Author Topic: Cowl Tags from the B-J  (Read 9866 times)

m22mike

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Cowl Tags from the B-J
« on: February 01, 2007, 10:31:40 PM »
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Jerry@CHP

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 11:22:50 PM »
I know a good pit bull lawyer, Bruce Shaw.  Specialzes in this car fraud.  Unbelieveable!

Jerry

MMMM_ERT

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 11:37:34 PM »
I'm certainly no expert...but how can you tell they are fake tags (other than the newer rivets)....if someone went to all the trouble to create a fake tag...why wouldn't they reproduce the correct rivet?

If this is the case that they are fake and not disclosed as fakes, there should be hell to pay.
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m22mike

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 01:11:30 AM »
I'm certainly no expert...but how can you tell they are fake tags (other than the newer rivets)....if someone went to all the trouble to create a fake tag...why wouldn't they reproduce the correct rivet?

If this is the case that they are fake and not disclosed as fakes, there should be hell to pay.

It is accepted practice on this board and others not to openly talk about the specifics of repop tags.
Email me and I will talk with you there if your interested.
I am no expert on the law part of this, but I do not think messing with cowl tags carries them same weight as messing with Vin #'s.
Having said that most real car people do not like the repop tags at all. That's why we as a group keep reporting and posting them. Same goes for the real tags for sale on places like E Pay.
                                                      Mike
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rsatz28

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 01:13:49 AM »
I'm certainly no expert...but how can you tell they are fake tags (other than the newer rivets)....if someone went to all the trouble to create a fake tag...why wouldn't they reproduce the correct rivet?

If this is the case that they are fake and not disclosed as fakes, there should be hell to pay.

It is accepted practice on this board and others not to openly talk about the specifics of repop tags.
Email me and I will talk with you there if your interested.
I am no expert on the law part of this, but I do not think messing with cowl tags carries them same weight as messing with Vin #'s.
Having said that most real car people do not like the repop tags at all. That's why we as a group keep reporting and posting them. Same goes for the real tags for sale on places like E Pay.
                                                      Mike
                                                                                 Mike

But it may be fraud selling the car as a Z if if never was a real z

Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 01:15:49 AM »
The fake tags are getting very common at the auctions.
I have asked these sellers about them being on their cars in some cases. -
The response is one of 2 things they either lie right to your face, or claim ignorance.

Ususally they lie, and walk away mad at me for knowing.

MMMM_ERT

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 01:21:35 AM »


It is accepted practice on this board and others not to openly talk about the specifics of repop tags.
Email me and I will talk with you there if your interested.


Actually, that makes sense now that I think about it.  I was just curious how best to spot one...I'll send you an email.
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GaryL

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 04:10:38 AM »
Too bad BJ needs to sell fake cars. They are just perpetuating the fraud. Ignorance of the "law" is no excuse.
Gary

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RamAirDave

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 05:48:28 AM »
We all know that "fake" cars/tags are all over the place, no reason to think that BJ or the other major auctions would be immune.
"Build them how the designers and engineers envisioned them to be"

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JoeC

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 11:50:50 AM »
Here is an interesting quote from the BJ site

“Bring the worldwide resources of Barrett-Jackson Auction Company to your service with the widest selection of pre-screened automobiles in top quality condition, and at market-relative prices. Barrett-Jackson is also the only auction company to offer an on-site detailed vehicle inspection, available to consignors and buyers.”

With the claim of “ pre-screened automobiles in top quality condition” and “ on-site detailed vehicle inspection” you would think they could weed out the obvious fake paperwork and trim tags.

JohnZ

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 04:09:58 PM »
Here is an interesting quote from the BJ site

“Bring the worldwide resources of Barrett-Jackson Auction Company to your service with the widest selection of pre-screened automobiles in top quality condition, and at market-relative prices. Barrett-Jackson is also the only auction company to offer an on-site detailed vehicle inspection, available to consignors and buyers.”

With the claim of “ pre-screened automobiles in top quality condition” and “ on-site detailed vehicle inspection” you would think they could weed out the obvious fake paperwork and trim tags.


"Pre-screened" doesn't mean "originality-certified"; B-J (and the other houses) make it very clear that they depend on the description and documentation provided by the consignor. There's no way they could have enough "experts" on staff with deep knowledge of every kind of car that goes across the block to "certify" any car as genuine. Bidders are supposed to know what they're bidding on, although it's obvious that many don't - they just "want the car".
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Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 09:59:00 PM »
Quite a few of the novices assume that because a car is selling at Barrett Jackson,
That means it is a quality piece.

