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Author Topic: Barrett-Jackson lawsuit  (Read 29425 times)
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 09:29:37 PM »

Very, very few nice Camaros there.  Saw lots of fake paperwork this year.

Jerry
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VI009DZ
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 09:57:39 PM »

Forging paperwork, trim tags, restamped parts and lying sellers will NEVER make it less enjoyable for me to drive my car.  I'd enjoy the car as much if it were worth $500 or $200,000.

That's funny that you say that Jerry.  I saw a lot of nice looking "oh, this baby's original original, barn fresh, survivor, 1-owner, documented, matching, verified, blah blah) camaros bring less than I'd expected.
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 10:09:30 PM »

That is because the people were buying the over-restored, made up, recreation cars
with the beautiful base/clear paint, and all the phony paperwork.

The true survivor cars with the dull laquer, or faded paint, and original interiors don't appeal to that type crowd.

What is sad is, that the phony paperwork is starting to get very good.

I laughed a few times when you see that they added the "seat spring" stain.
The Phony POP's are getting extreemly close.
The trim tags are getting better everyday.

Soon the paperwork won't mean anything anymore.
I really don't know what this will do to our hobby, but it cant be good.
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Mr12771
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2007, 12:27:14 AM »

Is it's true the blue 69 Z28 JL8 car was fake? I heard restamped drive train, fake POP, fake papers? Did anyone look at the car and or paper work?

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/carlist/cardetails.asp?In_AuctionID=221&In_LotNumber=1233
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jdv69z
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2007, 11:05:59 AM »

It is amazing to me how this whole hobby has gone full circle. Used to be fixing up your muscle car was just plain fun. Now it's too damn serious! What do you do with 69 Z with 4 wheel discs and a crossram anyway? Store it in Fort Knox?

Jimmy V.
 
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Jimmy V.
Ron C.
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 03:14:11 PM »

That is because the people were buying the over-restored, made up, recreation cars
with the beautiful base/clear paint, and all the phony paperwork.

The true survivor cars with the dull laquer, or faded paint, and original interiors don't appeal to that type crowd.

What is sad is, that the phony paperwork is starting to get very good.

I laughed a few times when you see that they added the "seat spring" stain.
The Phony POP's are getting extreemly close.
The trim tags are getting better everyday.

Soon the paperwork won't mean anything anymore.
I really don't know what this will do to our hobby, but it cant be good.

your right Jeff,its sad that the hobby has gone to the criminals who crawl out from under the rocks when big money gets involved.B.J. auctions should be fully libal for all cars that they sell as original matching number cars.The phoney trim tags and P.O.Ps is one reason I was adament on trying to get my old 67Z back.I knew that the trim tag on that car wasnt a fake when I bought it back in 1983.It is buyer beware and if your looking at a car look very closely at all the details.
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67Z/28,67RSZ/28,69RSZ28,71SS454CHEVELLE,02Z4C35thSSCAMAROGMMG#11PERF EDITION 500HP
paceme
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2007, 03:36:30 PM »

That is because the people were buying the over-restored, made up, recreation cars
with the beautiful base/clear paint, and all the phony paperwork.

The true survivor cars with the dull laquer, or faded paint, and original interiors don't appeal to that type crowd.

What is sad is, that the phony paperwork is starting to get very good.

I laughed a few times when you see that they added the "seat spring" stain.
The Phony POP's are getting extreemly close.
The trim tags are getting better everyday.

Soon the paperwork won't mean anything anymore.
I really don't know what this will do to our hobby, but it cant be good.



I can't agree with the statment regarding survivor cars. Based on my experience survivor cars are as , if not more valuable than concours restored cars in the market. The market interms of buyers may be smaller, but the # of true survivors is even smaller (very rare). This puts them at a premium. A good example was last years survivor Z at BJ that sold for 211K, for a base Z28 with few options. Since survivors are my focus of interest I hear of survivor car selling for tremendous amount of money. To me they will alway bring a premium, and as clones and fake paperwork improve so will the demand for pure pedigreed cars.

I believe the quote above hold true for speculators, trophy buyers and novices however. Benchmark cars are invaluable to the hobby and help preserve our cars true heritage, not some restorers interpretation.
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Steve Shauger
Vintage Certification™ Program, Providing Recognition And Status To Unrestored Vehicles. Website www.vintagecertification.com
Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2007, 09:43:36 PM »

I agree 100%.
I would prefer a survivor car everytime., and pay a premium for it.

