Dealer number

[jcihos]

I am wondering if anyone would have a document for Zone 45 Dealer 134 Ned Gates Chevrolet in Benton Harbor, MI. I received my NCRS shipping report for my 68 z/28 and NCRS has " Believed to have been shipped to National Car rental in Kansas City, MO." I just spoke with Mark at NCRS and he said that if I can find proof that Ned Gates Chevrolet was zone 45 dealer 134 that they could correct the report and also update their records.

[fsc66]

It is pretty scary that they can have information so far off like this. If you go to the NCRS data base on line and plug in Kansas City, MO is comes up with zones: 3, 5, 48 and 13.
If you do the same for Benton Harbor, MI it results in 3 listings and they are all Ned Gates at zone 44 and 45. How in the world can they have National Car rental in Kansas City or any other result in Kansas City for zone: 45??

Paul

NCRS on-line database:
http://www.ncrs.org/services/dealer-code-data.php

[BillOhio]

Thanks for the link Paul. I know the dealer on my car and it's not in the database. I should get my ncrs paper and see what they called the zone and try that

[KurtS]

Zone 45 had South Bend, IN as the HQ in 67-69.
No way was it MO.

[fsc66]

Bill,
Shoot me your dealer and I'll look in my database if you want, send me a PM unless I have looked already?

Paul

[jcihos]

According to NCRS the online database is not official and anyone can upload information into it. That is why even though the database says that I am correct they still will not use it to correct my shipping report. 

[fsc66]

That is true, anyone can add information but they also have a factual database they can look through and see that it could not possible be Kansas City, MO. I'll take a look to see if I have any documents reflecting your dealer.

Paul

[jcihos]

Thank you Paul. Any help would be appreciated.

[fsc66]

Don't have any copies of paperwork just have 2 separate listings for them at the correct address and the zone and code you already have.

Paul

[jcihos]

Don't have any copies of paperwork just have 2 separate listings for them at the correct address and the zone and code you already have.

Paul

Thanks Paul. Doing some research it looks like it was name Twin Cities Chevrolet prior to being purchased by Ned Gates around May 1968. Could it be possible that the deal number stayed the same after the purchase?

[69Z28-RS]

In some cases the dealer number remained the same when the new owner was in the family of the first owner... ie. more of an inherited thing maybe? 

Another possibility, perhaps the dealer number only changed when it was requested to be changed by the new owner?

[fsc66]

Shot me over your e-mail and I'll send you some cool articles about the Transistions between the 2 dealerships.

Paul

[jcihos]

Shot me over your e-mail and I'll send you some cool articles about the Transistions between the 2 dealerships.

Paul

Thanks Paul I received the clippings you sent over. I was speak with Bob Demmel over at NCRS and he was able to find Ned Gates Chevrolet in his records from 1972 as Zone 45 Dealer 134. I have contacted Marylin who handles the Camaro look ups to see if she can correct my shipping report. I am wondering however if the Corvette and Camaro groups don't use the same records. To me that wouldn't make sense but who knows.

[69tuxedoz]

 For the most part, I think NCRS records are accurate but there are definitely errors.  Ive had a couple recently. Most obvious is a report I received on a local sold Z from a small town next to me.  NCRS report says correct dealer and zone numbers, but dealer name is not correct.  This town, Winchester, IN, only had 1 Chevy dealership, Geyer. I know the salesman who sold it, same guy that sold ZL1 #68 and  I have docs and contacted NCRS but they were not interested in correcting.  Another 69 Z, sold new in AL, I have the correct dealer name that matches NCRS info and report, but they will not send new report with the dealer name on it, even though there are other reports with that dealers info and the same zone codes etc.  I think its a great tool, but far from ironclad, which could be bad when trying to help validate other docs that may be with a car.

[camaronut]

I have a friend who is an original owner of a 68 Camaro that he ordered himself.  Still has the car...
So he figures for the helluvit, he'll get the NCRS dealer report to have as more info.
To his surprise, he gets the report and it lists a dealer number, with an additional statement about not being able to identify a dealer name.
My friend calls the person at NCRS and he explains what he has in terms of paperwork, original window sticker, protecto plate...whatever.
In essence, he bought the car at Sausman Chevrolet outside Harrisburg, PA in 68.  The dealer number on the report is one number off the one listed on the window sticker.
He calls the NCRS person and explains the situation.......however, the person at NCRS wouldn't listen to him and wouldn't correct the report / cert....even with proof-positive data.

