Ignition Coil Bracket Finish

[Buzz1967]

Hello Friends!

Can someone tell me what the correct finish for a '67 ignition coil bracket is? Is it bare metal or is it grey oxide? And while we're on the subject - who does show quality grey oxide plating? I'm ready to send my parts off to get them refinished and so I'm wondering if the coil bracket needs to be sent off too.

As always, Thanks a bunch!
Buzz

[68camaroz28]

Originals I've observed  have a galvanized appearance. A dull clear zinc can grit u somewhat close.

[Mike S]

 Both my '67's have the typical crystalline galvanized look. For gray phosphate finishing I would use some place local or even buy the zinc liquid and do it yourself because it is very easy to do. And it can come in handy when you discover a bolt or two that you 'forgot' to send out.

Mike

[Buzz1967]

I just realized I had never consulted the component finish charts I have from Jerry M. and the Camaro Nats. Both say the coil bracket are finished in silver cadmium (which I believe mine already is.) Well. . . . egg on my face.

Although, to save this thread I still need a recommendation on a plater to get my parts grey phosphate plated. I just don't think I want to attempt to do it myself. I plan to do the hood latch and hood hinges which are sizeable pieces.

[68camaroz28]

I just realized I had never consulted the component finish charts I have from Jerry M. and the Camaro Nats. Both say the coil bracket are finished in silver cadmium (which I believe mine already is.) Well. . . . egg on my face.

Although, to save this thread I still need a recommendation on a plater to get my parts grey phosphate plated. I just don't think I want to attempt to do it myself. I plan to do the hood latch and hood hinges which are sizeable pieces.

Buzz, do a search for palmetto phosphate and read some of the threads explaining how easy it is! And confused since you plan on doing large parts which needs both large container and solution. If you have a glass bead cabinet and can boil water you can do those small parts with ease.

[Buzz1967]

[Buzz, do a search for palmetto phosphate and read some of the threads explaining how easy it is! And confused since you plan on doing large parts which needs both large container and solution. If you have a glass bead cabinet and can boil water you can do those small parts with ease.

I do have a cheap glass bead cabinet. Bought it at Harbor Freight. I'm just not sure I want to do the small parts ( throttle linkage, kick-down switch bracket and crank pulley) myself when I'll have to send out the large parts anyway (hood hinges and hood release) due to their size. I don't think even one of those big 30qt. turkey fryer pots would completely submerge the hood release. I know the company known as brakeboosters.com does grey phosphate coating. I just wish someone would tell me that they had work done by them with good results.

[70z28lt1]

If you are in the Dayton Ohio area bring them by and I can do the hinges and latch assembly.  I have 10 gallons of the Palmetto stuff mixed up.
Only local stuff.  I don't want to deal with shipping etc.  Glass bead it ahead of time.  I use a SS single bowl sink on the barbeque grill.  It works great!

[Mike S]

 Oh-oh.....the BBQ grill method is now known!   
 I began to use that after my wife nagged me enough about the smell inside when using the stove.
Nice thing about the grill is more burners = a wider area so you can use larger SS tubs for items like latches and transmission rods.

Mike

[70z28lt1]

Sorry, didn't know it was a guarded secret.

You can also cook the Thanksgiving turkey in there (not at the same time)!

[BillOhio]

Sink on the grille is great!

[69Z28-RS]

If you are in the Dayton Ohio area bring them by and I can do the hinges and latch assembly.  I have 10 gallons of the Palmetto stuff mixed up.
Only local stuff.  I don't want to deal with shipping etc.  Glass bead it ahead of time.  I use a SS single bowl sink on the barbeque grill.  It works great!

Great idea, but how did you seal up the drain hole???   

[68camaroz28]

[Buzz, do a search for palmetto phosphate and read some of the threads explaining how easy it is! And confused since you plan on doing large parts which needs both large container and solution. If you have a glass bead cabinet and can boil water you can do those small parts with ease.

I do have a cheap glass bead cabinet. Bought it at Harbor Freight. I'm just not sure I want to do the small parts ( throttle linkage, kick-down switch bracket and crank pulley) myself when I'll have to send out the large parts anyway (hood hinges and hood release) due to their size. I don't think even one of those big 30qt. turkey fryer pots would completely submerge the hood release. I know the company known as brakeboosters.com does grey phosphate coating. I just wish someone would tell me that they had work done by them with good results.

