Author Topic: "DZ" grease pencil mark  (Read 1783 times)

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
"DZ" grease pencil mark
« on: October 12, 2017, 01:56:33 PM »
I've looked at 2 very nice 69 Z/28's recently that had DZ written on the passenger side head.  Both Norwood cars.

Was this a common thing or another case of someone adding something that wasn't there originally?

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 06:30:28 PM »
If I see that on any car, my thought is “over-restored”.  Those are generally under the paint.

I would never do that on any car I own. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:18:44 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 09:38:21 PM »
So was this done at the plant originally?

I've seen original dual stripe marks on the cylinder heads so I know that was done off and on at Norwood.  I'm just curious about the "DZ" I've been seeing lately.

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 10:10:52 PM »
If I see that on any car, my thought is “over-restored”.  Might have been there a short time, but after several heat cycles “gone”.

....
I'll play devils advocate here......when restoring a car, isn't one goal to have it look as it did when it left the factory....marks included, even if they 'wore' off quickly?  ;)

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

BULLITT65

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3369
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 10:51:29 PM »
I thought BillOHIO 's 69 Z had that mark on his cylinder heads . He purchased his car with fairly low milage, and could make it out  - I think
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BillOhio

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
    • photobucket
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 11:19:23 PM »
Mine had the dual stripes on the drivers side.  It had some weird marks on the side of the block that looked like ok
I will see where the stripes pics are
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

BillOhio

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
    • photobucket
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 11:27:12 PM »
The head is when it was still in the car. It was easier to see than what the picture shows. The side of the block, this was after it was hot tanked.
In either the how to Hotrod your small block Chevy or how to rebuild your small block Chevy, there's some pictures of blocks on the assembly line with the engine code written on the side of the block. Mine looked more like ok but I suppose it could have been DZ
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4428
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 03:07:51 AM »
My tendency is to agree with Mr Miller on this point...  i would not do it to my car, and I suggest the ones you seen with this recently were 'recent restorations'..  by restorers who read 'more' into things than they should... :)

as John Z said....   'restoration graffiti'....      UGH!
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Stingr69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 12:50:01 PM »
The sides of the block grease pencil marks are certainly legit and they did last.  There were several other marks that I do not know the meaning of on blocks. I have seen marks on other untouched examples.  That is how the line knew what parts to put in there.

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4428
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 01:52:33 PM »
I think the 'point' is that any grease pencil marks were put on the block *before it was completed and painted*, and generally the marks would be gone before/by the painting step.  Of course, we have seen a few examples where the marks became obvious *thru old thin* paint many years after and those situations are neat because they help us understand how the engine plants did their jobs.

What disgusts me is the some 'restorers' read such things and decide that their *restorations* are more authentic if they put their bright splashes of color and marks all over the car AFTER the parts are restored (makes them lots more obvious doesn't it?).. :)    THAT is 'restoration graffiti'...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 03:58:40 PM »
 Looking at the original posters comments about 'DZ', wasn't it a practice to hand write the motor prefix on the visible side of a head to make it easier for the person who had to retrieve the block from the rack? I'm sure we have all seen the pictures with motors and writing on the blocks and valve covers sitting on the train terminal loading docks. As I understood it, on racks of motors, there could be different prefix codes and unless one climbed onto the rack to look at the pad stamp the grease mark on the head made it easier to distinguish. I understand that marks on a bare block being assembled have had them painted over. I agree that some cars are way overdone with marks. I've seen a Chevelle at a show recently and it looked like someone shot at the engine compartment with a paintball gun.
    When you step back and look at the PBT, linkage paint dabs, the occasional surviving factory post-assembled inspection dabs (have them on my steering joint to shaft bolt), surviving marks on firewalls (I'm not referring to those under the blackout), marks written inside front end panels like extensions and valence, and the white 'X' on the washer fluid tops, there is already a lot of 'graffiti' when it left the factory.

Mike 
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »
In general, those markings would be for engine plant assembly purposes, buried under paint. Sometimes paint was thin or burned off a bit and then may have shown through.

I can’t say it never happened (marks on top of paint) as there are a few pics out there. Mostly seen on MO engines in 68. That might have been due to a different type of marker used or a slightly different engine paint mix or supplier, making it easier to show through. But it wasn’t the norm as far as I know.

Assembly line ID of a DZ should have been pretty easy. Think about it. Small block, aluminum intake, special valve covers.

Do what you want people. I just stated I would never do it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:54:02 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 06:23:22 PM »
The 10D norwood I restored a few years back... 302 on the side of the block upon tear down.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 06:46:41 PM »
Very cool James, first I've seen of that.  Neat to see the writing right side up with the block up side down.  Tells a story.

I have a couple of BBC's here that revealed grease pencil markings on the block after hot tanking.  I figured hot tanking for sure would take that off but it didn't.   I'm guessing this stuff stays somewhat preserved if you're looking for it.  Paint doesn't stick well to the grease markings so even though they are painted over, after a while they tend to bleed through it seems.
  I also have a 1966 HE code 327 here that has HE written on the side of the block in huge letters.

What Bill showed are the dual stripes I was talking about.  I've seen that before.  I always thought that was to help a line worker quickly identify a double hump head, but just a guess.  I've only seen engine designation stuff on the sides of blocks, similar to what James posted and similar to what I have here.  I haven't seen DZ written on the front of a cylinder head until most recently so I thought I'd ask the question here.  Thanks guys.

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 06:54:59 PM »
The 10D norwood I restored a few years back... 302 on the side of the block upon tear down.

That’s there so they know what rotating assembly to install. Markings done before paint. 

And I changed some of the wording in my first post above.

Right off hand, not sure on small blocks - but on 69 big blocks, there was an engine code sticker put on the valve cover for ID.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:22:05 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016