idea to start collecting data on Late August of 69 Camaros. I have a late 08C car and there were some different transitions during the month. So I put together a spread sheet, for any kind of numbers I could find on my red car. I then made contact with others, and got as much info as i could on there cars. Right now I have 17 late August cars, which is not many when you consider how many were produced, but guys were willing to share the info, which was great, and has produced some interesting info.
I have just started collecting info on early 69 Camaros, since I purchased my early 10B L.A. car. 
So for instance if Gary took on October/ November of late 69, and we started having 1 guy responsible for each time frame, it might make it do-able.
I know some guys have already been collecting data on specific models, I know Cook has a 68 BB spread sheet going.
I also think Len has info pertaining to July Camaros of 69.
So there is some gathering of info that has already taken place, spreading the work out, makes it less monumental.
I think it would just be a matter of putting all the info together, where we could access it when needed.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28-RS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2018, 08:08:00 PM »
If you want to get the CRG owners/admins on your side, you need to figure out a nice clean way to make it 'complementary' to CRG and it's data, and not an alternative..  I doubt that anyone 'opposes' what you would like to do, but then a lot of us have 'seen a lot' in our years, and while maybe we aren't skeptical, about some things we are 'skeptics' until we see more information and plans.  Talk to Kurt and other CRG members and find out what they think; if they think such a database would/could be complementary to what CRG is already doing.   If you work at it... you'll find a way... :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2018, 08:17:50 PM »
I agree. I am not sure how much info they would let on that they would be able to provide. But Ideally getting major players that have gobs of information dating back a ways would really make a difference in the percentage of information, and the depth of the info.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2018, 09:41:29 PM »
I have been doing this for almost 20 years. Almost every Camaro registry that I have seen started has then died - JL8, L89, 68Z, etc. It takes a lot of continual work. And if you spread it amongst people, they need to be entering data in the same format - that's not a trivial problem. And the data stream is huge - just capturing the data from ebay is like drinking from a fire hose.

A registry will never address the issue that people buy cars and then ask questions later.
Kurt S
CRG

ZLP955

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 10:23:59 PM »
I've been following this with interest, but have held off replying until now.
A couple of thoughts:

- The intent of such a database is presumably to prevent fraud/misrepresentation for financial gain, but if a car was cloned 30 years ago, the deception has already happened. Some owners of such cars may be willing to provide details that would confirm them as fakes to prevent furthering that deception, but many wouldn't (or would not accept it in the face of facts).
- A database for the benefit of the hobby and for collectors should surely include all models and all 3 model years, not just what some of us consider the most desirable? Most hobby forums have members who are knowledgable about certain models and years, but to cover everything accurately is hugely problematic.
- As evidenced by this and other sites, even fully-documented cars aren't bullet-proof. GM of Canada docs for a valid VIN can be cloned onto another car (rebody), or faked altogether - not all buyers verify first, notarized statements from original owners should be treated with caution, and the rise in faked P-o-Ps, dealer invoices, MSOs etc is huge.
- Plenty of these cars reside in foreign countries (like my own) and it's impossible to get these inspected in person. What would likely happen is the database would be divided up into tiers - believed genuine, maybe (with some questionable items), believed non-genuine. This 'status' if made available to the general masses would impact on a car's perceived value and that will be an issue for some (many?) owners. Legal liability issues?
- The only way I could see such a database being as accurate as possible would be if the same expert physically inspected each car - a mammoth undertaking, and who would foot the bill or have the time/resources?
- With no disrespect intended, I have seen cars appraised and certified as such-and-such a desirable RPO on the basis of number of fuel lines, heater box style, firewall penetrations etc when there is zero documentation or any drivetrain component remaining - basically a rolling shell. I don't doubt the credibility and knowledge of those doing the certification, but my point is that without an inspection, what is there to go on from photos and descriptions to populate a database that is seen as credible?
Tim - 04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 11:22:37 PM »
I agree that all models should be accommodated, knowing that less desirable models will more than likely be less populated with less data.

30 to 40+ yrs ago, the 'fake Z28s'  99% consisted of adding badges to a Camaro; there may have been some 'better' fakes back then, but I never came across one.  I'm sure today the 'fakes are much better prepared (partly due to our gathering the necessary data for them).

All such a data base could do would be accumulate/gather the data as provided by the owners with notations as to what is *missing* or questionable.  Having a single person/organization inspect all the cars is impossible, although certainly having data from a viable inspection would be good data to have for the cars that had it.

Maybe a more feasible suggestion for Austin and others who desire to promote such a database would be to coordinate with CRG and volunteer to collect and provide the data collected into the CRG database..
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 11:54:59 PM »
Great idea Gary. People are always encouraged to forward data to the CRG core or CRG Associate members.