Buzz, what I did was send out the hood hinges (not springs) to Brakeboosters.com (Steve), but did all the small stuff myself. Cannot tell you how many times I've gotten that out (solution) to do something missed. Another issue involves the color as there is a dark phoshphate and a lighter version more of a dark gray and I used both for different parts for our restoration.
Never used the grille but read about that from Mike or someone several years ago. What I use is a simple cheap two burner electric hot plate that will not boil the liquid but keeps it in the 180 to 200 range which works well. And by the way Buzz, my glass bead cabinet came from Harbor Freight also. Cheap and works fine but spend some time sealing that rascal up and make sure you wear protective equipment especially for them lungs.

[Mike S]

Chick,

  Were your hood springs still phosphate finished even though you removed them from the hinges?

Mike

[69Z28-RS]

I think the springs are 'painted', not phosphated...

[Mike S]

Hi Gary,
  I've studied my LOS survivor and can not find any traces of black though I will admit the springs have a light oxidation. When I restored my convertible in the 80's I had the hinge/spring assembly phosphate based on my observations then. Well, it seemed to be correct back then.
I'm actually at the point to reinstall the hood and if the springs are indeed black, I'll remove them to paint.
   ...update...I just found this while replying......see post #5 which I interpret as Chick not painting the hood springs. Phosphate then? hmmmm...

http://www.camaros.net/forums/34-restoration-corner/206347-correct-color-69z.html

Mike

[Edgemontvillage]

I think the springs are 'painted', not phosphated...

Gary, the hood hinge springs should be manganese (dark) phosphated.

[69Z28-RS]

I think the springs are 'painted', not phosphated...

Gary, the hood hinge springs should be manganese (dark) phosphated.

I must have confused my years, Lloyd...  in the fifties, the springs were painted black; the hinges were zinc...    (I shouldn't rely on my memory anymore...    )

[Mike S]

Lloyd,

   You are saying manganese with the understanding of the difference between zinc (phosphate) vs. manganese solutions, correct? If so then I now have a use for the unopened bottles of manganese parkerizing solution!

Thanks,
Mike

[Dave O.]

Hi, some of the posts refer to component finish charts. Where do I find these? I am doing a partial restoration of my 1968 Z28 and something like that would be nice!

[Mike S]

You can find refinish info here (see reply #5)
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11167.msg87227#msg87227

  Mike

[Dave O.]

Thanks, Mike! Would this be also correct for a "68"?

[Mike S]

 I believe it is valid up to '69.

Mike

[69Z28-RS]

I should have asked Lloyd where his information re 'phosphated/manganesed' hood springs came from?  I've been doing a little digging to clarify my own memory and I find no reference that specifies to phosphate or manganese any springs.  Not even the list from McNeish's book as provided in the reference states that, but it does specify for the hood latch spring that it be black painted.   I did find several references that heating, acid dipping, or phosphating a spring can cause hydrogen embrittlement, and in extreme cases totally remove the 'spring' from the spring...

Does anyone have any additional reference on this subject (in particular, hood spring coating or treatment?)...

[Mike S]

 This link does show springs dark. Black paint or manganese? If the spring was painted I would think it would not fully cover the surface area between the coils when not installed and I'm not sure if the factory would bother to place them in a jig to separate the coils.
http://www.camaros.org/underhood.shtml

Mike

[Buzz1967]

If you are in the Dayton Ohio area bring them by and I can do the hinges and latch assembly.  I have 10 gallons of the Palmetto stuff mixed up.
Only local stuff.  I don't want to deal with shipping etc.  Glass bead it ahead of time.  I use a SS single bowl sink on the barbeque grill.  It works great!

Thanks for the most generous offer, but Ohio is too far to travel! But I would have brought the beverages and the brats!

[Buzz1967]

More to follow, but speaking of wives - mine just told me we have somewhere to go, so I have my marching orders so I'll be posting more thanks and replies later!

[68camaroz28]

I think the springs are 'painted', not phosphated...

Gary, the hood hinge springs should be manganese (dark) phosphated.

Agree somewhat Lloyd and you may be 100% correct but from my perspective they were not but service replacements were. Every service replacement reviewed including a set I had from 1979 was a dark manganese, almost a light black but survivors including our 69 Nova are just a dark gray phosphate. But again you many be correct friend. Great talking to you and reviewing items at MCACN Lloyd.
Opps, me bad as we are talking about springs. My original springs were not dark manganese.

