Author Topic: Real or Fake Z28  (Read 6138 times)

Pacecar

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Real or Fake Z28
« on: September 17, 2016, 10:49:34 PM »
Friend is interested in this 1969 Z28. - Black Rally Sport JL8. Always suspicious of black Z28's and being an RS more than doubly so.

Thanks for the help. Vin does line up with build date.

bcmiller

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 10:55:17 PM »
Tell us more. Original drivetrain?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Pacecar

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 11:04:12 PM »
Don't know. Claim is that it is a JL8 sold at Mecum a couple years ago

jack92584

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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented

bcmiller

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 02:44:26 AM »
Seems to have sold for $115,000 at Mecum in Dallas September of 2013.

Cross ram and headers not available from the factory in 1969.

I don't know anything specific about that car.  What is the VIN?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

jdv69z

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2016, 12:40:04 PM »
Was JL-8 still available Sep 69?
Jimmy V.

BillOhio

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2016, 12:53:31 PM »
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

Pacecar

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 01:59:21 PM »
Thanks - forgot to check Assembly Manual to see when option was discontinued. How about the trim tag ?

bcmiller

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2016, 04:46:11 PM »
My recommendation, if you or your friend are interested in the car, would be to look at it closely in person. Then have Jerry M. or someone else do a paid inspection on it. If the price is still around $115k, I think you could get 2 very nice cars for that kind of money.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

z28z11

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2016, 06:57:59 PM »
My recommendation, if you or your friend are interested in the car, would be to look at it closely in person. Then have Jerry M. or someone else do a paid inspection on it. If the price is still around $115k, I think you could get 2 very nice cars for that kind of money.


X2 - too many 10 cars are questionable enough, but when you see one loaded up like this, it gets even worse.
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

bcmiller

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 01:05:17 PM »
124379N682457
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

KurtS

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 01:39:52 AM »
Jerry already inspected it. Let's guess why his appraisal is not mentioned or included....
Summation: Rebody and restamp.
Kurt S
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cdschenk

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 06:04:35 PM »
It only took me three years to get to this point and the thread is very old, but just wanted to comment on it.  The car was sold as a JL8 car at the Mecum auction in 2013 for a princely sum of around $114K; it came out of the Buddy Herin collection and even had personalized JL8 plates on it, which Buddy's family kept.  I ran across the car in Ft. Worth a couple of years ago at a consignment lot after I'd seen it advertised online.  Indeed, it was presented as an original JL8 car with "date correct drive train", and also a rather nebulous story about Jerry M looking at it but not certifying it.

After buying Jerry's book and doing a huge amount of research, I found the following:

- JL8 was only an RPO item from March to July of 1969 and this car was built first week of September.  Master cylinder also does not match a JL8 factory installation, but in fact it does have an Oct date code QX (3:73 posi) rear disk brake axle.  Not the JL8 option, but actually the stronger (straight tube) HD Service package over-the-counter GM performance part.  Coding is the same as a JL8, but JL8 axle tube is tapered whereas the HD axle is not, allowing for bigger bearings.  So, Jerry would not certify this as a JL8 car because it simply wasn't one of the 206 JL8-equipped cars.

- I had to pull the engine and to my surprise found the partial VIN (in the rough cast, not so easy to fake) matched the car, and date casting is August 30, well aligned with an early September build.  M22 tranny carries the same partial VIN.

- As for a rebody/restamp, this one was not letting me sleep so I just pulled the passenger fender to access the heater cover and cowl to have a look at the body partial VINs - both match the dash VIN with no evidence of cut/weld, as verified by a concourse car restorer.

- Cowl tag looks original, rivets don't look to be faked and all coding matches a Tuxedo Black car with black (vinyl) roof, Norwood X33 car.

- Car has a cross-ram setup, with carbs and winters aluminum intake also date stamped in the same time frame.  Not an RPO factory option, but still available as an over-the-counter performance part from the GM dealer.

So, even without Jerry's blessing, I have torn this thing apart looking for any evidence of fakeness and find no reason to believe it's not the real deal, with all date coding between late Aug and early Oct and all VIN's matching.  If it's a fake, somebody went to a huge amount of time and effort to make things match, well over the value of the car (which luckily I got for well under what the guy paid at auction).

Just my two-cent's worth...

KurtS

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2019, 07:02:35 AM »
That would be in conflict with what Jerry's appraisal says. Did you get a copy of it?
And in conflict with this picture of the cowl VIN from 2013.
Kurt S
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cdschenk

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2019, 05:15:07 PM »
I'm kind of a collector of all kinds of cars (GM/Ford/Mopar, etc.) so I certainly don't claim to be a first-gen Camaro expert, but I have spent a lot of time climbing all over this car.  I haven't contacted Jerry yet but will do so out of interest, even though I'm pretty sure my scratching around has been pretty thorough - or if you have more details I'd be more than happy to have a look!  The picture of the cowl VIN indeed looked pretty sketchy (in fact, it looked like somebody had just tried to destroy it), which is why I pulled both the cowl and fender to get access to the heater cover so I could see both.  This is what they look like when cleaned up (the heater VIN was easy to read; the cowl took a lot of patience).  Sure wish this car came with some documentation!

firstgenaddict

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2019, 03:09:52 PM »
The dash top is a reproduction. This means the dash VIN has been removed and re-attached at some point in the past.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
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bcmiller

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Re: Real or Fake Z28
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »
Might want to check date codes on rest of the body.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

 

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