So.....just because you get a report from the NCRS, I wouldn't take it as gospel truth.

[bertfam]

Guys, the information is coming from GENERAL MOTORS records, not the NCRS. The NCRS is merely performing the service. If the information on the Shipping Data Report is incorrect, blame GM, not NCRS. And it's not the NCRS job to "correct" GM documentation. To the contrary, they have no ability to do that. They can only go by what's on the microfiche.

Ed

[69Z28-RS]

They are reading VERY OLD microfiche (or punched cards is what I had understood).   When I did mine, the first letter came with the 'wrong numbers' since I knew where the car originated... When I informed the responsible party of what I knew and the dealer/zone numbers I believed to be correct, they manually checked the card and found it was 'damaged' and the machine had read it incorrectly...  I ultimately did get a corrected report.

Since that time, the *person* handling these has changed, and perhaps the volume has picked up to the point they can't give as good a personal service I received...?

[jcihos]

Guys, the information is coming from GENERAL MOTORS records, not the NCRS. The NCRS is merely performing the service. If the information on the Shipping Data Report is incorrect, blame GM, not NCRS. And it's not the NCRS job to "correct" GM documentation. To the contrary, they have no ability to do that. They can only go by what's on the microfiche.

Ed

I agree Ed that records did come from GM. What is frustrating though is that I am receiving different answers depending on who I talk to over there. I have been told by one person that the dealer in question did exist and that they have a record of it. Talking to another person their record isn't enough to correct the shipping report.

[bertfam]

I've asked Roy to comment. He no longer does it but he knows the procedure and how it's being handled now.

Ed

[Steve Shauger]

I've had a couple of issues: my Pace Car had some obscure dealer (Max Meyers Motors)in IN listed. The original owners son recalled it being sold at McManus Chev, in Chicago. I later found a window sticker for a car built same time frame, same zone and dealer code and McManus was listed. Yes the microfiche was read incorrectly.

I've also had a report with zone and dealer code "but no further info available". I did a lot of research and found the dealer info and provided it to them and they update.

I found the service they provide excellent and very accommodating.

[bertfam]

Okay, I contacted Roy and here's his reply (He's in Arizona at the auction so he asked me to post it for him). I'm paraphrasing and added the URL links, but you should get the gist.

The NCRS ONLINE DATABASE is created by whoever wants to input data, there is no secondary confirmation of it.
 
The NCRS SHIPPING REPORT data is created from a combination of GM shipping data records and GM dealer directories, neither are complete perfect snap shots of the mid sixties to mid seventies. It’s unfortunate, they just are not. One record contains a zone and dealer number. The other is a dealer directory for a given time period.
 
Those records require translation. Don’t forget you are getting a digitized microfiche translation that is at best poor and can easily be miss read.
 
Throw several major facts into this melting pot and you have a recipe for disaster:
 
First - Every Time GM had a upper management change they restructured the Zones. Dealer names were assigned alphabetically within the zone until a zone change happened. Then it became ALMOST alphabetically unless there was a duplicate number from a previous zone merged with its duplicate from the new zone. In that case all bets are the most reasonable next number got used. In addition, many Dealers had multiple dealer numbers. You also have to take into account dealer ownership changes. In that case it works both ways. Sometimes the dealer number changed sometimes it did not.

Second - I would venture to guess as much as 75% of the existing paperwork out there is bad, and less than 2% of the people understand that.
 
Third - Dealer trades are not tracked by any of this data.
 
Finally - GM did not keep good records.
 
NCRS can update the GM records, because frankly GM would not have them if not for the work a few of us expended back in the 2003-2010 time frame, but they will not, and should not make those corrections or changes without bullet proof documentation of the claim.

Thanks Roy!

Ed

[Pacecar]

I also encountered a couple of questionable NCRS reports.  On  one car, the dealer on the NCRS form did not match the dealer on the Protecto-Plate. On the other car, the dealer was given as being 125 miles away from the original owner. Car with owner history, no paperwork.