It carries a celebrity status to say "purchased at Barrett Jackson" (to some)
However, it doesn't mean anything, except that BJ's thinks they can make money.
They don't really care about the pedigree or reliability of the cars, or sellers descriptions - just that they will sell.

And, That is their business to bring together buyers and sellers - for a commission.

MMMM_ERT

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 10:30:43 PM »
What I don't understand is why GM doesn't go after the "entity" who is making the fake tags?  >:(  Theres a copyrighted name on those fakes....or am I mistaken and they have permission to do this?   

Thanks to Mike for "enlightening" me on how to spot a fake.   :)   I vow to not discuss specifics of these on any board.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 11:18:06 PM by MMMM_ERT »
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Jerry@CHP

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 11:14:51 PM »
Here's another thought.  One dealer was caught selling a car that was bogus a few years ago.  Actually sold it twice at BJ, and the second time the car was sold, BJ had to buy it back.  What I don't understand is this dealer is still allowed to sell cars at the BJ auction.  This year, all of the cars for sale from this dealer had ad signs that looked as if they were written by a lawyer.  When dealers sell cars like this it ruins the auction and the reputation.  If BJ wanted to maintain a good reputation, this dealer would have been banned from selling.  Bottom line it as always, it's all about money and that's it.  Period!


   

jdv69z

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 11:45:51 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but the valve covers on the car in the pic appear incorrect as well. Aren't original 69 Z covers dull cast aluminum, not shiny/chromed like the pic? 4 out of 5 supposed original Z's I see have these shiny (later vintage?) valve covers.

Jimmy V.
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Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 12:55:23 AM »
Here's another thought.  One dealer was caught selling a car that was bogus a few years ago.  Actually sold it twice at BJ, and the second time the car was sold, BJ had to buy it back.  What I don't understand is this dealer is still allowed to sell cars at the BJ auction.  This year, all of the cars for sale from this dealer had ad signs that looked as if they were written by a lawyer.  When dealers sell cars like this it ruins the auction and the reputation.  If BJ wanted to maintain a good reputation, this dealer would have been banned from selling.  Bottom line it as always, it's all about money and that's it.  Period!


I know that dealer - he had 16 cars there this year.
Very good customer of BJ's 
Both the dealer and BJ make a LOT of money with his "recreations"
He is taking a big chance and may have to buy back cars again  -
apparently he is willing to take that chance.

Got his hand slapped and there must be an "understanding" now. ???
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 12:58:21 AM by Pacecarjeff »

JoeC

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2007, 03:30:40 PM »
I agree it would be unreasonable to expect BJ to do a complete inspection and verify a car’s authenticity but they should at least take some steps toward getting the message to consigners that clones, tributes, recreations, continuations, restifications or signature cars should not be sold as “best in the world” “only one on the planet” “low mile museum piece” “piece of history” “ investment quality” “Numbers matching” real original cars

Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 05:51:10 PM »
Like Jerry said...
That dealer is VERY carefull about how he describes his cars.

What I had seen in the past is: that dealer tells you a whole story.
Example:
The 302 motor in the 1969 z/28 was developed for Trans Am racing,
Only so many were made with the JL8 option, maybe only 5 with the crossram, and a radio.
After 1969 the Z's went to the LT-1, Making the early cars Special........etc, etc,etc...

A wonderful description for sure,
But, he never really say's that this is one of those cars, or for that matter even a Z/28.
Makes big fancy signs, and sets them up next to the car.

Very impressive display, has it down to a science. ::)

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2007, 08:08:28 PM »
I just wish that the average baby boomer buyer would educate themselves before they purchase a car.  Unforunate as it is, many buyers still don't know about the misrepresentation that goes on from dealers.  They always find out after they own the car that they got screwed.

Jerry

Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 03:19:28 AM »
There needs to be more knowledge.
But really there needs to be a crack down on the fraud.

If you go to a reputable jewelry store, you expect to get genuine diamonds.
If you buy a Rolex at a "national level" jewelry auction - that is what you should get.

When you go to Barrett Jackson - the BIGGEST national collector car auction in the world.
And the advertisement for the nationally televised event claiming this:
Quote
   
“Bring the worldwide resources of Barrett-Jackson Auction Company to your service with the widest selection of pre-screened automobiles in top quality condition, and at market-relative prices. Barrett-Jackson is also the only auction company to offer an on-site detailed vehicle inspection, available to consignors and buyers.”

