Author Topic: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z  (Read 6296 times)

ko-lek-tor

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Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« on: November 09, 2016, 03:02:41 AM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-/351900595616?forcerrptr=true&hash=item51eee8f5a0:g:chwAAOSw5cNYIkAh&item=351900595616

Reference quality on how NOT to restore-No disc brake medallion on brake pedal, no clock w U17...and that was at a glance.
For that kind of money...better keep comments to myself. No disrespect if it is a member's car, but there are several egregious errors to dispell the claim.
James to strangers, Bentley to friends
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 owned since 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79(sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. 4.10 posi coupe Daytona Yellow 711 owned since 85

maroman

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2016, 03:34:45 AM »
He doesn't really say it is as built either. Doesn't say original engine or trans, just correct.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

BillOhio

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 03:05:48 PM »
In my opinion, one of the places I would not buy a car
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

1968RSZ28

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 05:33:18 PM »
VIN: 124379N590547

Already discussed here...  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=14354.msg126572#msg126572

Paul

ban617

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 05:43:57 PM »
Wasn't the bright pedal trim on the Z 23 option ?

Daytona Z

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 06:39:44 PM »
Like so may cars being offered today, Camaro Hi-Performance looks it over, issues a "Certificate" and the seller posts the first page of it like it's some sort of validation. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing the first page of these reports in the past year where the rest is omitted from the sales ad because the cars simply don't check out.

If it were me certifying cars for authenticity, no certificate would be issued until the car meets a certain criteria of originality or restoration. There'd be one for : Correct Restored, Original Restored, Modified Restored, and Original & Survivor Class. No cookie cutter cover Cert where people try to attach it to the sale thereof and attempt to make it look right when it isn't.

As far as dealers go, there isn't a single one that I'd buy a car from. Period.

Just MHO
Just an obsessive-compulsive first gen car guy...

did I mention I like three pedals in a car?

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 07:29:42 PM »
Depends on how you look at it.  In a sense, yes the certificate is validation that we are at least looking at a real Z28.   I agree we would all want to see all the pages if we wanted to buy it, but for the purposes of the initial ad I think the first page of the certificate gets the point across.   That point being that we are at minimum looking at a real Z28 and that obstacle can be checked off the list.  If Jerry certified it you can at least be comfortable that the tag, and vin are correct and belong on the car.   That alone is a huge plus considering there are about 50,000 69 Z28's floating around now, lol.

As far as the rest of the car, for the money he is asking, the rest of the report becomes more critical.  I'm sure any interested party will be able to view the whole report and make their own mind.  Just because we can't see it all in the add doesn't necessarily mean deception.  Someone interested simply needs to look at the car closely.

Even with all the restoration mistakes, the one plus that I can take away from it, at least we are looking at an X77 that someone didn't add the exterior trim...

hgger69

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2016, 09:28:39 PM »
Even with all the restoration mistakes, the one plus that I can take away from it, at least we are looking at an X77 that someone didn't add the exterior trim...
I agree with you here...but aren't the front and rear lights trim added? ;)
Regards,
Hakan from Sweden
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1 tribute, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built
www.hakansmotorsida.com

BULLITT65

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2016, 09:41:17 PM »
Yes Hakan, you are correct. The headlight trim and taillights are X33 pieces. Maybe they ran into he same problem as you and could not find the standard pieces. Or  more likely they did not realize they are incorrect when it was restored.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 12:19:13 AM »
I don't know about the front lights but the rear lights are only sold new this way.  Can't buy the lights without the trim.  Guess you could try removing it but not sure how that might turn out.

It's the other trim I'm glad to see hasn't been added, because once that's done you have paint work on your hands to correct it.  Just nice to see one still without it for a change.

z28z11

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 03:45:47 AM »
I don't know about the front lights but the rear lights are only sold new this way.  Can't buy the lights without the trim.  Guess you could try removing it but not sure how that might turn out.

Trim pieces are glued on the tail lights, glue sometimes gives up on it's own. Used to be able to buy standard lenses, probably  discoed years ago. I bought a couple as backups for my X77 years back, 80's.
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

KurtS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 03:48:07 AM »
Why even issue a certificate? The appraisal page is all that matters.

Ugh on the repro door panels that they never even put the Camaro emblems on.
Kurt S
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X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 01:25:46 PM »
I don't know about the front lights but the rear lights are only sold new this way.  Can't buy the lights without the trim.  Guess you could try removing it but not sure how that might turn out.

Trim pieces are glued on the tail lights, glue sometimes gives up on it's own. Used to be able to buy standard lenses, probably  discoed years ago. I bought a couple as backups for my X77 years back, 80's.

Yes the glue can give up on it's own.  That happened to my tail lights but they were the original 46 year old lights sitting in a desert climate.   I'm not sure how easy it would be to pull off trim on a brand new set.  Never tried it.  I'm sure if careful it could be done.

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 01:30:21 PM »
Why even issue a certificate? The appraisal page is all that matters.

Ugh on the repro door panels that they never even put the Camaro emblems on.

   What do you mean why issue a Certificate?   Does it not at a minimum document the car as a real Z28?    That part seems kind of important.
   

69Z28-RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2016, 02:22:49 PM »
I agree with Kurt re the 'certificate'.... based on the ones I've seen. 
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
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X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2016, 04:19:10 PM »
The front page of the certificate is pictured in the ad.  Has the cars serial number, and RPO Z28 listed with Jerry's signature.