Austin, What you are asking for is truly Pie in the Sky. Unless you have unlimited time and money, it will never happen. Experts have different levels of knowledge. Who would constantly update it? The problems are MANY as Kurt mentioned.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:15:08 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2018, 05:01:30 AM »
Tim those are good suggestions, about a cars history and if has had a certified inspection, or if it was "uncertified" in the history of the car would also be good to know.
 I guess my question with the CRG is if a potential buyer asks about a car that has been inspected by Jerry, and IFKurt happens to see the post, is the CRG (Kurt) privy to Jerry's data base?

I have seen cars mentioned in the past, where Kurt says he doesn't have any info on the car. Does that mean it hasn't been seen by Jerry either?

Also for the MCACN first gen Camaros that get inspected, has this data been combined with CRG data, or are these also separate?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 01:41:53 AM »
All three are separate.
Kurt S
CRG

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 04:03:48 AM »
Would it be a good idea to have a collective data base of all three? Kurt if you had the final say, how would you envision the best way to compile all the data?
Would you want it all under the CRG roof? Or is even that to monumental? (I am not sure how many cars Jerry has inspected/documented)
Would Jerry's data be to large, to take on merging it with Your CRG data (not sure if all of Jerry's data is on a computer)

(Be nice to hear from Steve S. And his take on this as well)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 06:42:53 AM »
> And if you spread it amongst people, they need to be entering data in the same format - that's not a trivial problem.
None of the data is even close to the same format, if it's even digitized.
Order of magnitudes difference. The CRG database is 20,000+ cars, some with lots of info, some with basic info. Steve's and Jerry's data is way fewer cars, more details.

From the start, CRG has committed that any data submitted will remain confidential.  See http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0
Kurt S
CRG

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 07:34:08 AM »
So then how would you would imagine a ideal registry at this point with your knowledge of the CRG data base, and a smaller sample of cars from Jerry and Steve?
We can all continue to funnel potential buyers through the CRG, but you are just one guy. Just like Jerry is one guy.
If you have something personal come up, and say you are out attending to it for 2 weeks, That data on 20,000 cars is pretty much locked up, until you get back then right?
I guess I am somewhat wondering where you see this going as time marches on?  Do you envision what you do evolving into more or a grander scale?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

maroman

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 02:27:28 PM »
I don't have a nickle in this but have been wondering something. I don't know Jerry, never met him but I think he does his evaluations as a business. He looks at cars for the current owner's benefit. Why would he volunteer to give up his data base for all to see? Wouldn't that be a conflict?
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2018, 04:43:18 PM »
I agree Doug, thats why I thought for example: if a potential buyer submitted a vin to say Kurt, and he had a list of Vin numbers that Jerry has inspected, he could then let the potential buyer know it is on file with Jerry, and possibly pay for a copy of that old report? 
Now maybe Jerry is unable to release the report, or maybe he destroys them after a number of years?
But, if he can get permission, or if the person who paid for the report isn't in the picture, maybe he could come up with a 2nd tier fee schedule for old reports?
So if he charges $800 for a new report, maybe he charges $200 for a copy of an old report? (maybe prorated based on age)

This is all speculation, but there would be a way for him to protect his business financially.

I am just not sure about who owns the info in those reports and their rights to keep it private.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28-RS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 04:15:35 AM »
The data produced by the report Jerry produces is *owned* by the person who contracted him to do it (normally the owner of the car), UNLESS Jerry has some clause in his 'contract' with them that states that 'Jerry now owns the contents of the report on the owners car'.   ie.  If you contract with someone to do a service for you, providing acess to/information from something you own, ownership of that information does NOT pass to the service provider.   Without requesting/receiving right to pass along that data from the owner, Jerry could not provide you all his data even if he wanted to do that.

Austin:  IMO... You're getting TOO far reaching with your aspirations.   Any information provided to you should come from the owner(s) of the vehicles, and once that was provided, you or some expert could 'assess' that information.   Back up a bit, go back to your original goal statement..  to develop a *limited* data base to serve as a 'First Gen' Camaro Registry.  it's always going to be limited to data on the cars submitted to you by their owners.   It's going to be limited due to a number of reasons:  1) How many HUNDREDS of thousands of first gen Camaros were built??  2)  It's been more than 50 yrs since they were produced and many are GONE, or trashed..  3) Many owners just consider them 'old cars' and couldn't care about your 'registry'.   We who are on CRG (and maybe Team Camaro) are the MOST interested re Camaros.. and compare our numbers to those total numbers of cars to get what I'm trying to say.   1967 Z28s are probably the only model/yr that had a small enough quantity to *maybe* generate a decent registry, and even that is nearly impossible to ever get a full listing.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 05:45:55 AM »
Good point. So what your saying is all of Jerry's inspections if not kept by the seller, once they disappear are gone forever.

Well I have a leg up on the 08 (late 69 ) Camaros, It would be nice to get a few other guys to head up other months of the year, to keep this going. 
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28-RS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 04:21:44 PM »
Figure out what you want to include in the database/archive/registry...  Which could include nothing but the VIN and the owners name (and major options/color/trim/etc...possibly)?  Or it might be more, but as you try to include MORE, your problems increase and the owner's hesitancy to provide the data increase as well.

