Z28 Emblems.... HOW MANY have been made??

[69Z28-RS]

After viewing the 'Sharkey's Z28' video prompted by the rlafash posting this morning (a real Z28), I stumbled across another video of a 69 Camaro (which was wearing Z28 emblems).. but watching the video, the owner stated when he found it ..  it was a 6-cylinder car... and he chose to put a supercharged 540 ci engine in it..  but yet..  he just HAD to install Z28 emblems also..  Apparently the emblems is the ONLY thing about Z28s that he knew anything about.  I wonder if this is true of *most* Camaro folks re their knowledge of Z28s??   Do they believe the Z28 emblems add value?  make it go faster?  ??   I suppose I'm just confused....

[bertfam]

Gary, to the uninformed buyer, Z28 emblems ads at least 25 percent to the price of the car. Sometimes a LOT more!

I'm always amazed by the number of "newbies" that come onto these sites stating they just bought a numbers matching xxx (Z28, L78, L89, etc...) and NOW they want to know what we think about the trim tag, engine suffix, VIN stamp, etc...

And then they get P!$$ED off at US because we tell them they got ripped off and we never hear from them again.

In this day and age of instant information, people that buy cars without due diligence deserve what they get.

Ed

[69Z28-RS]

25% kicker for $100....   I suppose that makes those emblems a 'good investment' for such 'sellers'... 

[dale_z28]

Gary, this has been a sore spot for me since "day one" (when I bought my Camaro). There's a guy in my hometown that runs a body shop (more like a chop shop) and has ALWAYS slapped Z-badges on Camaros. He's bought up many, many a 6-banger or 307 and with a few emblems "transformed" it into a very valuable and sought-after car. In his mind, anyway. I got on him about it when I finally answered an ad for some rally rims and came face-to-face with him. He said (to quote Hillary) "what difference does it make?" I told him I was tired of guys telling me that their VW bug beat a Z/28 the other day... Arrrgh! My pet peeve!

[z28z11]

It happens even when the buyer has some knowledge of what a Z is - I have an acquaintance that was really after me to come look at his "Z" - a good looking car to be sure, until we looked in the engine bay and discovered the car was apparently an A/C car - vacuum pot opening covered on the firewall, A/C radiator support, no dual exhaust plates, a lot of obvious details wrong or missing. He was dead sure it was a Z when he told me about it - really disappointed me (and probably him). He paid a lot of dollars for it - wish he had asked for some help first.

Regards,
Steve

[X33RS]

I think everyone knows a 69Z is the most copied car in existence, from just slapping emblems on to more extensive clones.    Once in a great while I'll spot a real one but they are few, which I find strange considering they made 20,302 of them.  I think most people don't care what it started life as, they just want the appearance.   

Another one that kills me are all the SS cars running around with Z28 stripes, lol.   I'll admit I'm a little tired of seeing that.  To actually see an SS with the correct stripe package on it is a rare occasion anymore.

[ko-lek-tor]

To actually see an SS with the correct stripe package on it is a rare occasion anymore.

Yea, that is what I always say, correct stripes! Correct just like this one.lol...a good example of correct. Oh, correct bumper too

[bertfam]

About four years ago I was driving my 68 L89 to the store, and an older gentleman (older than me, so around 75 or so) came running up to me and starting regaling tales of his 67 Camaro he purchased new. It was a Z28 with a 427 that he special ordered.

You hear so many of these stories and I just smiled, nodded and told him it must have been a screamer!

However, there's a difference between old age memory and out right deception.

Ed

[ban617]

All Z/28's had Zl2 hoods & spoilers ...& 69 Z/28's had headers & Crossram's in the trunk from the factory...
   Just a few things that some people believe ..,

[x66 714]

I've had people look at my 68 & ask if it still has the original DZ engine in it....Joe

[HawkX66]

I've had people look at my 68 & ask if it still has the original DZ engine in it....Joe

That one isn't as surprising. Until about 10 years ago, I always thought Z28s only had the DZ. We have a 69 Z X77, but never had any up close experience with a 67 or 68 Z so the knowledge was obviously lacking. The "special ordered" 427s etc always kill me though.