You should get a real Z/28. (At least - I think you should) ???
And if you don't - the Police should be called. Or, maybe the Attorney General of the United States?

No, they can't be personally responsible for every situation.
But when the same dealers are bringing phony cars year after year to sell.
And some of those phony cars end up being "buy backs" by BJ. Then something is wrong.
Then there must be some collusion between these entities.
Not enough to just buy back the cars when you get caught. - they need to put a stop to it.

And like everything else - when some one is accused, and their lawyers just deny it all - should everyone just accept that.
And please remember --This is just my opinion - I could be wrong.

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2007, 01:06:27 AM »
Another question I meant to ask Charlie was, does this JL8 Z28 have the complete original drive train?  Larry C. said domething about the rear axle tube looked like a restamp.  Any info available?

Jerry

Charley

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2007, 05:29:36 AM »
Rear axle was not a restamp.. I don't remember if the trans was but the engine and rear were orig. Trans might have been  orig. but I just don't remember.

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 05:57:08 AM »
this really hurts the hobby. with all the fake stuff out there, fake trim tags, fake broadcast sheets, aged paperwork. block stamping kits, with correct gang style holder. this hurts all the legit cars when you cant tell the real ones from the fakes.
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Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 03:30:22 PM »
If you don't know the history of a car, and it has not been documented in the past by CRG, or one of the other registries
Then I would be VERY concerned, no mater what paperwork it seems to have.

This stuff has gone beyond control.
Phony paperwork is so very close - can't trust anything anymore.
They age the paper, so very soon you will need to learn "carbon dating" techniques to tell the difference.

tom

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2007, 05:08:29 AM »
Or you could stick with Canadian sold cars where documentation is available.

Tom
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1968RSZ28

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2007, 06:54:26 AM »
Or you could keep "bugging" the old guy down the street with his original Bolero Red 1967 RS Z/28 hoping that some day he will say "yes!"   ::)

Paul

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2007, 05:09:48 AM »
I was at B-J this year. I brought a NON numbers matching Hugger Orange X22 code 1969 camaro RS/SS 4 speed.
    I have been painting cars for 30 years. I bought a shop 4 years ago and have been doing about 50% restoration along with collision damage.
   It has been my experience that ALL AUCTIONS bring out the shady.
   I don't know a lot about camaros but I am always looking for someone to learn from. The B-J auction was a great example of this. A gentleman came up to me at my car and complemented the paint and was very gracious to explain how my tech had put the hood seal on up side down. He and I proceeded to install it correctly. We exchanged cards and made an instant freindship. It was my experience to meet a lot of very nice people there and had many enjoyable conversations.
   I would like feedback on anyone here that was there and looked at my car. Bill Owner East Portland Auto Body

m22mike

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2007, 01:00:38 AM »
Bill
I am pretty sure we talked at your car one day out under the tent at B-J. I also was way impressed at the quility of the paint on that car. If you remember I told you that I had restored four 69 Camaros along with a few others and that I had recently retired ,early, so I could play with cars and do a few restorations on the side. Were you the guy that told me you were more of a Mopar guy and had restored some of them too ?
 Anyway you have come to a great place to learn about Camaros.
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daytonakid

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2007, 05:58:14 AM »
Mike, I remember you. I met an awful lot of people there. I'm hoping to go back next year. We restore about 50/50 mopar and chevy. This site will help with some technical issues. My supplier sometimes buys  the cheaper repro parts will be nice to have access to people who can guide me to the right parts not the junk.Just finishing up a 69 Z28 the customer had us convert it to RS and power steering. Any body know who bought my car? Bill

daytonakid

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2007, 06:00:09 AM »
How would a person get CRG to document a car? Bill

Pacecarjeff

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2007, 03:46:35 PM »
No - that is not something GRG does.
But in some cases. CRG may have documented a car in the past...
Say 20 years ago, before it was valuable.

If the car was a Z/28 in 1982 and had a POP, then that is a good sign it is real.

these days if a car turns up, that are different then they were in the past
That is bad.   ::)

KurtS

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Re: Cowl Tags from the B-J
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2007, 07:28:22 AM »
We will not document a car. As Jeff says, that's not what we do.
And the database was started 9 years ago (though many of the data sources are older than that).
Kurt S
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