68 Z28 open element air cleaner

[68Zproject]

Is there a way to tell if the difference in the chrome lids on originals and repops?  In the other thread about the silk screening and bases, the lid business never came up.  I have an original base and the lid is nice but has no silk screening left.  It could be a repop or off another application but I was going to just have Paragon or somebody put the letters on it unless there's a way to tell that it's not identical to an original.  I was also thinking of getting their air filter element that was correct but the whole kit was $128 and if I buy a lid and element separately it would actually cost more so I thought I would get the whole kit?  Anyone need a base?

[bertfam]

The main differences are the width and depth of the wing nut indentation. The cheap foreign repops are fairly shallow and not as wide as originals. The other main difference is the beading on the side. Some of the repops don't have this. And of course is the flash chrome process. Repops are usually "show" chrome.

Ed

[68Zproject]

Thanks Ed.  You wouldn't have any dimensions would you?  I'm looking at the Paragon one listed in the other thread on open element air cleaners in this topic.  Is that generally regarded as accurate or same as original.  I've just seen a lot of talk about the bases and nothing about the tops but I get what you mean about them.  I have an original lid and next to mine I can see no difference.  Is it fairly obvious?

[bertfam]

Well, it's really difficult to take pictures of something so small. Especially on a chrome lid!

But... that being said, here's what you need to look for:

1. Original beading - it's not really "beading" in that sense of the word, but it's where the metal is folded up on itself on the side of the lid. On original lids, the edge of the fold goes about half way up the side (see the first picture below). On repop lids, the edge of the fold goes about three quarter the way up (see second picture below). I know, it's hard to tell the differences in the pictures below, but trust me, the second picture fold is higher!

2. Stud hole "dish" - On originals, the very center of the stud hole "dish" is raised like a rounded pyramid (see the third picture below). On repops, it's flat (see the fourth picture below). Also note on some of the repops, the width of the entire stud hole "dish" (I'm not talking about just the rounded pyramid part, but the entire stud hole indentation) isn't as wide as originals. Although difficult to take a measurement on a rounded corner, the width of an original is approx 3".

I hope you can get the drift of what I mean from the pictures.

Ed

[bertfam]

Because of our 4 attachment rule, I have to add that I've also included a picture of a totally incorrect repop lid (see picture below). No "beading", the stud hole is flat nor is it 3" wide.

Ed

[68Zproject]

Wow, that's what I was looking for, thanks Ed.  That explains the lid I bought off Ebay many moons ago.  It had the middle hole kind of gouged out and I didn't pay much attention to it until I saw your post.  It has been tapped down for some reason to make it look like a crater instead of what it probably looked like, yours originally.  I'll get pictures but you'll see what I mean.  The wing nut hits the sides before it hits the bottom.  Side by side I can see the differences in the one that's on the car that's like your second picture set (the "bead" and the indent).

[JKZ27]

There are currently some repros with the bead and wing nut dish. I'm unsure of how "correct" they are otherwise. I have a CHQ repro on my 68 with the bead. I'll try to grab some pics for reference if you'd like.

http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/23492/1965-1966-1967-1968-1969-1970-Camaro-Air-cleaner-lid-w-silk-screen/

[Tx-Z 302]

I have looked at those, I was hoping to find a survivor. Thanks for the info

[68Zproject]

I've looked at the threads on here, TC and Z28.net.  Some things seems to be clear but others are a bit muddy.  My base looks like the ones on other threads but there's an indent on some and not others.  Also, my base seems to have a pressed in or formed pipe for the arrestor as opposed to spot welds.

[68Zproject]

Also, my lid that's on the car looks a lot like the one that's listed as an original Z28 on ebay that was in the other thread about this subject.  Reviewing the other threads and seeing Ed's pictures kind of has me more confused.

My lid on car now


My ebay find years ago


The proposed original lids on the other threads look like the one on my car and have some kind of rolled over lip around the hole where lid cover goes over the stud in the carb.   They also don't have the reverse cone feature popping upward in Ed's lid..  I realize the ebay find lid has been gouged out and that part could be missing. 

[bertfam]

I didn't take a picture of the underside, but yes, my lid also has the rolled lip. You can kind of see it in my post #7 in THIS THREAD.

As for the arrestor pipe, I've seen both spot welded and press fit used so there may have been (and probably was) more than one supplier. The same goes for the lid reverse cone. There may have been more than one supplier so there may be more than one style. What I'm trying to convey though, is that the carb stud hole shouldn't be flat.

Ed

[68Zproject]

Flater than this or like this?


I did measure the thickness of my two lids where the lip rolls up over the edge like your two pictures in your "beading" pictures above and there was only a .01" difference between the two lids.  The ebay lid was thicker overall by .03" so that may have just been a manufacturer difference I guess or is that about what it would be between the two lids you show in reply #3?

[bertfam]

Going by the P&A's, there were at least 4 chrome lids used between 1967 and 1969!

6422184
6421832
6421746
6422356

What the differences are is beyond me. So therefore, there may have been subtle changes in the design like you're seeing.

The lid I posted pictures of above is original to my car, so I can safely say that in 05D, 1968 (4th week of May), on Wednesday May 22nd (when my car was assembled), at the LA plant, on the L78/L89 engines installed in convertibles, this lid was used!! Before or after that, I can't say for sure.

 

However, while I can't be 100 percent positive, I believe that most original lids I've ever seen have the cone.

