Author Topic: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities  (Read 12210 times)

hihorse

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1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« on: January 10, 2017, 10:29:56 PM »
Do we have an M22 QTY estimate on each  of the solid lifter engines

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 04:09:15 AM »
Not really.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 01:44:53 PM »
Figured would have an est. like the paint colours. My L78 came with M20 (and 410) guy raced the car, was it common to order M20 for racing?

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 04:49:34 PM »
My L78 came with M20 (and 410) guy raced the car, was it common to order M20 for racing?

What year?  If you are talking 1969, I believe to get an M20 with a 4.10 rear it would have had to have been ordered that way.  Not common in general.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 12:01:34 AM »
For 1969 through the end of September the M22 application totaled: 2044 units, there were 837 M22's installed in L78's and 1207 installed in Z28's. I'm sure using extrapolation we can estimate the ratio of the remaining: 73 units.

Paul Winvoices

cook_dw

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 12:55:45 AM »
More than likely L72 & ZL1 unless for some reason you were including them in with L78 which wouldnt make sense..

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 02:31:00 PM »
For 1969 through the end of September the M22 application totaled: 2044 units, there were 837 M22's installed in L78's and 1207 installed in Z28's. I'm sure using extrapolation we can estimate the ratio of the remaining: 73 units.

Paul Winvoices
Thanks ,how did you get the numbers

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »
Should probably be more than 73 of the cars with 427 engines that had M22s.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 07:13:11 PM »
The 73 is the difference between the end of Sept numbers for M22 of 2,044 compared with the final M22 totals of 2117 provided on the CRG option PDF list.

Paul

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 07:59:11 PM »
The 2117 number is not just a CRG number, it is posted in multiple sources and it had to come from Chevrolet or GM records at some point.

So any breakdown of the M20, M21, M22 numbers for the 427 cars?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
There are reasons to believe the 837 M22 L78 number includes COPOs. Internally, COPO build orders mention L78; it is listed on Canadian COPO documentation.  COPOs 9560 & 9561 were not RPO and didn’t exist for statistical purposes. When the YTD totals were rolled up all COPO data was likely assigned to L78. When I apply what is known about production totals [and factoring October] it looks like this:

L78 – 690
COPO – 178
Total SHP BB - 867
Z/28 – 1,250
Total M22 – 2,117

The trans production number that has been long thought to be FUBAR is the M21 total of 26,501. There is no way to get anywhere near that number; the total production for all cars that could have had an M21 is 28,159. Subtracting 2,117 M22s leaves 26,042. An M20 is not uncommon in a Z/28; a reasonable estimate is 21%. It was also available for all big blocks. While rare in COPOs there have been a few documented. Also, there were 3,692 automatic big blocks built, most probably L34 & L35. I have seen a number of documented M40 L78s. 30 of Yenkos L72 Camaros were automatic as were 22 ZL1s. Of the 1,015 Camaro L72 engines built 193 [19%] were MO coded for an automatic. For these purposes I estimated total COPO production at 950. When all this is factored M21 production comes in at 18,849.
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fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 12:53:35 AM »
Agreed makes no sense, there is no way that many M21's were produced. End of Sept shows a little over 15,000 with breakdowns of: Z28, L34 and L78 as you indicated. Total 4-spd production for M20, M21 and M22 through end of sept was slightly over 50K.

Paul

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 02:20:52 AM »
Problem with M20 is it includes Saginaw 4-speeds. I have paperwork from a local dealer; 6 of the 98 Camaros were non-HP Saginaw M20 4-speeds. Can't accurately estimate the M20 Muncie/Saginaw split because there are no figures for the 21,273 SS350s and LM1s. Several SS350s in the paper work list no trans [std HD 3-speed] some 4-speed, some TH350. Powerglide was also an option. The earliest power team chart shows the LM1 receiving the Saginaw [2.54 1st] but another shows Muncie [2.52 1st]. The LM1 was odd in that there was no standard trans; an optional trans had to be ordered. The MC1 HD 3-speed was only optional on the LM1, 3,079 produced leaving 7,327 that could have had any of 3 other transmissions.

No meaningful way to swag all that.
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hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 01:23:59 PM »
So 4889 units for RPO L78 includes COPO?

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 03:17:09 PM »
Good question.

Like most options, ECLs differ based on other equipment. There are no RPO ECLs specific to COPO 9560 & 9561. When they did the query looking for M22 ECLs specific to BB it picked up all of them including COPOs. When the report was summarized it was assumed all 867 were for L78s.