Yes the other stuff like parts and pieces would be important to a potential buyer, but in a for sale ad I think the seller is simply making the point we are looking at a real Z.  Does the first page not accomplish that?    I would think Jerry may then word the front page differently before putting his name on it.

68 Ragtop

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 05:45:49 PM »
Why even issue a certificate? The appraisal page is all that matters.

Ugh on the repro door panels that they never even put the Camaro emblems on.

   What do you mean why issue a Certificate?   Does it not at a minimum document the car as a real Z28?    That part seems kind of important.
   

No it doesn't.

The parchment paper first page just means you paid to have your car inspected. It could be any car. A 6 cylinder, plain jane, RS/SS, Z/28, base 327, whatever. It doesn't even have to be a Camaro. It's a privately owned business, not a public service.

The appraisal pages are the meat of the report. They provide a professional opinion of the cars condition, what options the car has and if they may be original to the car, along with a (usually generous) market appraisal.

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 07:42:59 PM »
Can you explain why it says RPO Z28 along with the serial number on the front page with Jerry's signature??    I don't believe Jerry would print that on the front page and hand it over to someone without him at least first verifying it's a real Z.   

Printing that on the front page, and then going on about how the car is a complete fake with doctored tags and re-stamped parts on the rest of the paperwork would make absolutely no sense at all.  Then the front page may as well read "base model Camaro" or whatever.

This is probably a question for Jerry himself but I'm willing to bet, and feel pretty comfortable giving Jerry the benefit of the doubt here, that with at least that first page we see, that Jerry at least took the time to verify the data plate and vin numbers before going any further on the car so he can supply the correct heading on the front page.  Otherwise it wouldn't be what I consider thorough and accurate documentation of a car.  Hence the meaning of my first comment that with this paper supplied in the pics we at least know it's a real Z28.  The other stuff on the rest of the papers is just icing on the cake, or not, and I'm sure is viewable by anyone interested in buying the car.

jdv69z

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2016, 08:01:18 PM »
I don't think there's any question that in Jerry's opinion, this is a Z/28; It states as much on the page shown.
Jimmy V.

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 08:18:03 PM »
I don't think there's any question that in Jerry's opinion, this is a Z/28; It states as much on the page shown.

   Exactly what I'm trying to convey Jimmy.  So the first page has some merit.

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2016, 08:27:47 PM »
Just taking a minute to chime in here.  All inspections are done on-site and yes, I do generate a four to five page report on every car that I inspect in person.  Many dealers are guilty of using just the cert to sell a car.  I don't like it and will figure out a way to change the current way I write the cert (adding maybe report enclosed?).  I have a client who bought a real '68 Z28 with my cert but without the full report because the seller didn't want him to know that the drive train was re-stamped.

Most have wised up though as I get many, many calls where people will ask about the full report.  All cars that I do are logged into my data base.

Reports take anywhere from 3-5 hours to generate.  Been working on one today, an L78 70 Camaro with re-stamped DT.  More work for me in reports like this as I have to provide data analysis. 

Jerry     

68camaroz28

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2016, 10:06:27 PM »
You could place on the first page "Page 1 of 5", and somewhere other than bottom of page.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

KurtS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2016, 03:54:13 AM »
My point was why have a certificate at all. It can be misleading at best.
The report is what you really want to see - it tells what's original, condition, etc.
Kurt S
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JKZ27

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2016, 11:05:02 AM »
I like the certificate. For a guy like me its a neat piece to frame and hang in the garage with the car. Perhaps a simple grade next to the date could help. Such as, A thru F, or 1 thru 10.
Or, the certificate could contain, or be printed on, a photo.
John
69 RS/SS Cortez Silver, L48 MC1
68 RS Ash/Ivy Gold 327EFI M20

68camaroz28

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 12:33:21 PM »
I understand both Kurt and John's post. Our 69Z's previous owner had Jerry certify the car in 2003. At that point in time the report was on one page and there was no certificate per se. That one page report from 2003 is crammed with info but not as professional looking as the multiple page reports and certificate received today.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

X33RS

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Re: Highly Documented Resto, Reference Quality-My youknowhat 69 Z
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 01:13:18 PM »
Well Kurt, a lot of reasons come to mind as to why it's nice to have a certificate, but the first one that pops in my head is that certificate is stating what you're looking at is a real Z.  You have to admit there are a ton of fakes, and they are getting better at making these data plates, cutting out vins and replacing, or rebody etc...   So it's nice to have someone in the field knowledgeable enough to determine what you are seeing is a genuine born Z28.  So I see it as important at the very least to provide that piece of paper showing all potential buyers that the car in question isn't a fake.  I don't see the certificate as being misleading at all.  Jerry states right on the front page the RPO with his signature.  Are we questioning his judgement on the cars status?   To me that first page is just as important as what follows on the other pages.  Besides that, like John says, it's a nice piece to frame and hang on the wall or display at a show.

Moving on to the other pages is where some of the interesting stuff is, so yes I agree in that respect. Some of us are number crunchers, and hardcore collectors worry about this part,  but what may or may not be there is not always a deal breaker for the average buyer.  That just depends on the individual.     I personally think it's great that these pages show what may or may not be original to the car, and I like to see numbers matching stuff like most here, but the most important part to me is that we are at a minimum looking at a real Z with it's born with data plate and vins.  The first page (certificate) shows that much.  In a nutshell, the entire packet, including the certificate is all very important.  They go hand in hand with each other documenting the car, and looks more professional in the process.