Also note that a chrome lid was used from the mid 60's on the Chevelle, Corvette and full size cars, and well into the mid 1970's on the Corvette and a few other GM cars (with even MORE part numbers), so even though they're listed for Camaro and/or Corvette, not every lid you see on ebay actually came off a first generation Camaro (or Corvette)!!

Ed

[68Zproject]

So the story goes with an almost 50 year old car, wow.  I guess my best recourse is to hope for time travel.  But, I really do appreciate your help Ed. Thank you.

[bertfam]

Jerry said that Paragon has an exact reproduction lid that's acceptable for Concours judging and has the GM silk screening. I can't find the part on their site (all they show are the triple chrome lids), but the part number for the "assembly" with the flash chrome lid is 8513K. I'll check Jerry and see if he knows just the lid part number.

Ed

[68Zproject]

If you don't mind could you ask him if that kit listed in the other thread with the base, filter and lid has this same lid that's correct?  I'm going to keep my base and need a filter so I thought about getting the whole thing and parting out the base in it.

https://www.paragoncorvette.com/p-357726-air-cleaner-assembly.aspx

[bertfam]

Well, that's the one, but note that this is a CORVETTE part, not Camaro. I say that because per the AIM's, the 68-69 Corvette used P/N 6423272 Air Cleaner Assembly, but the 68-69 Camaro used P/N 6423907 Air Cleaner Assembly. Two different parts. Note the differences in the arrestor pipe orientation on the bottom of the bases (see picture below). The base that comes with the Paragon assembly is P/N 2091 and has the orientation like my "Corvette" base in the picture.

Ed

[68Zproject]

I think the list that Kurt posted had the 68-69 z's using the 3272 and the 67's show the 3907 and the 68-69 big blocks too.  Either way, the base they show at Paragon isn't correct for my car as it looks like the corvette.  I don't know how it could be the same part # although that doesn't mean much these days with parts suppliers.

[bertfam]

Per the AIM's, the Z28 went through a few changes! In 1967 it was P/N 6423907. Then in 1968, per note 5 dated 11-27-67, it started out with the 6423272, then went to the 6423907. Then in 1969, per note 1 dated 6-30-68, it went from the 6423907 BACK to the 6423272!! Jeez, can't Chevy make up their freekin' minds???

Ed

[68Zproject]

No they can't and I don't remember if you had a late car too, but there's a lot of things that got put on cars in the 5 range like mine that got some left over 67 parts.  I remember I freaked out once looking at steering arm numbers or something like that thinking someone had changed all these parts until I read about GM using up inventory to finish cars toward the end of the model year.

I wonder if that is sometimes the case for these things like the air cleaners.  They obviously would fit any of the Z28's any year so what's a part #?  Same thing for the straight vs curved lettering on the lids.  Without decisive evidence on the lettering, I would speculate so far that supply and leftovers could be the reason for no definitive pattern on some items. 

The only way to know for sure what was on my car would be to go back in time and watch it being made on the factory floor which is about as likely as me finding a distributor and fan clutch at a reasonable price for my car.

[Tx-Z 302]

Is there a difference in negative hieght?  Distance from bottom where element sits to th carb flange?

[68Zproject]

See reply 9 and 10.  I'm not sure it's been decided 100% though.  I personally would like to see a more definitive answer for original bases for the 68 z28.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=15590.0;all

[bertfam]

Is there a difference in negative hieght?  Distance from bottom where element sits to th carb flange?

I finally got a chance to measure them and yes, they are a bit different. VERY difficult to measure, but it appears the Camaro is 2" and the Corvette is 2.125". That may not be exact since I used a tape measure and not a caliper (mine broke a few weeks ago), but you can definitely see the difference, even with the tape measure.

Ed

[Tx-Z 302]

Thx ed I will measure mine and share the results, but even then I don't know if mine is oem or repop? So it won't mean much.

[68Zproject]

Me 3

[68Zproject]

If we're measuring the same, I get 2" also.  I measured from the bottom of the base to the bottom of the carb flange.  IE, upside down from the bottom to the bottom.

[bertfam]

If we're measuring the same, I get 2" also.  I measured from the bottom of the base to the bottom of the carb flange.  IE, upside down from the bottom to the bottom.

Yes, that sounds right.

Ed

[68camaroz28]

Jerry said that Paragon has an exact reproduction lid that's acceptable for Concours judging and has the GM silk screening. I can't find the part on their site (all they show are the triple chrome lids), but the part number for the "assembly" with the flash chrome lid is 8513K. I'll check Jerry and see if he knows just the lid part number.

Ed

That's been a excellent repro for sure. Part#6423272 is what I have listed in my files from what Jerry or possibly JohnZ had stated some years past.
     https://www.paragoncorvette.com/p-357726-air-cleaner-assembly.aspx   

[Z28Project]

Part # 1756 is the lid only.  That's the flash chrome as original with silk screen instructions.

[68Zproject]

Maybe I'll just get the lid re-screened.  It looks like my base can't be proven to not be original and one of the two lids would be acceptable.  I also found an original cw212 air filter I bought years ago that looks just like the one they sell.  It's mesh and not the soldered wire, but I haven't seen anyone that sells a soldered wire diagonal one like should be on the 68.  Even the "survivor that tx302 was looking at on epay was a mesh and it didn't even have the white silkscreen like mine.  I guess that's as good as it can get for now.