But when they queried for L78 ECLs could it have picked up COPOs? As I stated L78 is always listed on Canadian COPO docs. There is one out there at this time:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/688190/re-yellow-rs-copo#Post688190

As usual L78 is listed along with all the other equipment. But there are no ECLs shown. Maybe 20 years ago when you requested build info on a Canadian delivered car they just copied the page your VIN was on along with 18-20 others. I have a few of these and looked up the COPOs. All of the COPOs I can read also list L78AA5 along with 9560 or 9561.

If they did the ECL query using the same info from the shipping reports I have to say there is a possibility the 4,889 L78 build total included COPOs.
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VINCE Z28

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2017, 05:12:44 PM »
11 of the 69 ZL1's  came with the M22 Trans. Super car Registry.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 05:40:45 PM by VINCE Z28 »
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william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2017, 06:47:15 PM »
Possibly.

A few of the ZL1s the list shows as having an M22 do not have paperwork and were restored starting with nothing more than a body. There are 7 for sure.
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hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 07:41:46 PM »
how many 1969 L78 with M20 trans?

Kelley W King

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 08:00:10 PM »
Since you guys use some numbers I have not heard, does anyone know how many 69 L78 automatic,s were made.
I have always heard 10% of the 4889 number as a guess. I remember back in the 69 L78 auto Novas seemed to be on a lot of car lots.
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fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 11:03:07 PM »
Through end of Sept: 530 L78's with M20 trans.

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 11:06:39 PM »
Through the end of Sept: 816 L78's with Turbo 400's.

68camaroz28

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2017, 02:34:30 AM »
Since you guys use some numbers I have not heard, does anyone know how many 69 L78 automatic,s were made.
I have always heard 10% of the 4889 number as a guess. I remember back in the 69 L78 auto Novas seemed to be on a lot of car lots.
We have one of those 69 L78 Turbo400 Nova's and ordered it in Feb. 69. The dealer did not have much info at the time on the automatics if memory serves me but recently read in Hemmings Muscle Machines 1,411 L78 Automatic Nova's were built in 69.
Chick
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fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 05:36:41 AM »
Total Automatics (M40) with L78 for 69 Nova is: 1,009.

Paul

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2017, 01:06:56 PM »
If Transmission usuage is known would be nice to see a official pie diagram or something under  the box labelled ' transmission' in the opening page

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2017, 07:08:13 PM »
Through end of Sept: 530 L78's with M20 trans.
would you know how many L78's came with 410's?

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2017, 04:36:05 PM »
If you know what ECL code was used with the L78/4.10 combination, I can give you a number.

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2017, 01:51:56 AM »
If you are referring to Camaro, there are at least 9 ECLs for a 4.10 axle ratio, none specific to the L78. Later COPOs spec'd a 4.10 axle on docs and have the same ECLs.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 04:36:17 PM by william »
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hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2017, 04:26:03 PM »
yes for 1969 Camaro, where is this info posted on ECL's?

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2017, 05:11:49 PM »
yes for 1969 Camaro, where is this info posted on ECL's?

It isn't and may never be. Kurt and I have been working on this for many years and have figured out some of it. ECLs are highly sensitive to option content and were likely used to generate engineering bills of material, pricing, and labor content for production scheduling. Also, they changed over the model year. The engineering content for the 12 COPO 9737 ECLs has been known for decades. From a engineering bom standpoint, several of them are identical. Something else must be involved.

There's a lot to learn. D55 has at least 19 ECLs, 30 for Z22. That we know what some of them are makes it easy to spot reproduction paperwork when it is presented as original. There is a Z/28 currently on ebay with a reproduction window sticker advertised as being original.

Kurt is also working on Broadcast Copies.

We need original paperwork to keep working on this. If you have an original window sticker or broadcast copy please share it with us. They are for our reference only; we don't circulate them. Also, if you have acquired NCRS shipping info for your car, the VIN and production date is useful for production calendar research.

Feel free to post or pm data to us.
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fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2017, 03:44:28 AM »
I don't think ECL codes should ever be posted. It would also be close to impossible to decode them without almost a full list of all models and options for a full production year. ECL codes vary based on families of options and other factors and as stated do change at times through the calendar year.
Just a few interesting facts to further exemplify the laborious task of decoding ECL's. IN 1969 C60 air conditioning contains more than 50 ECL codes, a simple item like N33 contains 15 different codes, N34 wood wheel more than 25 codes and on and on.