[X33RS]

All Z/28's had Zl2 hoods & spoilers ...& 69 Z/28's had headers & Crossram's in the trunk from the factory...
   Just a few things that some people believe ..,

Haha yeah that's another good one.  Every Camaro has a hood and spoilers on it nowadays so it's expected.  To see a Z without any of those it must be a fake, lol.

I'd bet someone here knows how many 69Z's were built early in the year before the hood even became available very late in Dec.  That number has to be pretty substantial.

[ban617]

You could get a rough idea on the total built from the Vin breaks in Jerry's book ... I was thinking about 1 in 10 had the ZL2 .

[Kelley W King]

There are so many(emblems and stripes) around here it is unreal.While looking for the car I have I read Everything Jerry had written and studied every thing I could. I was at a local show a few years back (250) plus cars probably 20 69,s with Z stuff there. A guy looking to buy one was told to see me. He asked how real Z,s were there. I said mine and that blue for sure and I think that black one also. I said the rest are not.

[X33RS]

You could get a rough idea on the total built from the Vin breaks in Jerry's book ... I was thinking about 1 in 10 had the ZL2 .

I'll have to look into that.  I think I've heard the 1 in 10 production statement before but I believe that applies to the entire 69 run.  I'm most interested in production between Aug and Dec 68 before ZL2 was even available. 

[X33RS]

There are so many(emblems and stripes) around here it is unreal.While looking for the car I have I read Everything Jerry had written and studied every thing I could. I was at a local show a few years back (250) plus cars probably 20 69,s with Z stuff there. A guy looking to buy one was told to see me. He asked how real Z,s were there. I said mine and that blue for sure and I think that black one also. I said the rest are not.

LOL, I see the same thing around here.  Tons of 69's.  Hit a good guys event that attracts cars from 4-5 different states here and you'll get sick of looking at them.   Out of all of them I can count the real Z's on one hand.  Crazy.  Up here around town none of the Z's I've seen at the local shows are real.  Some nice ones that appear real on the outside but that's as far as it goes.  I think I've got the only real one in a 100 mile radius.

BJ weekend is the only time you'll see a fair amount of them at the local Pav's cruise where all the high end stuff comes out.

[69Z28-RS]

You could get a rough idea on the total built from the Vin breaks in Jerry's book ... I was thinking about 1 in 10 had the ZL2 .

I'll have to look into that.  I think I've heard the 1 in 10 production statement before but I believe that applies to the entire 69 run.  I'm most interested in production between Aug and Dec 68 before ZL2 was even available. 

Approx 83,700 Camaros were produced by the end of Dec 1968 (of the 240,000 or so produced during the '69 run).   Using that percentage (approx 1/3 of the Camaros were produced Before the ZL2 was available).

PS.  From my own recollections of the time ('69 thru '72 when I was in the USAF and 100% involved in the Z28/etc street scene), *very few* Z28s were produced with ZL2...  It was the mid'70's before it seemed that every Camaro of any ilk were buying the ZL2 hoods to 'upgrade' their Camaros...

[BULLITT65]

Well all of us that have real SS cars, original Pace cars, or Z cars know what we have. If you are fortunate enough to have your original drivetrain more power to you. Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and some guys just don't have the money, and getting the emblems is about as close as they can get to their dream. Same can be said of COPO,or ZL-1 clones. Other guys would rather create there own for a fraction of the price.
I think we all agree the issue is when these cars change hands, and they are not up front about them, (or the worst, pass them off as the real deal) and the market is full of un-informed buyers.
The way things are now, when I see a Z/28 with the flat hood, it just oozes cool to me. The owner of such a car knows he has a historic rare Muscle car , and doesn't need to add a cowl hood to get a nod from the uninformed car enthusiast.

