Author Topic: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities  (Read 12208 times)

hihorse

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1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« on: January 10, 2017, 10:29:56 PM »
Do we have an M22 QTY estimate on each  of the solid lifter engines

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 04:09:15 AM »
Not really.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 01:44:53 PM »
Figured would have an est. like the paint colours. My L78 came with M20 (and 410) guy raced the car, was it common to order M20 for racing?

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 04:49:34 PM »
My L78 came with M20 (and 410) guy raced the car, was it common to order M20 for racing?

What year?  If you are talking 1969, I believe to get an M20 with a 4.10 rear it would have had to have been ordered that way.  Not common in general.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 12:01:34 AM »
For 1969 through the end of September the M22 application totaled: 2044 units, there were 837 M22's installed in L78's and 1207 installed in Z28's. I'm sure using extrapolation we can estimate the ratio of the remaining: 73 units.

Paul Winvoices

cook_dw

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 12:55:45 AM »
More than likely L72 & ZL1 unless for some reason you were including them in with L78 which wouldnt make sense..

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 02:31:00 PM »
For 1969 through the end of September the M22 application totaled: 2044 units, there were 837 M22's installed in L78's and 1207 installed in Z28's. I'm sure using extrapolation we can estimate the ratio of the remaining: 73 units.

Paul Winvoices
Thanks ,how did you get the numbers

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »
Should probably be more than 73 of the cars with 427 engines that had M22s.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 07:13:11 PM »
The 73 is the difference between the end of Sept numbers for M22 of 2,044 compared with the final M22 totals of 2117 provided on the CRG option PDF list.

Paul

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 07:59:11 PM »
The 2117 number is not just a CRG number, it is posted in multiple sources and it had to come from Chevrolet or GM records at some point.

So any breakdown of the M20, M21, M22 numbers for the 427 cars?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
There are reasons to believe the 837 M22 L78 number includes COPOs. Internally, COPO build orders mention L78; it is listed on Canadian COPO documentation.  COPOs 9560 & 9561 were not RPO and didn’t exist for statistical purposes. When the YTD totals were rolled up all COPO data was likely assigned to L78. When I apply what is known about production totals [and factoring October] it looks like this:

L78 – 690
COPO – 178
Total SHP BB - 867
Z/28 – 1,250
Total M22 – 2,117

The trans production number that has been long thought to be FUBAR is the M21 total of 26,501. There is no way to get anywhere near that number; the total production for all cars that could have had an M21 is 28,159. Subtracting 2,117 M22s leaves 26,042. An M20 is not uncommon in a Z/28; a reasonable estimate is 21%. It was also available for all big blocks. While rare in COPOs there have been a few documented. Also, there were 3,692 automatic big blocks built, most probably L34 & L35. I have seen a number of documented M40 L78s. 30 of Yenkos L72 Camaros were automatic as were 22 ZL1s. Of the 1,015 Camaro L72 engines built 193 [19%] were MO coded for an automatic. For these purposes I estimated total COPO production at 950. When all this is factored M21 production comes in at 18,849.
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fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 12:53:35 AM »
Agreed makes no sense, there is no way that many M21's were produced. End of Sept shows a little over 15,000 with breakdowns of: Z28, L34 and L78 as you indicated. Total 4-spd production for M20, M21 and M22 through end of sept was slightly over 50K.

Paul

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 02:20:52 AM »
Problem with M20 is it includes Saginaw 4-speeds. I have paperwork from a local dealer; 6 of the 98 Camaros were non-HP Saginaw M20 4-speeds. Can't accurately estimate the M20 Muncie/Saginaw split because there are no figures for the 21,273 SS350s and LM1s. Several SS350s in the paper work list no trans [std HD 3-speed] some 4-speed, some TH350. Powerglide was also an option. The earliest power team chart shows the LM1 receiving the Saginaw [2.54 1st] but another shows Muncie [2.52 1st]. The LM1 was odd in that there was no standard trans; an optional trans had to be ordered. The MC1 HD 3-speed was only optional on the LM1, 3,079 produced leaving 7,327 that could have had any of 3 other transmissions.

No meaningful way to swag all that.
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hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 01:23:59 PM »
So 4889 units for RPO L78 includes COPO?

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 03:17:09 PM »
Good question.

Like most options, ECLs differ based on other equipment. There are no RPO ECLs specific to COPO 9560 & 9561. When they did the query looking for M22 ECLs specific to BB it picked up all of them including COPOs. When the report was summarized it was assumed all 867 were for L78s.

But when they queried for L78 ECLs could it have picked up COPOs? As I stated L78 is always listed on Canadian COPO docs. There is one out there at this time:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/688190/re-yellow-rs-copo#Post688190

As usual L78 is listed along with all the other equipment. But there are no ECLs shown. Maybe 20 years ago when you requested build info on a Canadian delivered car they just copied the page your VIN was on along with 18-20 others. I have a few of these and looked up the COPOs. All of the COPOs I can read also list L78AA5 along with 9560 or 9561.

If they did the ECL query using the same info from the shipping reports I have to say there is a possibility the 4,889 L78 build total included COPOs.
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