Paul

hihorse

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2017, 12:04:19 AM »
Why do you think ECL codes should ever be posted?

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2017, 01:37:41 AM »
Because 99.99% of people would never need them.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

KurtS

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2017, 04:55:44 AM »
And they would just help fake documents.
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jdv69z

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2017, 02:24:34 PM »
Just because I'm curious, what you are saying is that you have a list of all the ECL codes, but you only know what some of them mean or how they apply? That is, only some of them have been decoded? And I get the idea of them as a useful tool against fake paper work. Kind of like trim tags were at one point.
Jimmy V.

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2017, 03:55:02 PM »
They have another use: production totals.

Chevrolet apparently summarized each of them for a report but did it at the end of September '69. Maybe IT was not aware production was to continue into November. The report only lists them when ordered as a distinct option. Some options were standard equipment with others. CE1 Headlight Washer was a "rare" option; only 116 ordered. But CE1 was included with Z22 Rally-Sport; 37,773 built. M11 floor shift control was included with D55.

Another potential problem is how the query was run. In an earlier post here I mentioned Canadian Shipping Records. They list all kinds of things not seen on shipper copies, window stickers or invoices. For example, data on cars ordered with J52 Power Front Disc brakes also lists J50 Power Brakes. Does that mean the J50 total of 82,890 includes the 34,932 J52 total? Don't know.

Canadian docs for COPOs lists L78 in addition to 9560 & 9561. It is possible the long-standing L78 production total of 4,889 includes both COPOs.

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bcmiller

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2017, 06:35:16 PM »
Great questions William! I wish we had ALL of the answers.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

fsc66

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2017, 02:46:25 PM »
Options included with other packages: Just using logic I do not think the options that are included within other packages are being considered in the totals. I believe these options show totals only as stand alone options. The reason I feel this way is that each individual ECL code has it's own total, then those are summed up to give us the total for that particular option. When these same options I.e. C14 are included within other packages, they don't have an assigned ECL code, therefore I do not think they are included. Perhaps somewhere there is a total for production of an option that would include both stand alone and when it was part of another package.
Maybe we can test some of these and prove this out one way or another based on different reports showing totals??

Paul

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2017, 04:04:39 PM »
They are definitely not included; Chevy likely built 37,889 Camaros with headlight washers. CE1 does not appear anywhere on docs for RS. Same with V32-12,369 as an option but included on 20,302 Z/28s. The ZL2 hood was included with COPOs 9560 & 9561 and is probably not included in the 10,026 option total.

Another screwy thing Chevy did was use M40MA for both TH350 & TH400 applications. So much for sorting on that one.

Without a lot more paperwork, don't see much progress here.
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HOT3O2

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2017, 10:49:06 PM »
Would they have used different ECL codes at the Van Nuys plant vs the Norwood plant?
Rick
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william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2017, 11:45:00 PM »
I have a lot of 1969 ordering information and there is no mention of 'CA only' or 'n/a CA' as there was in later years. At this time I haven't seen any powertrain ECLs in CA docs not also seen at Norwood. There is a Z22 ECL only seen on a Van Nuys doc but that doesn't mean it wasn't possible at Norwood.

By the late '70s some cars intended for operation in CA could only have certain engines, transmissions and axle ratios. I believe for 1980 Corvettes sold there were all 305 automatics. The dark days for sure.

Great question! 
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mikea

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2018, 12:20:55 PM »
"Does that mean the J50 total of 82,890 includes the 34,932 J52 total"

I see the J52 total as 67,231 on the option sheet. William?

Thanks.

william

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2018, 04:31:08 PM »
The option production totals came from plant build records. The record for each car listed, by internal code, how the car was configured in production. It is not the same as order configuration.

The only known surviving '60s build records are for cars shipped to Canada. A long time ago, GM Canada would send a copy of the page your car was on in addition to the letter. They stopped the practice many years ago, possibly because key codes were displayed. In the two records shown, the 1st car was built only with J50 Power Brakes. The next car, a Camaro SS, lists J50 and J52 even though it was included with Camaro SS equipment [Z27AA5].

When all this was tallied at the end of production, 82,890 cars were built with J50, 67,231 were built with both. The 67,231 total includes 34,932 Camaro SS.

Sure would be nice to have the complete, original report.
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firstgenaddict

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Re: 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2018, 05:11:52 PM »
ECL's are an entertaining field... I have been researching them in relation to the ZL2, U17, G84 performance ratios and N34 steering wheels... I have also studied them regarding the u69 and it's ecls in relation to other interior appointments.
James
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