My car has the original ZL-2 hood, which personally I like. But, if my car was originally a flat hood car, I would be running that flat hood, and educating anyone I overheard that all Z cars came with a "cowl induction hood".

Would it be great if they never reproduced them? Maybe. My car might be considered somewhat rare then....haha 

Another good observation is most of the Camaros produced had (non-rally wheel) hub caps, now it is hard to find one with them. Most have rally wheels now. The flat hood, no Z/28 stripe, hub cap Camaros really grab my attention.
There could very well be less than 20,302 of them out there!

[ban617]

From Sept - Dec 68 ,I came up with 83,803 cars built .. 10,026 cars had the ZL2 option total ..I wonder why
you couldn't get the 9737 option with the bigger sway bar & 140 speedo on a Z/28 ?

[X33RS]

You could get a rough idea on the total built from the Vin breaks in Jerry's book ... I was thinking about 1 in 10 had the ZL2 .

I'll have to look into that.  I think I've heard the 1 in 10 production statement before but I believe that applies to the entire 69 run.  I'm most interested in production between Aug and Dec 68 before ZL2 was even available. 

Approx 83,700 Camaros were produced by the end of Dec 1968 (of the 240,000 or so produced during the '69 run).   Using that percentage (approx 1/3 of the Camaros were produced Before the ZL2 was available).

PS.  From my own recollections of the time ('69 thru '72 when I was in the USAF and 100% involved in the Z28/etc street scene), *very few* Z28s were produced with ZL2...  It was the mid'70's before it seemed that every Camaro of any ilk were buying the ZL2 hoods to 'upgrade' their Camaros...

From Sept - Dec 68 ,I came up with 83,803 cars built .. 10,026 cars had the ZL2 option total ..I wonder why
you couldn't get the 9737 option with the bigger sway bar & 140 speedo on a Z/28 ?

So we are talking about a pretty significant number of Z28's then that didn't have ZL2, and a lot of that happened in the first 4 months.    I guess it would be easier to say most Z28's just didn't have it.  You sure wouldn't know that today, lol.

[ban617]

Well from the 10,027 number we need to subtract the Copo's & Pace cars then take that number divided into 20,302 and then would have an idea of the total Z/28's with the Zl2 .

[BULLITT65]

Pretty sure you could get the ZL-2 hood on the SS as well, so take that into account.

Seems like this may have been discussed before?

[ban617]

     Ok, according to the ZL2 report 10,026 hoods orderd about 1/2 went to Copo's & Pace cars so that left 5,000 to be divided between Z/28's ( 20,000) & SS cars ( 30,000 ) so 50,000 divided by 5,000 = 1 out every 10 of those 50,000 had the ZL2 option ... I guess that blows the saying all Z/28's had the ZL2 option....

[ban617]

  Also out of the 12 real Z/28's I know personally all had flat hoods except one & Recall looking for the hole in the fire wall

[X33RS]

     Ok, according to the ZL2 report 10,026 hoods orderd about 1/2 went to Copo's & Pace cars so that left 5,000 to be divided between Z/28's ( 20,000) & SS cars ( 30,000 ) so 50,000 divided by 5,000 = 1 out every 10 of those 50,000 had the ZL2 option ... I guess that blows the saying all Z/28's had the ZL2 option....

 
Wow, looking at that formula with SS's included, the 1 out of 10 would be a greater margin for Z28's alone.  Theoretically, in rough figures, for every 2 Z28's made, they made 3 SS's.  33% more?    Would it be more accurate to say 1 in about 13 Z28's had ZL2?    That would mean out of 20,302 Z's made that year, only about 1,561 69 Z's had ZL2.   

Hey Bullitt, I just made your car pretty rare   Just send a check, lol

[ban617]

Yea that would be fair to say

[BULLITT65]

Seems like Kurt tabulated this in another conversation, and estimated for Z cars it was about 1 in 11 Z/28's had the ZL-2 hood. I think since the SS had its own special hood, it was rare to have a SS with the ZL-2 hood as well.