I have a 42 MByte file I've been developing for the past 10 yrs.  Initially it only included the major items:  VIN, info from the cowl plate, data from the engine, trans, etc.. and some historical information as to when I purchased it, who from, and the state of the car when I purchased it.  After I found/registered on CRG, each time a new 'topic' came up, I'd check my car and make notes and/or photos of that part on my car.   As a result of my desire to keep the car original, and thru my involvement with those on CRG, I've now included photos and notes on essentially everything we've discussed (from my car).  I keep the photos included in the *printable* file small enough to fit in a 1/4 page but make sure the 'info' is obvious (on my computer, I keep the large highest resolution files in case I need to refer to them).  When I rebuilt my brakes, I took photos of the calipers, dates, etc.. wheel cylinders, the original rear brake shoes/hardware (which I retained).  When I replaced the soft parts (rubber brake lines) I retained and photographed the originals (due to Steve Shauger's suggestion to do so).   I would not pass along ALL of the information I've gathered to such a registry; it would only be passed to the 'next owner' if I'm alive when that happens.. :)

BUT.. I would pass along relevant information (dates, codes,etc) to such a registry if we arrive at a reasonable level of information that the folks here on CRG are agreed to.  In fact, over the last 10 yrs, I have included info and photos of the parts from my car in CRG threads when it was useful to answer a question or help another CRG member.

I don't know if this helps you, or not, but FWIW, this is what I've done on a personal level.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 05:13:33 PM »
Good point. So what your saying is all of Jerry's inspections if not kept by the seller, once they disappear are gone forever.

Not a true statement.


My $0.01.

If you wanna start your own database go for it.  BUT I honestly don't see a point unless it is a personal goal.  If you are worried about future potential owners getting screwed it has to be up to them to search out the info on the car and to seek out experts in the hobby.  The world has become so digital now that info is out there one way or another.  CRG forum as a whole does a very good job of "policing" fake or suspect cars.  If you are concerned about the future of CRG I can almost guarantee if I know Kurt and the other guys that are core members there are steps in place to move this group forward in the future.  Who is it?  IDK and honestly not my concern.  I'll continue to do my thing and do my own research with the help of every resource I have available.  I help when I can or feel it is necessary.  Other times I try to input some humor.  Some might but I'm sure most don't but this is a HOBBY.  If you allow it; it will become a job and will no longer be enjoyable.  Think you had the right idea in a previous post about being out in the driveway sanding on the tri-five with the kids.  That is where it really counts.   

69Z28-RS

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 05:20:20 PM »
Darryl wrote:  (in part)...
"...  this is a HOBBY.  If you allow it; it will become a job and will no longer be enjoyable.  Think you had the right idea in a previous post about being out in the driveway sanding on the tri-five with the kids.  That is where it really counts. "

I agree 100% ...    :)     
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 05:54:40 PM »
Darrell can you expand on what you know about Jerry's reports? What point would there be in archiving the reports, if none of the contents could be divulged?

BTW- we have our own CRG and MRG (Mustang research group), in our household, my kids know more about first Gen Camaros and Mustangs than most of the guys I run into who "used to own one". While in the garage this past weekend, my son wanted a breakdown of X77 vs. X33 vs. RS (concerning a 69Z) , so naturally I busted out a huge piece of cardboard and propped it up and busted out a piece of chalk, and Educated him. He followed that up with a Q & A session. It was priceless, I am not sure who enjoyed it more. It is fun to not even have to get on a forum, or seek out someone to talk cars with, when he is around. Sometimes I just have to wait until he is done playing nerf guns, or finishing his homework to do so...  ;D
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

ko-lek-tor

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 06:02:31 PM »
GW writes , ...If you contract with someone to do a service for you, providing acess to/information from something you own, ownership of that information does NOT pass to the service provider.   Without requesting/receiving the right to do so.... Unless your initials are HRC.
James to strangers, Bentley to friends
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 06:05:34 PM »
GW writes , ...If you contract with someone to do a service for you, providing acess to/information from something you own, ownership of that information does NOT pass to the service provider.   Without requesting/receiving the right to do so.... Inless your initials are HRC.
;D
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 11:50:14 PM »
What Jerry or Steve do with the information they gather is their business - and no other person really needs to know details of how its handled.

Information gathered by CRG is for research purposes and as Kurt said earlier, its confidential in most cases. Or at least at a minimum the personal details are confidential. 

What you are wanting to do would be nice, but the probability of it happening is extremely low. About as high of a chance as there being world peace.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

BULLITT65

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Re: A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 12:25:30 AM »
Well thanks, but my question was directed towards Darrel.  What Steve and Jerry do is thier Business, I am just interested in the info. If it could benefit the hobby than why not inquire about it? ???
I wouldn't discourage anyone for gathering info, whether for themselves or to benefit others seeking good info towards making a smart purchase.
It is a hobby, and yes whether it is CRG, TC, or a experienced inspector, a buyer has to seek out some info to help themselves out. If any info we gather helps out others than great.👍
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 02:15:03 AM by BULLITT65 »
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV