Author Topic: "DZ" grease pencil mark  (Read 1747 times)

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
"DZ" grease pencil mark
« on: October 12, 2017, 01:56:33 PM »
I've looked at 2 very nice 69 Z/28's recently that had DZ written on the passenger side head.  Both Norwood cars.

Was this a common thing or another case of someone adding something that wasn't there originally?

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 06:30:28 PM »
If I see that on any car, my thought is ďover-restoredĒ.  Those are generally under the paint.

I would never do that on any car I own. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:18:44 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 09:38:21 PM »
So was this done at the plant originally?

I've seen original dual stripe marks on the cylinder heads so I know that was done off and on at Norwood.  I'm just curious about the "DZ" I've been seeing lately.

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 10:10:52 PM »
If I see that on any car, my thought is ďover-restoredĒ.  Might have been there a short time, but after several heat cycles ďgoneĒ.

....
I'll play devils advocate here......when restoring a car, isn't one goal to have it look as it did when it left the factory....marks included, even if they 'wore' off quickly?  ;)

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

BULLITT65

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 10:51:29 PM »
I thought BillOHIO 's 69 Z had that mark on his cylinder heads . He purchased his car with fairly low milage, and could make it out  - I think
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

BillOhio

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
    • photobucket
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 11:19:23 PM »
Mine had the dual stripes on the drivers side.  It had some weird marks on the side of the block that looked like ok
I will see where the stripes pics are
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

BillOhio

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
    • photobucket
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 11:27:12 PM »
The head is when it was still in the car. It was easier to see than what the picture shows. The side of the block, this was after it was hot tanked.
In either the how to Hotrod your small block Chevy or how to rebuild your small block Chevy, there's some pictures of blocks on the assembly line with the engine code written on the side of the block. Mine looked more like ok but I suppose it could have been DZ
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4428
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 03:07:51 AM »
My tendency is to agree with Mr Miller on this point...  i would not do it to my car, and I suggest the ones you seen with this recently were 'recent restorations'..  by restorers who read 'more' into things than they should... :)

as John Z said....   'restoration graffiti'....      UGH!
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Stingr69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 12:50:01 PM »
The sides of the block grease pencil marks are certainly legit and they did last.  There were several other marks that I do not know the meaning of on blocks. I have seen marks on other untouched examples.  That is how the line knew what parts to put in there.

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4428
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 01:52:33 PM »
I think the 'point' is that any grease pencil marks were put on the block *before it was completed and painted*, and generally the marks would be gone before/by the painting step.  Of course, we have seen a few examples where the marks became obvious *thru old thin* paint many years after and those situations are neat because they help us understand how the engine plants did their jobs.

What disgusts me is the some 'restorers' read such things and decide that their *restorations* are more authentic if they put their bright splashes of color and marks all over the car AFTER the parts are restored (makes them lots more obvious doesn't it?).. :)    THAT is 'restoration graffiti'...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 03:58:40 PM »
 Looking at the original posters comments about 'DZ', wasn't it a practice to hand write the motor prefix on the visible side of a head to make it easier for the person who had to retrieve the block from the rack? I'm sure we have all seen the pictures with motors and writing on the blocks and valve covers sitting on the train terminal loading docks. As I understood it, on racks of motors, there could be different prefix codes and unless one climbed onto the rack to look at the pad stamp the grease mark on the head made it easier to distinguish. I understand that marks on a bare block being assembled have had them painted over. I agree that some cars are way overdone with marks. I've seen a Chevelle at a show recently and it looked like someone shot at the engine compartment with a paintball gun.
    When you step back and look at the PBT, linkage paint dabs, the occasional surviving factory post-assembled inspection dabs (have them on my steering joint to shaft bolt), surviving marks on firewalls (I'm not referring to those under the blackout), marks written inside front end panels like extensions and valence, and the white 'X' on the washer fluid tops, there is already a lot of 'graffiti' when it left the factory.

Mike 
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »
In general, those markings would be for engine plant assembly purposes, buried under paint. Sometimes paint was thin or burned off a bit and then may have shown through.

I canít say it never happened (marks on top of paint) as there are a few pics out there. Mostly seen on MO engines in 68. That might have been due to a different type of marker used or a slightly different engine paint mix or supplier, making it easier to show through. But it wasnít the norm as far as I know.

Assembly line ID of a DZ should have been pretty easy. Think about it. Small block, aluminum intake, special valve covers.

Do what you want people. I just stated I would never do it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:54:02 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 06:23:22 PM »
The 10D norwood I restored a few years back... 302 on the side of the block upon tear down.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 06:46:41 PM »
Very cool James, first I've seen of that.  Neat to see the writing right side up with the block up side down.  Tells a story.

I have a couple of BBC's here that revealed grease pencil markings on the block after hot tanking.  I figured hot tanking for sure would take that off but it didn't.   I'm guessing this stuff stays somewhat preserved if you're looking for it.  Paint doesn't stick well to the grease markings so even though they are painted over, after a while they tend to bleed through it seems.
  I also have a 1966 HE code 327 here that has HE written on the side of the block in huge letters.

What Bill showed are the dual stripes I was talking about.  I've seen that before.  I always thought that was to help a line worker quickly identify a double hump head, but just a guess.  I've only seen engine designation stuff on the sides of blocks, similar to what James posted and similar to what I have here.  I haven't seen DZ written on the front of a cylinder head until most recently so I thought I'd ask the question here.  Thanks guys.

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 06:54:59 PM »
The 10D norwood I restored a few years back... 302 on the side of the block upon tear down.

Thatís there so they know what rotating assembly to install. Markings done before paint. 

And I changed some of the wording in my first post above.

Right off hand, not sure on small blocks - but on 69 big blocks, there was an engine code sticker put on the valve cover for ID.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:22:05 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2017, 07:02:15 PM »
 Here is one picture sent to me. It was taken in '68, notice the 'MO' on the head. As Bryon noted it was easy to spot a DZ motor. I am sure we can spot a DZ motor easy enough but maybe the person who had to pull many motorís off the racks for in-line builds in a fast paced environment was not as knowledgeable about what to look for so a hand written block code would have made it easier and less prone to error and time wasted to get the correct one.
 It's great having CRG back up to have discussions like these.  :D

Mike

67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2017, 07:24:52 PM »
I asked Jerry M. specifically about DZs and head markings he has seen and he said

ďAny that I've seen are badly faded and a lot of the orange paint is gone from the head.Ē
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 10:41:43 PM »
Here is one picture sent to me. It was taken in '68, notice the 'MO' on the head. As Bryon noted it was easy to spot a DZ motor. I am sure we can spot a DZ motor easy enough but maybe the person who had to pull many motor’s off the racks for in-line builds in a fast paced environment was not as knowledgeable about what to look for so a hand written block code would have made it easier and less prone to error and time wasted to get the correct one.
 It's great having CRG back up to have discussions like these.  :D

Mike



That's interesting.  Notice on a 68 it's on the passenger side because the alternator is opposite??   Reversed on 69.   That tells me these engines were fully dressed so they were making their notations where they would be visible....   Do you guys come to that conclusion or am I way off base?

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 01:45:59 AM »
Like I said, thatís not the norm.

Remember ďthe engine was sprayed with cheapest orange enamel available in bulk that monthĒ.  Maybe that month it was thinner than normal?

One picture does not make it clear cut.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Mike S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 03:56:02 AM »
 My thinking is it was written the the head after it was assembled (not dressed) and painted but before it went on the inventory rack. Just speculation.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 04:42:40 AM »
Possible.

But more likely it was for the engine plant assembly use. Double hump heads were available with both 1.94/1.50 valves and 2.02/1.60 valves. The DZ or MO notations were probably for engine assembly use.

I will see if I can get JohnZ to chime in.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2017, 05:34:51 PM »
There are potentially two different things we are taking about.

1. What was done at the engine assembly plant. The yellow markings on the block (such as 302) were put there to help the workers know which rotating assembly to install in the block. There were markings on the heads too, probably to help determine which heads to put on the block. The 302s got the heads with 2.02/1.60 valves. Whether this was done with grease pencil or a paint pen, I donít know. But these markings were painted over.

Jerry has seen many original cars and I quoted what he said above.

2. What was done at the vehicle assembly plant. Could some engines have gotten a code written on the head with a grease pencil? Possibly, but itís not the norm. By 69, big blocks had an broadcast code sticker on the valve cover. I canít say for small blocks. Flint and Tonawanda might have had different policies.

Try an experiment. Grease pencil a marking on the head of a freshly painted engine and see how long it lasts. I donít think it was done that way, but give it a try. Probably wonít last through many heat cycles on the front of a head. 

Itís graffiti. Like some restored cars with grease pencil markings for paint code on the firewall. Cars got them, but they were covered over by the firewall blackout paint. Grease pencil markings behind the rear seat generally survived, for obvious reasons.

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2017, 06:12:54 PM »
2 different markings. Both done by the engine plant.

- Side of the block, upside down to know what parts to load. Was painted over.

- End of head, broadcast code to help ID the block without looking at the pad. Used by both the engine and vehicle plants. I see them more in 67/8, but that's may be because the alternator is in the way in 69 or due the use of stickers.
Kurt S
CRG

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2017, 08:28:24 PM »
Thanks Kurt. Doesnít look like much paint on that head in the area with the letters. Was originally under the paint?

And this has broadened into a larger topic, but original question was for a DZ engine. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 05:04:39 AM »
No, it's clearly on top. I've seen it on many engines and JohnZ has talked about it.
Kurt S
CRG

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 12:59:09 PM »
Great discussion.  I don't mind what it's been morphed into.  I think it's helping to possibly understand, and I love the pictures.

I could possibly see the need for the engine code to be written on the head for the line workers as demonstrated on that 68 photo.  I can only imagine after doing the same thing day in and day out that all these engines just start to look the same after a while.  An easier way to identify to lessen mistakes does make sense.

But as Kurt mentioned, he's seen more on 67-68.  I've never seen stickers used on the small block stuff.   So what changed to not see the hand written marks as often (or not at all) on 69 SBC's???  Other than the alternator location obviously. 

william

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1810
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 01:24:32 PM »
Here's a pic that has been around for decades. It's an engine bay photo taken at delivery. Enlarge it and it does appear there is something written on the end of the head.

There is a similar photo of an L48 engine in a Nova SS. Nothing visible on the cylinder head.

If this was done [probably] it was hardly visible. Did they always do it? Probably not.



X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 03:30:15 PM »
I'll have to get my wife involved, I can't enlarge it anymore than what it is.  But I appreciate the pic Bill.  As it is though, I think I do see something there.

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2017, 04:06:31 AM »
On 69+ engines, the alternator would be in the way if they put it on the right side (like 67-68). So much harder to see in a fully dressed engine.
Kurt S
CRG

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2017, 06:22:44 AM »
Here is the best I could get in photoshop... I enlarged and then manipulated hue saturation and lightness...
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2017, 06:33:54 AM »
In Johnís Flint engine assembly article, there is a pic of an HE engine code - L48 with powerglide - sticker (placed on the back of passenger side valve cover). So they were using engine broadcast code stickers on at least some small block engines in at least part of the 69 model year. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 01:36:49 PM »
Here is the best I could get in photoshop... I enlarged and then manipulated hue saturation and lightness...
Here is the best I could get in photoshop... I enlarged and then manipulated hue saturation and lightness...

   Thanks James.  There is definitely something there.  It doesn't appear to be the dual racing stripe deal I've seen before.  If it's letters my imagination isn't working.  What are your thoughts??

Kelley W King

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 07:58:40 PM »
I seem to remember a picture of a as delivered car here or ? that was to show paint overspray on the exhaust manifolds. I remember it having grease pencil marks on the head.
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

jdv69z

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
  • 69 RS Z/28 52E
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 08:52:19 PM »
On 69+ engines, the alternator would be in the way if they put it on the right side (like 67-68). So much harder to see in a fully dressed engine.

So if I understand the assembly plant process, workers on the engine dress line pulled the correct engine from racks of engines which had come from Flint/Tonawanda based on paper work for the next vehicle on the line. At that point they would need to see the engine code. Once they start the engine on the dress line, wouldn't it be locked in sequence to go into the correct car? So once the engine is fully dressed, there would not be a need to see an engine code because the engine was already locked in sequence. Sound reasonable?
Jimmy V.

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 01:13:03 PM »
I seem to remember a picture of a as delivered car here or ? that was to show paint overspray on the exhaust manifolds. I remember it having grease pencil marks on the head.

If it's out there I'd love to see more pics.  James' picture is a great example of what is an original 69 photo, but I can't figure out what's on there.  Bill's car had the stripes on the head that he took great photos of.

GreenNV

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
    • My 69 Restoration
Re: "DZ" grease pencil mark
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2017, 04:43:51 PM »
In 2004, I took these pictures of a low mile CTB coded LT1 engine removed in the early 70's from a wrecked car. Although a 70 motor, you can clearly see where the plant has written the engine suffix on the sides of the block, and where they have placed two lines (forming an X) on both cylinder heads. The front had the X on the drivers sides as well but hard to see as the paint held up better on the front than it did the back. These were shared with Greg Roberts on the Nova site after they were taken.

Like I said...these are from a 1970 build but it does tie together with earlier practices from the preceding years.









1968 Grotto Blue Rallysport  - GM Canada Docs
1969 Rally Green Z/28 - GM Canada Docs
1955 Chevrolet