So yes me, Gary's Z may have an original (69Z-28RS), and a handful of other guys on here.
Its nice that the originals have a date code, so you can cross check if the date lines up with your car. Every time I am at a show I look for the date code when they have their hoods open, I know there are originals out there, but I haven't come across one yet.

Regardless of hood, I think finding an original Z is chore. Since my X77 car has very little options, the documented original hood was a definite bonus, but I wasn't going to walk away if it turned out to be a flat hooded Z....

[69Z28-RS]

One of the research lists being maintained is the ZL2 hood dates I think...  so that listing would contain the cars owned by folks on this site with original ZL2 hoods...  as I've said before, I was around *many* early Z28s when they were new and a few years old, and VERY FEW had the cowl induction hood from the factory...

[X33RS]

Yea that would be fair to say

WOW, I was just spitballing some numbers for giggles.  I thought that number looked extremely low considering the amount of 69Z's produced.  I never thought it would be that low.  I was thinking more like 3,000 out of 20,000 maybe sounded realistic.  I'm a bit surprised.

[X33RS]

Seems like Kurt tabulated this in another conversation, and estimated for Z cars it was about 1 in 11 Z/28's had the ZL-2 hood. I think since the SS had its own special hood, it was rare to have a SS with the ZL-2 hood as well.

So yes me, Gary's Z may have an original (69Z-28RS), and a handful of other guys on here.
Its nice that the originals have a date code, so you can cross check if the date lines up with your car. Every time I am at a show I look for the date code when they have their hoods open, I know there are originals out there, but I haven't come across one yet.

Regardless of hood, I think finding an original Z is chore. Since my X77 car has very little options, the documented original hood was a definite bonus, but I wasn't going to walk away if it turned out to be a flat hooded Z....

That is exactly right, finding an original "real" Z is a chore nowadays.  Amazes me considering the number produced that it's so difficult to even find a real one.   I don't care so much about what options they have anymore, it's just a treat to see a real one.   

[X33RS]

One of the research lists being maintained is the ZL2 hood dates I think...  so that listing would contain the cars owned by folks on this site with original ZL2 hoods...  as I've said before, I was around *many* early Z28s when they were new and a few years old, and VERY FEW had the cowl induction hood from the factory...

Yep I don't remember seeing cowl hoods that much back then.  Boy you sure wouldn't think that today.

[JKZ27]

Gary, Ed,
I can totally remember being that newbie when I attended my first ALL Camaro show back in 1992. I was an "enthusiast" of first gens, though I didn't own one, and I could identify a 69 "Z28" by its emblems and its overall great looks but I really knew nothing about them, as it turns out. I arrived at the show in my recently acquired 1979 Z28 (which I loved) and quickly found myself surrounded by Z28 badged Camaros with 302 engines. I had never heard of a Chevy 302. I just assumed a Z would have been available with any of the performance engines and trans available, including automatics. I was 18 at the time and someone could have easily sold me a 69 "Z28" with a 350 and A/C and, if I didn't become passionate about originality, I could still be trying to defend its legitimacy today.   I'm not saying that I'm not tired of seeing innocently, falsely badged cars but I can surely see how and why it happens. A "middle-of-the-road" car guy sees a look that he likes and then copies it. No mal intent.
We had a fellow come in and buy a new well equipped GMC Sierra and then paid for ALL the Denali emblems and trim pieces and had us install them. I was thinking, C'mon man! But, now he has the "look" without the price tag or lower fuel mileage.