[Mike S]

  I am in the process of having NCRS sort out errors on a report for my '67 LOS car I received this week.
It has the correct dealer name (Kelsey & Sons Chevrolet, Solvang, CA) but on the report the dealer code doesn't match what is in their (NCRS) DB and they have the dealer location printed as Solvang, New York.
  The car was bought from the original owner in Solvang California.

Mike

[Mike S]

With fruit aside, looking up Kelsey & Sons dealer code in the NCRS DB does not match what the report dealer code shows so there is an error either in interpreting the micro film or the DB has mis-information. Regardless, for $50 I expect accurate info., where possible, and it will also give them the opportunity to correct the DB, if needed.
Also, there is no Solvang, New York.

Mike

[Mike S]

 The service is helping, IMO, and should remain available. But, like all services offered there are bound to be glitches that need to be resolved.
My first report for the 67 NOR was accurate. The recent 67 LOS report had a red flag when it stated 'Solvang, NY' instead of 'Solvang, Ca'. Further checking uncovered a discrepancy with the dealer code listed in the report showing a different dealer name in their DB. That's when I began to research further. I opened a help ticket with them and they responded it was going to be checked.

Mike

[69Z28-RS]

Ed,

Several of us have mentioned issues or problems experienced, but was done from the standpoint of pointing out what might be experienced, and potentially corrected, from the report...

I haven't heard anyone complain about it being so bad it should be 'terminated'...  It was worth the $50 to me just to confirm the information I already *believed* I knew...  ie.  the dealer and the production date... and it did (after the initial error with the bad microfiche was corrected)...

Gary

[jcihos]

Mike from what I am told the online DB cannot be counted on for accuracy since anyone can put entries in there. So I can see why they wouldn't correct off of that. My issue was that one of the admins from the Corvette side was able to find record of my zone and dealer number but the Camaro side will not correct the report.

Gary I agree that this can be a very helpful tool also and that it should not be terminated. I like you am looking for confirmation of what I have been told by the original owner. All records that anyone has found points to the correct dealer being Ned Gates Chevrolet.

[X33RS]

I can only wish I had the kind of problems you guys are having.  At least I'd have something to go on, lol.   My car falls into that "no information available" category with NCRS. 

[Mike S]

 As an update, NCRS sent me a revised report after they researched again. The dealer code was the same as before, so their on-line DB is not accurate vs. the microfiche, but they correct the state it was sold in (changed NY to CA).
The report reads the selling dealer as Kelsey & Sons Chevrolet, Solvang Ca. Dealer code 267 , zone 34
Interesting was the UOIT has an April 13, 1967 date and the reports production date is April 18th.
Is that 5 day spread from the time the car build began to when it was finished, parked in a lot and then left the grounds for delivery?

Mike

[z28z11]

I can only wish I had the kind of problems you guys are having.  At least I'd have something to go on, lol.   My car falls into that "no information available" category with NCRS. 

Yeah, me too for one of mine. Pace Car came through but the L78 BB was in the Dead Zone. Aggravating, after getting my hopes up (that it might be a Nickey as it came out of Chicago/Illinois area according to old registrations included with the car). At east it has the original 500 lb. POP with it -

Regards,
Steve

[fsc66]

For Kelsey & Sons I have zone 34 dealer 270.

Paul

[fsc66]

Steve,
What info did they give you on the L78?

Paul

[Kelley W King]

My Z went through, my L78 was in the dead zone also. It is a 12A car.

[fsc66]

Mike:
This should help you with NCRS, see this web site:
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-282648/1970-chevrolet-camaro-z28/

1970 Camaro sold at same dealer, scroll down to the paperwork. There is a Car invoice bottom left, the dealer zone and code appear on the top left section of the invoice. Shows 34 270.
See attached little blurry but still legible:

[fsc66]

Mike:
PM me your e-mail and I'll send you clearer copy enlarged.

Paul

[fsc66]

Mike,
More info here, scroll to bottom of post:
http://www.truckforum.org/threads/for-sale-1971-chevy-cheyenne-c10-long-bed-at-factory-ac-all-stock.35016/
I e-mailed him asking for any original paperwork showing the zone and code.

Paul

[Mike S]

Hi Paul,

   That dealer info code shown on the document is in the NCRS DB and I wonder if it one of two possibilities:
1- The document in the photo is not original and the NCRS DB info was used to create it.
-or-
2- The dealer code changed based on Ed's reply #20 "First - Every Time GM had a upper management change they restructured the Zones......" and the NCRS DB reflect the changed code.