[68camaroz28]

Chick,

  Were your hood springs still phosphate finished even though you removed them from the hinges?

Mike

Mike, no they were not! I took them off and used evaporust to lightly remove some surface rust, protected with rust preventative and placed back on the hinges. I think it also looks much better as they should have two different looking finishes instead of being both phosphate with the same stuff.

[68camaroz28]

These were my spings Mike after a little tender loving care and just before replacing on hinges. Never any trace of paint and they look now as they did before minus a little surface rust.

[Mike S]

Chick,

  Your springs are raw steel then?

Mike

[68camaroz28]

Chick,

  Your springs are raw steel then?

Mike

They would seem that way but had very little rust other than some surface rust here and there and would think totally raw steel would have rusted up a lot.

[Mike S]

 That's why I wonder if they were indeed phosphate and not oiled over their lifetime to cause surface oxidation.

Mike

[68camaroz28]

That's why I wonder if they were indeed phosphate and not oiled over their lifetime to cause surface oxidation.

Mike

Mike, to obtain a better view of color contrast here is a view of when I installed one spring back in the hinge. It's a light gray and contrast well against the hinge.

[69Z28-RS]

My observation from nearly 50 yrs 'playing' with car parts..   I'm not sure why, but 'spring steel' is not as prone to rust as regular steel or iron parts...

[Buzz1967]

I'm sure glad I started this thread. I'm learning a LOT about metal and phosphate.

Mike, would it be alright to send you a P/M?

[Mike S]

 Hi Buzz,

    Sure, feel free to do so.

Mike

[70z28lt1]

If you are in the Dayton Ohio area bring them by and I can do the hinges and latch assembly.  I have 10 gallons of the Palmetto stuff mixed up.
Only local stuff.  I don't want to deal with shipping etc.  Glass bead it ahead of time.  I use a SS single bowl sink on the barbeque grill.  It works great!

Great idea, but how did you seal up the drain hole??? 

I traced out a pattern from the hole on a piece of stainless steel sheet metal, cut it out, ran a bead of gasket rtv and then pop riveted it in place. This was my second try. First sink was a paper thin cheapie that I tried TIG welding and blew so many holes in it I threw it away. Got them both on Craigslist for 15 and 25 dollars. You need this big to do the hood latch and hinges on a '70.

[70z28lt1]

There has been much discussion about the color of the hinge springs being darker than the hinges themselves. Not sure there is a definitive conclusion.
I am going to try the manganese phosphate and see if it is too dark.
There is a question of hydrogen embrittlement, I think it can be addressed here:
http://www.smfi.net/portfolio/hydrogen-embrittlement-relief/
I made a set of "spring spreaders" which are special bolts placed inside the springs and then "unscrewed" to expand the springs. Then the glass beading and plating can get in between the coils.

[69Z28-RS]

If you are in the Dayton Ohio area bring them by and I can do the hinges and latch assembly.  I have 10 gallons of the Palmetto stuff mixed up.
Only local stuff.  I don't want to deal with shipping etc.  Glass bead it ahead of time.  I use a SS single bowl sink on the barbeque grill.  It works great!

Great idea, but how did you seal up the drain hole??? 

I traced out a pattern from the hole on a piece of stainless steel sheet metal, cut it out, ran a bead of gasket rtv and then pop riveted it in place. This was my second try. First sink was a paper thin cheapie that I tried TIG welding and blew so many holes in it I threw it away. Got them both on Craigslist for 15 and 25 dollars. You need this big to do the hood latch and hinges on a '70.

So the RTV seal held up to the heat (underneath) and the 200F chemical in the sink??   Interesting...  I might try that.

[70z28lt1]

Seems to be holding up well.

I've used it twice and no effects on the seal.

Permatex Ultra-Grey and 8 equally spaced pop-rivets.

[Buzz1967]

[Buzz, do a search for palmetto phosphate and read some of the threads explaining how easy it is! And confused since you plan on doing large parts which needs both large container and solution. If you have a glass bead cabinet and can boil water you can do those small parts with ease.

I've changed my mind and I just might do this on a small scale for the smaller parts. I know it's easy because a friend of mine did some parkerizing when he restored his '49 Harley. I see there's a couple phosphating videos on Youtube which could serve as a crash course. Then if I decide to go bigger, we have an old grill. All I need is a single bowl kitchen sink from Craigs list or eBay. Thanks for the sink tip guys!