[camaroboy68ss]

Gary, Ed,
I can totally remember being that newbie when I attended my first ALL Camaro show back in 1992. I was an "enthusiast" of first gens, though I didn't own one, and I could identify a 69 "Z28" by its emblems and its overall great looks but I really knew nothing about them, as it turns out. I arrived at the show in my recently acquired 1979 Z28 (which I loved) and quickly found myself surrounded by Z28 badged Camaros with 302 engines. I had never heard of a Chevy 302. I just assumed a Z would have been available with any of the performance engines and trans available, including automatics. I was 18 at the time and someone could have easily sold me a 69 "Z28" with a 350 and A/C and, if I didn't become passionate about originality, I could still be trying to defend its legitimacy today.   I'm not saying that I'm not tired of seeing innocently, falsely badged cars but I can surely see how and why it happens. A "middle-of-the-road" car guy sees a look that he likes and then copies it. No mal intent.
We had a fellow come in and buy a new well equipped GMC Sierra and then paid for ALL the Denali emblems and trim pieces and had us install them. I was thinking, C'mon man! But, now he has the "look" without the price tag or lower fuel mileage.

I was just like that when I was growing up, though I remember seeing my first early 68 Z/28 that was pre Z/28 badging and just had 302 emblems and I was utterly stumped because only Z/28's had 302's and there was no emblems on the car, plus it was missing the cowl hood that was apparently standard on all 67-69 Z/28s right? lol.

[ban617]

Obviously , you did read section in this topic about the ZL2 (cowl hood) they on 69's only & started in late Dec of 68 ...

[camaroboy68ss]

Yeah I read that, and I have learned a lot more about first gens since I was 10 years old thinking that.

[X33RS]

There was the one thing that always set them apart from others early on, and it could be seen a mile away.  The stripes.  Unfortunately everything has Z28 stripes now.

[Kelley W King]

It is amazing what this site and age teaches us. In the 70,s I lived in an apartment and a neighbor had a ralley green 69 Z like the surviver in another post. The local guru said it was a clone because they did not make RS Z,s. We new nothing then about X codes or DZ letters or anything else about what makes a real Z. But even then the emblems and stripes did add value to the cars real or not. Back then my brother had a real 68 SS L78 but it had Z emblems and Z stripes.

[X33RS]

In 1970, my father almost bought an exact duplicate of the car I have now.  My father had his 69 GTO already, and was thinking about a second car.  Neighbor had a 69 frost green RS Z, black stripes, white deluxe houndstooth, flat hood, no spoilers.  Car was only a year old at the time and the guy wanted to sell.  Test drove it and all but in the end he passed on it for money reasons.  The owner and my father knew it was a real car, they weren't really being cloned yet at that point, lol.  So some people were aware they made RS's.   But yeah Kelley, I know what you mean, I ran across a lot of people even up into and throughout the 80's that scoffed at Z's with the RS package thinking they were never made.  Always thought that was weird.

[wtexz10]

 

"I was just like that when I was growing up, though I remember seeing my first early 68 Z/28 that was pre Z/28 badging and just had 302 emblems and I was utterly stumped because only Z/28's had 302's and there was no emblems on the car, plus it was missing the cowl hood that was apparently standard on all 67-69 Z/28s right? lol.
[/quote]


I was that guy.  While looking to purchase my first car with my dad in 1971, we stopped at a car lot that had two Camaros for sale.  One was a red/white striped 69 Z/28 and the other was a Lemans Blue/white striped 69 302 sport coupe.  I new my dad wouldn't let me purchase a "fast car" but I did know what a 302 meant in a Camaro.  So we test drove the 68 and putted around in it.  I knew he wouldn't punch it because that would have set a bad example.   All the good stuff was there.  302, check, 4 speed with muncie shifter, check, 15" wheels check, multi leaf rear springs, check, disc brakes, check.  So I bought the car for a princely sum of $1150.  Took it home, dropped my dad off at the house, drove it about 2 blocks and nailed it.  I'll never forget the feeling of elation that I had indeed scored a Sport Coupe with a 302,  but what the heck was the deal with no Z/28 emblems?  Must have been special order?  Nope I just hadn't figured out that the early ones didn't have emblems.  So what did I do the next day?  Stopped at the Chevy dealership and ordered Z/28 badges.  Still have the 302 emblems, wish I had kept the car, but that's another story.