Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker

[william]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-/322407746041?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4b10ffc9f9:g:70UAAOSwA3dYj50k&item=322407746041

Ad states: "Original Window Sticker included!"

VIN is 124379L502362; built in Van Nuys CA and shipped 2,800 miles to NY. Charge was $49. Might have made more sense to build it at Norwood, 677 miles from the dealer but what do I know. Couldn't even list the option codes in alphabetical order.

[x77-69z28]

Yeah, I wonder how many Van Nuys built camaros were sold new on Long Island

[Mike S]

 Pape is still in business. The family used to be big in sports cars and racing. Not sure if they do today. Still, I wonder if they have original records for this car to prove otherwise.

Mike

[X33RS]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-/322407746041?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4b10ffc9f9:g:70UAAOSwA3dYj50k&item=322407746041

Ad states: "Original Window Sticker included!"

VIN is 124379L502362; built in Van Nuys CA and shipped 2,800 miles to NY. Charge was $49. Might have made more sense to build it at Norwood, 677 miles from the dealer but what do I know. Couldn't even list the option codes in alphabetical order.

I've always wondered if there was some sort of percentage breakdown of this because it does seem like an odd thing to do.

Mine is a Norwood car but best I can tell was sold new here in AZ.   Strange when Van Nuys is so close.

My Formula was built in Van Nuys and sold right up the coast in San Fran.  Makes more sense to me.

[ZLP955]

I asked a question about the assembly plant origin versus the final destination here a while ago (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=13592), didn't find an answer but several members have cars that didn't originate at the plant nearest their location too.

[Boston14]

Here is yet another car with U17 and the rare clock delete option. I believe the assembly plants must have run out of clocks at various times during production............... You think?? NOT!!

[X33RS]

I asked a question about the assembly plant origin versus the final destination here a while ago (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=13592), didn't find an answer but several members have cars that didn't originate at the plant nearest their location too.

Sounds like it happened occasionally then.    I can understand the Norwood cars being spread out because that plant produced the majority of production.  Van Nuys on the other hand doesn't seem as plausible for that reason, but I guess they did.

[X33RS]

Here is yet another car with U17 and the rare clock delete option. I believe the assembly plants must have run out of clocks at various times during production............... You think?? NOT!!

I see that little hiccup A LOT in these "restored" cars,  but I saw a 69 the other day that appeared to be largely unmolested, and it had a setup I don't remember seeing before.  Console, no gauges, no tach, but it had the clock.   Go figure.  Just a speedo, clock and fuel gauge in the dash.

I'm guessing in this instance the clock could be ordered separate...?   I haven't seen cars restored like this before so it caught my eye.  Thought it was rather unusual to see.

[bcmiller]

It's tough to say.

Probably pretty rare for a LOS car to be delivered to the east coast. Can't say it NEVER happened but maybe a case of a service person ordering it on the west coast and then ending being transferred to the east coast before delivery?

On options, tough to prove what is original without docs. A lot of things have been added to cars over time. Might have been pulled from another car that was wrecked early? Lots of restorations were done in the 80s and without extremely close examination, can sometimes be hard to tell from original - because original parts could have been used. And lacquer paint was still readily available.

[william]

Here is yet another car with U17 and the rare clock delete option. I believe the assembly plants must have run out of clocks at various times during production............... You think?? NOT!!

I see that little hiccup A LOT in these "restored" cars,  but I saw a 69 the other day that appeared to be largely unmolested, and it had a setup I don't remember seeing before.  Console, no gauges, no tach, but it had the clock.   Go figure.  Just a speedo, clock and fuel gauge in the dash.

I'm guessing in this instance the clock could be ordered separate...?   I haven't seen cars restored like this before so it caught my eye.  Thought it was rather unusual to see.

A clock [U35] was optional on any '69 not ordered with U16 or U17. Not rare, 20,330 built. Regardless of what you see on ebay a clock was included with Special Instrumentation. Often, the dash housing is replaced and the clock left out.

[X33RS]

Here is yet another car with U17 and the rare clock delete option. I believe the assembly plants must have run out of clocks at various times during production............... You think?? NOT!!

I see that little hiccup A LOT in these "restored" cars,  but I saw a 69 the other day that appeared to be largely unmolested, and it had a setup I don't remember seeing before.  Console, no gauges, no tach, but it had the clock.   Go figure.  Just a speedo, clock and fuel gauge in the dash.

I'm guessing in this instance the clock could be ordered separate...?   I haven't seen cars restored like this before so it caught my eye.  Thought it was rather unusual to see.

A clock [U35] was optional on any '69 not ordered with U16 or U17. Not rare, 20,330 built. Regardless of what you see on ebay a clock was included with Special Instrumentation. Often, the dash housing is replaced and the clock left out.

Cool, so what I saw was legit.  I had a feeling it was. Not rare in a production sense but rarely seen this way now.   Funny how you just never see them restored that way today. 

[Z28Project]

The thing that bugs me on this is that the more this stuff goes on the more it will be accepted as correct by the uninformed masses.  The missing clock with U17 and the thing I'm seeing more and more is the unpainted perimeter on the front grill.  I hate that look!

[X33RS]

I here ya John.  I think it comes with the territory.  We have what is probably the most copied car in existence.

Funny thing about that U17 deal.  I almost always see the console gauges and tach without the clock.  Like 90% of the 69's I look at.
  Yet the one I saw the other day with speedo/clock/fuel in the dash and no gauges is fairly common as William posted, however I've seen only that one in my lifetime that I can remember, lol.
  I've seen more of the speedo/fuel/tach combo in the dash (no console gauges) than I have of the clock deal above and this center fuel setup is supposed to be like hens teeth.  Go figure.
These cars are so messed with and full of all kinds of stuff anymore it really makes you start to appreciate the original unrestored stuff that is commanding decent money these days.

[william]

In his book "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors" John De Lorean used the '69 Camaro dash cluster as an example of how out of control Chevy had become.

"At one time there were an unbelievable 2,720 possible alternatives for Camaro dashboards."

I have been able to duplicate that number. It may be technically correct but assumed everything was available without exception. For example the COPO 140 mph speedo was n/a with U17 Special Instrumentation. But, there were combos you may never see such as a 140 speedo with U16 and a column-shift TH400. The actual number is probably 1,880.

There were 5 colors, 4 possible speedometers, 4 possible tachometers plus the other options. Give it a shot some cold winter day.

[HOT3O2]

Would the plastic dash be different for one with a clock verses one without a clock? In other words were there two different dashes depending if you had a clock or not?

[X33RS]

Would the plastic dash be different for one with a clock verses one without a clock? In other words were there two different dashes depending if you had a clock or not?

Other than the block off in the center there is no difference.  The mounts are still there for the clock if you knock out the center plastic piece.   So why people don't add it with the gauge package is hard to understand.  They either aren't aware of how it should be, or they don't want to spend another $200 on their expensive restoration to at least make it appear correct.

[X33RS]

. For example the COPO 140 mph speedo was n/a with U17 Special Instrumentation.

William,
I saw a COPO with the U17 setup and the 140 speedo not long ago.  The owner was calling it one of those "double COPO's"   which I believe included the 140 speedo, 15" wheels etc...

So in this instance would the U17 console not be possible to order??

[william]

Would the plastic dash be different for one with a clock verses one without a clock? In other words were there two different dashes depending if you had a clock or not?

There were two housings used in production: standard and with tachometer.

[william]

. For example the COPO 140 mph speedo was n/a with U17 Special Instrumentation.

William,
I saw a COPO with the U17 setup and the 140 speedo not long ago.  The owner was calling it one of those "double COPO's"   which I believe included the 140 speedo, 15" wheels etc...

So in this instance would the U17 console not be possible to order??

The ECL listing for COPO 9737 does not include a clock. 4 of the 12 ECLs were for COPO 9560 [ZL1]; no clock or center fuel gauge. 8 were for COPO 9561 [L72]; all of them list the fuel gauge. At least 2 ZL1s were built with COPO 9737 [#3 & #65] neither has a tach. 

BTW COPO 9737 required either COPO 9560 or 9561.

You may have seen COPO N667781 which I believe has #9737 and U17. My information is that U17 was added by a previous owner.

A repro 140 speedo has been available for many years. Tough to know what is real these days.

[69Z28-RS]

Can someone explain what 'ECL' is (ie.  what words go with those letters).  I'm familiar with ECO, ECP, ECN, etc..  but was never exposed to ECL in my work.   I'm wondering if it stands for Engineering Change Listing?  which simply lists multiple prior ECO/ECN's together as a single entry on a sales order??

[Z28Project]

Exception Control Letter    Not that I'm the expert.  I read that in Macneish's book.

[69Z28-RS]

Makes sense, Steve...      Thanks.

[KurtS]

Would the plastic dash be different for one with a clock verses one without a clock? In other words were there two different dashes depending if you had a clock or not?

The hole was stamped out for the clock/center fuel gage and a brace was added to the dash.

[JohnZ]

Would the plastic dash be different for one with a clock verses one without a clock? In other words were there two different dashes depending if you had a clock or not?

The hole for the clock or the tach was die-pierced in a hydrauiic fixture in the assembly plant, on the dash cluster subassembly line.

[ko-lek-tor]

Here is yet another car with U17 and the rare clock delete option. I believe the assembly plants must have run out of clocks at various times during production............... You think?? NOT!!

I see that little hiccup A LOT in these "restored" cars,  but I saw a 69 the other day that appeared to be largely unmolested, and it had a setup I don't remember seeing before.  Console, no gauges, no tach, but it had the clock.   Go figure.  Just a speedo, clock and fuel gauge in the dash.

I'm guessing in this instance the clock could be ordered separate...?   I haven't seen cars restored like this before so it caught my eye.  Thought it was rather unusual to see.

A clock [U35] was optional on any '69 not ordered with U16 or U17. Not rare, 20,330 built. Regardless of what you see on ebay a clock was included with Special Instrumentation. Often, the dash housing is replaced and the clock left out.

Cool, so what I saw was legit.  I had a feeling it was. Not rare in a production sense but rarely seen this way now.   Funny how you just never see them restored that way today. 

You will see one restored that way as that is how my car came.

[ZLP955]

The hole for the clock or the tach was die-pierced in a hydrauiic fixture in the assembly plant, on the dash cluster subassembly line.

John, why does the AIM show the cutout dimensions in the instrument carrier (U35/A1 view A) if a fixture was used - or did a worker still have to be involved to position it correctly?

[BULLITT65]

Going back to the clock question. I have seen a console clock plate it seems, was this just a 67-68 option for the console?
Or was there a dealer accessory option to add a clock to the console that didn't have gauges?

[bertfam]

I have seen a console clock plate it seems, was this just a 67-68 option for the console?

The U35 clock was available all three years from the factory, but for 1967 the D55 Console was required IF you also ordered the U57 8 track tape player. For 1968 and 1969, you could get it with or without the console.

It was also available as a dealer installed "Accessory".

Ed

[BULLITT65]

thanks ED!