[Edgemontvillage]

Lloyd,

   You are saying manganese with the understanding of the difference between zinc (phosphate) vs. manganese solutions, correct? If so then I now have a use for the unopened bottles of manganese parkerizing solution!

Thanks,
Mike

Yes Mike, I'm speaking from experience, I've used both zinc and manganese parkerizing solutions extensively.

[Buzz1967]

Lloyd,

   You are saying manganese with the understanding of the difference between zinc (phosphate) vs. manganese solutions, correct? If so then I now have a use for the unopened bottles of manganese parkerizing solution!

Thanks,
Mike

Yes Mike, I'm speaking from experience, I've used both zinc and manganese parkerizing solutions extensively.

Does the one solution color up to the grey finish associated with the hood hinges and latches, while the other solution is darker in color like the many bolts are cars are assembled with?

[68camaroz28]

Lloyd,

   You are saying manganese with the understanding of the difference between zinc (phosphate) vs. manganese solutions, correct? If so then I now have a use for the unopened bottles of manganese parkerizing solution!

Thanks,
Mike

Yes Mike, I'm speaking from experience, I've used both zinc and manganese parkerizing solutions extensively.

Does the one solution color up to the grey finish associated with the hood hinges and latches, while the other solution is darker in color like the many bolts are cars are assembled with?

Yes, exactly! Some items were the darker manganese finish and some the dark gray. I used both solutions for different product on our car but again, the hood hinges I did not do but everything else I did. Some things learned, a new batch of manganese will give a very dark finish and parts will darken more if kept in for longer periods of time. The solution can be saved and used several times but like many things it seems to weaken and the finish is not as dark compared to new. In many cases I preferred used solutions due to the manganese being too black looking when using a fresh batch, but that is simply my preference and nothing more. After removal from either solution you have to give the newly phosphate parts a good cleaning and Palmetto suggests using WD-40. That portion of the process is important that you do not end up with white spots (salts) on your hardware. I found over the past couple years what worked best was the old red Mystery Oil. Just put them in the oil, take them out, and brush with a soft brush (old toothbrush works well) and sort of dry off. As just like a paint job, the preparation is key so I normally glass bead what I'm going to manganese/phosphate immediately prior. You can purchase a cheap ceramic coated pot/s at WalMart or some old stainless pot or pan not used by a family member or at any flea market/Goodwill store, etc. Hardware does not need a large container and I found taking time with small batches at a time worked well for me. Again, a lot of information is available concerning Palmetto products if you complete searches here or on team Camaro.

[70z28lt1]

The process that I used after phosphating was a quick rinse with tap water (garden hose for larger parts) blow dry with an air hose and then a quick spraying with Boeshield for rust prevention.  Fluid Film is also recommended, but I haven't tried that.  WD-40 is often recommended but maybe that is due to it being so easily available.  I haven't found WD-40 to be a great rust preventative.

Also, wear the disposable nitrile gloves after the glass beading to keep any skin oils from the part.

[68camaroz28]

The process that I used after phosphating was a quick rinse with tap water (garden hose for larger parts) blow dry with an air hose and then a quick spraying with Boeshield for rust prevention.  Fluid Film is also recommended, but I haven't tried that.  WD-40 is often recommended but maybe that is due to it being so easily available.  I haven't found WD-40 to be a great rust preventative.

Also, wear the disposable nitrile gloves after the glass beading to keep any skin oils from the part.

I believe the WD-40 recommended by Palmetto Products to be used upon taking out of the solution bath is to neutralize and not obtain the white spotting. The mystery oil I referred to had to do with that process, not rust preventative. For that I use "rust prevention magic" and a Quanta rust prevention product. Have fun!

[Mike S]

 After a few years and with a preservative oil the gray phosphate will turn sort of like an olive drab green color.
All the parts I had phosphate back in the mid-80's and preserved with oil, today look more like that green. Also, the metal composition will also have an impact on the shade it comes out after phosphate. My bolts are a darker gray while the throttle linkage treated in the same batch as the bolts came out more like the OD green I mentioned.

Mike

[Buzz1967]

Thanks Chick, Mike, Gary and 70z28lt1! As always the discussion has been informative and educational.