Just noticed this year, the auction crowd prefered the customs, or so  it seemed.
Many looked right past the original non-restored - used car.
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Charley
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 06:43:33 PM »

Finally chiming in. The blue JL8 Z28 was very real with very real paperwork. I owned it a few years ago. It was bought new by Dave Emmanuel the automotive writer. He even used it in a couple magazine articles in the 70's. It had the orig window sticker and other paperwork.  I think the block wasdecked but it was the orig block and I confirmed the car with Emmanuel.This same car sold at RM in Monterey last year and both times the auction card said it had paperwork but I never saw any of it on display. It was on the cover of Sports Car Market Magazine last month but that also was not mentioned on the Barrett-Jackson auction card. I passed by it at Monterey and didn't realize it was my old car. Someone since me has added the crossram.
 As for Barrett-Jackson not being the venue to sell survivor cars, in addition to the Z28 last year there was the L78 convert the year before. Or the killer 12K mile 68 L78 Camaro the year before that. Each time those cars brought record  type money.

  As for the article written by the 4 wheel drift guy I have posted on other forums that I put his article on the same level as a grocery store check out line mag like National Inquirer etc. I consider most of what he said as crap.
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MMMM_ERT
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2007, 06:49:30 PM »



Just noticed this year, the auction crowd prefered the customs, or so  it seemed.
Many looked right past the original non-restored - used car.


I noticed that too....   

I read in this weeks  Autoweek the owner of Russo/Steele (Alcazar?) claims that the custom resto-mod cars are dropping in price...yet they were the ones that seemed to take in big money at BJ.   
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1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2007, 07:16:11 PM »

Here was another interesting article from a magazine called "Sports Car Market".
No mention of any names, but it seems clear which Auction house he is referring to.
Actually I think I recognize the guy in the picture Smiley

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 07:20:04 PM by Pacecarjeff » Logged
Hylton
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2007, 11:08:14 PM »

Thanks for the post Jeff but the article basically says that:

A) Phantom bids are almost impossible to prove in court; and
B) Owners (or their agents) can legally bid up their cars at B-J.

Here's a thought:

If someone wants to buy a car with no proven history and without going through some kind of research, don't they deserve that car? The Cortez Silver Cross-Ram car that went for $132K at B-J comes to mind.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2007, 11:29:06 PM »

Thanks for the post Jeff but the article basically says that:

A) Phantom bids are almost impossible to prove in court; and
B) Owners (or their agents) can legally bid up their cars at B-J.

Here's a thought:

If someone wants to buy a car with no proven history and without going through some kind of research, don't they deserve that car? The Cortez Silver Cross-Ram car that went for $132K at B-J comes to mind.


No problem with any of that. But if that is wht is happening.
Then don't call it a "no reserve" auction.

If the auction house knows what the seller wants, and helps phantom bid to that amount, THEN THAT IS A RESERVE.

Reminds me of the oriental rug auctions.
No reserve is supposed to be just that. Not the auction house phantom bidding.

I really don't think there is anything wrong with buying back your own car.
I certainly would not have the nerve to send my car (a real car, and not a clone) through at no reserve, without having a plan to
make sure I sell the car for what I want, or take it home and keep it. (and pay the fee)

But on the other hand, it is not so much fun to watch a auction with a bunch of cars - not meeting their reserve. That is BORING...

A lot of people don't care about the pedigee or numbers, and just want a cool car.
so be it.
But it needs to be regulated to make sure the whole thing is on the level - what ever level that is.

Most people don't know how a slot machine works, but the state regulates it, to be sure it is fair.
Like the Casinos - just make sure it is not a huge scam - cheating people.
Lots of mioney involved - not everyone there is buying multiple $100K cars, some are spending their life savings.

It should be fair.  IMO
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Charley
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2007, 10:36:15 AM »

You guys are assuming that because the pic in the above post is at Barrett-Jackson that the writer meant his bidder agreement allowing the auction house to bid for the seller was at Barrett-Jackson also. He never said it was. I might still have my bidder agreement here. I will look for it later today. Or maybe someone else has one.
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Charley
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2007, 07:23:03 PM »

Here is a Press Release from Barrett Jackson, outlining their position on this matter:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. – February 1, 2007
Earlier this week, officials at the Barrett-Jackson Auction Company were made aware of a “blog” making
false allegations regarding the Company’s business practices. While the author of the blog decided to
remove the posting after receiving a written statement from Barrett-Jackson, the original blog content has
been copied to numerous other Web sites and other locations on the Internet. The reply from Barrett-
Jackson has not been copied to these additional locations.
The statements published in the original posting, and repeated in numerous other forums since that time,
are untrue and are potentially harmful to Barrett-Jackson’s business interests. Barrett-Jackson issues the
following statement for the purposes of clarifying the situation and providing its position regarding the
accusations made against the Company.