  Per Marilyn at NCRS she re-checked her research and the dealer code is 267 (what they sent me originally) except the error for the dealer state.

Mike

[fsc66]

Ok, are you saying that Car invoice is not original in the 1970 ad?
The NCRS on-line database is a compilation what people added to it, nothing to do with what NCRS uses when they research dealer info for orders. They use GM documents and microfiche. However, when we need supporting information to have them change what they have, you need original documents for that. I would say that car invoice is original.

Paul

[KurtS]

I can confirm - Kelsey and Sons in Buellton was 34 270 in 69.
I noticed that with the 34 267 #, NCRS listed them in the town next door, Solvang.

[Mike S]

Hi Kurt,

   The original owner who lived in Solvang told me he bought it at a dealer in Solvang in 67. I'm not familiar with that part of Ca. but I see Buellton and Solvang are near each other so if the dealer moves to another location, does the code change?

Thanks,
Mike

[69Z28-RS]

The information I gathered in my area for several years in the late 60's, early 70's would suggest that the 'dealer number' would change if there was a change in ownership (or name) of the dealership.

[fsc66]

Some nice reading regarding Kelsey & Sons and Solvang Garage/Motors.

https://www.autoyas.com/US/Buellton/675873609126354/Kelsey-AUTO-Salesman

More:
http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001062.html

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/kelsey-sons-chevrolet-dealer-buellton-16277139

Paul

[Mike S]

Hi Paul,
  Interesting reads! This one ( http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001062.html)  mentions Kelsey moved from Solvang to Buellton but doesn't mention the year. So if Kurt's research shows it was code 270 in 1969 and NCRS shows it as 267 in 1967, I suspect Gary is correct about the code changing when the dealer moved. This leads me to believe that Kelsey moved from Solvang to Buellton sometime between 67 and 69.
  I love splitting hairs research 

Thanks!
Mike

[69Z28-RS]

I obtained a LOT of information re 'Dealer names/codes' and zone numbers from questioning a long time friend of mine who has worked in 4 or 5 of the north alabama dealerships in the PARTS Department over 40+ yrs.   It seems the *parts guys* know more about these changes than anyone else in the dealerships as all the parts that come in to them have the zone/dealer number included.  I 'suspect' that GM uses/used the zone/dealer number for shipping/billing of everything shipped to that dealer (cars and parts as well).   For the Huntsville Alabama dealership (that has changed owners/dealer names a half dozen times since then, the *dealer number changed each time.   For all the north Alabama dealerships, the ZONE number also changed several times due to the *warehouse location* changing over the years (It's been in Birmingham, Atlanta, Mississippi, and now is in Texas I think).

So the point of my 'story' here is to find an OLDer long time parts department manager or employee, they *might* be able to recall the history of the zone/dealer numbers for your dealership of interest.

[fsc66]

Mike:
Preliminary research; if the car was purchased in Solvang I would venture to guess it was bought at Solvang Motors. It looks like when the dealership moved to Buellton they changed the name to Kelsey & Son.
I have ads still showing Solvang Motors up to July 1966. Then 2 ads from June 23 and June 24 both 1968, that show Kelsey & Son in Buellton. Unfortunately no 1967 ads. Spoke to the Santinez Valley History Museum  and Carriage House today, asked them to research both dealers and find out when they changed names and when they moved. If they get back to me I'll let you know.

Paul

[Mike S]

 Thanks so much, Paul!

Mike

[fsc66]

Mike,
I didn't hear back today so here is their number so you can follow-up if you wish: Santinez Valley History Museum and Carriage House:  805-688-7889.

Paul

[jcihos]

I am still trying to get an understanding from NCRS on how their records are kept but it seems like the story keeps changing. I was originally told that the Corvette side had record of my dealer only to be told later that they didn't have the record and they found information from the historical center in Benton Harbor, MI. When I asked what historical society and what documents they had I was then told that none of the documents from the historical society had the dealer and zone numbers on them but someone from NCRS had observed the numbers at Bloomington Gold but could not verify if the window sticker was real. BUT if I could provide documents to send in and have them verified then they could change it.  ::)To say that this has been frustrating would be an understatement.