There is no lawsuit against Barrett-Jackson alleging improper or unlawful auction practices.

Barrett-Jackson has historically offered a combination of reserve and no reserve vehicles across
the auction block. In a sale with a reserve, a vehicle is not sold if the reserve price is not met. In a
no reserve sale, every vehicle that crosses the block is sold to the highest bidder, regardless of the
amount of the last bid that is made before the fall of the auctioneer’s hammer. In a no reserve sale,
the owner of a car may not bid (by himself or through an agent) on his own car.

In recent years, Barrett-Jackson has run auctions that are completely no reserve. This is a
business decision made by Barrett-Jackson; there is no legal or other requirement that all vehicles
be sold at no reserve. In the future, Barrett-Jackson may opt to offer vehicles with a reserve.

Owner buy-backs and so-called “chandelier” or “shill” bidding are forbidden on all no reserve
vehicles sold at Barrett-Jackson. The practice is specifically prohibited in the consignment contract
signed by each seller.

Barrett-Jackson’s auction staff monitors all bid activity to the best of its ability while a vehicle is on
the block. If Barrett-Jackson sees that an owner (or someone known to be the owner’s agent) is
bidding on his own vehicle, the Company stops the bidding and reverts to the last bid.

With the size of Barrett-Jackson’s auction venue and the presence of thousands of registered
bidders, it is physically impossible to guarantee that no owner (or an unidentified owner’s agent)
attempts to bid on his own vehicle. For this reason, it is Barrett-Jackson’s policy to penalize any
owner who successfully bids on his own vehicle by charging that person both the seller’s
commission and the buyer’s premium on that vehicle. This penalty serves as a meaningful
deterrent for those who may otherwise choose to ignore the rules. Individuals who fail to abide by
auction regulations may also be barred from participating in future Barrett-Jackson events.
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Barrett-Jackson continually updates its practices and procedures to implement additional measures
to prohibit owner buy-backs and to prevent the practice of “chandelier” bidding in any no reserve
situation. These procedures include a continually evolving use of technology and visual aids to
assist the auction staff in identifying owners who may attempt to bid on their own vehicles.

State and federal auction laws provide that the auctioneer has discretion in calling the final bid and
declaring the goods sold with the fall of the hammer. There is no regulation governing the amount
of time a vehicle must remain on the auction block, nor does Barrett-Jackson’s consignment
contract guarantee the amount of time a vehicle will spend on the auction block.

Barrett-Jackson does not run its own cars through the auction and provide “shill bidders” to inflate
prices of vehicles.

Barrett-Jackson is diligent in its efforts to run a clean auction on every level. The Company has
been audited numerous times and has never been found to be in violation of any state or federal
auction regulation.
A live auction is a complex, challenging scenario with a limitless number of variables in any given situation.
There is no way to guarantee a flawless sale of every vehicle that will please every seller and every buyer.
No auction company can guarantee that every individual will be happy with every sale. Nevertheless,
Barrett-Jackson takes the interests of its customers—on both sides of the equation—very seriously and will
continue to do so as the Company works to refine and improve its policies and procedures today and into
the future.
In a related matter also mentioned on the recent Internet postings, there have been numerous rumors
circulating regarding Barrett-Jackson’s decision to revoke journalist Keith Martin’s media credentials during
the Barrett-Jackson 2007 Scottsdale auction. Barrett-Jackson responded directly to legitimate inquiries
about this situation and has identified the individual who overheard Mr. Martin’s comments in the Barrett-
Jackson media center (the circumstance which led to the decision to revoke his media credentials).
Statements indicating that the situation was fabricated, or that Barrett-Jackson has been unable to produce
any corroboration of the events, are untrue. This matter has already received more attention than it
warranted, and Barrett-Jackson has made the business decision to not engage in discussions that may
encourage further speculation.
About The Barrett-Jackson Auction Company
Established in 1971 and headquartered in Scottsdale, Ariz., Barrett-Jackson specializes in providing
products and services to classic and collector car owners, astute collectors and automotive enthusiasts
around the world. The company produces the “World’s Greatest Collector Car Events™” in Scottsdale and
Palm Beach, Fla. For more information, visit www.barrett-jackson.com or call (480) 421-6694.
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