Author Topic: Pistons for a 1967 327/275  (Read 9399 times)

67stripper

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Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« on: April 01, 2016, 01:20:20 AM »
I'm working on my 1967 Camaro with a 327/275. Currently i have the engine out while working on the rest of the car and decided to take a look at it and reseal some leaks. The engine was rebuilt by a local machine shop back in 1994 and has only run sporadically over the years. I found a number of problems with the engine but the big one is the pistons. They are Badger rebuilder pistons that have a full circular dish with no quench. Bad news. I asked for a lower compression at the time of rebuild so that it would not ping as this was an issue when driving in the past. The machine shop sold me these pistons because they were available and inexpensive with the rebuild and stated they were 8.5 to 9.0 to 1. I was not concerned about inexpensive as I wanted it done right. One of the valves didn't seal when changing the valve seals so I took the head off and found the Badger pistons. Checked the deck height and found the pistons are 0.050 down in the hole. More bad news. Looks like I need to change the pistons. The question. Does anyone know of a supplier of 327 pistons (preferably cast as a stock rebuild) that have the correct compression height of 1.675"? All the rebuilder pistons I've looked at seem to have a shorter compression height of 1.655", 0.020 shorter.

X33RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2016, 02:12:52 AM »
1.678 from KB

  http://www.jegs.com/i/Keith+Black/648/KB156.030/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710594203&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180003463231&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwlfO3BRDR4Pj_u-iO2U0SJAD88y1Sj5kVLfroAvERoi5Czj981DjNqrqf3sa4ZSrR3gnE6hoCWErw_wcB 

How close to zero deck are you trying to get?
When I do the math for compression height, assuming you still have a stock deck height of 9.025, I come up with a 1.7 compression height for zero deck.
 

BULLITT65

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2016, 04:33:48 AM »
I am surprised Summit wouldn't have a cast piston for a stock rebuild with the right factory height. Plus should be cheaper than KB.
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69Z28-RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 05:05:29 AM »
forged Speed Pros for  $350/set of 8...  probably the ones I'd buy..
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-8kl2165f30

or hypereutectic speed pro for $33 each - about $280/set  (1.675)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-wh660cp
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X33RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 12:58:14 PM »
Yeah I agree Bullitt, you would think that would be the case.  Seems now the cheaper aftermarket pistons are more "generic" and compression heights don't follow the factory as closely anymore.  It's that way with many brands of engines now, I ran into the same issue with a 351w I just built for a customer.  It's just the nature of it today.

  To get it right and have tight quench takes a bit of work now.  Just can't buy a piston off the shelf to fix it (unless you get into custom stuff $$$$).   What I always end up doing since these 40+ year old engines need to be decked anyway because they are so out of square, is taylor the compression height and how much needs to be decked and attempt to keep the piston about .007 in the hole, which saves the deck for future rebuilds.  I never like to take them all the way down.
The Windsor I mentioned had .013" taper on the deck from one end to the other so we shaved a lot to square it up, and selected a KB piston, set everything up .007 down in the hole.  In some cases you get into custom pin heights to get the compression height where you want and it starts to get pretty expensive.  Just went through this on my DZ using JE pistons so we didn't have to widdle the block so much.  There's really no cheap way to achieve tight quench anymore.

Given the example above, even the KB piston with the compression height he is looking for is still going to be .022" in the hole if his deck height is a stock 9.025.   That's not good enough in my opinion if I were building this from scratch.   Shaving .022" off the deck is a bit excessive too.  Plus I'm willing to bet the deck height is probably a little wanky if it's untouched.  Probably a little higher or lower on one end or the other, they almost always are if original.  So at a minimum it would have to be squared up.  Once that's done things would be a little tighter, how much it's hard to say until you dig in, but it takes some work to get these things right, and he would likely end up looking at different compression heights to dial it in.

BULLITT65

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 01:02:18 PM »
Thats a good idea, regarding the deck height. I see what your saying on saving as much of the block as possible. Can you use a thicker brass head gasket so there is less milling to achieve the same thing?
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X33RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2016, 01:10:22 PM »
You can play with head gaskets, cometic head gaskets has several thicknesses to play with.  What I shoot for is about .040" quench to provide a little safety margin on a street engine.
  So if you run a typical .039 gasket you'll have that piston nearly zero deck to achieve the .040" quench.  Depending on how much you shave from the deck, you most likely get into custom pistons to adjust the pin height.
  Stuff gets expensive in a hurry, but tight quench is great for producing power and being less prone to detonation.  Kind of important when you push the limits of pump gas.

BULLITT65

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 01:42:09 PM »
I agree. I had good luck with Cometic gaskets. You aren't kidding with the gasoline these days. The oxygenated stuff out here in California has to be the one of the worst.
On the flip side I have seen guys have some good results with power from E-85. But you have to orient your build for it.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 03:16:04 PM »
He's asking for a stock rebuild.
Decking would be optimal, but clearly is not required for a stock rebuild. All original engines ran with that deck variance for mucho miles without issue.
Kurt S
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X33RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 03:45:21 PM »
You are right Kurt, these factory engines had terrible quench and ran pistons way down in the hole.  That has a lot to do with why these factory engines never met the advertised compression ratios.  Every original I've taken apart fell short of advertised about a 1/2 point.  .025" in the hole isn't uncommon to see on original engines, but .050" is pretty excessive.

He mentioned wanting it done right and didn't appear to like what he was seeing within that paragraph, plus in a later post I was trying to help Bullitt, which is what led me to get into more detail about how it's done.  Sorry if it's too much, thought it would be helpful.

KurtS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 06:43:32 AM »
No, it's all good.
I just don't want people to think you *have* to deck to put together an engine.
Kurt S
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67stripper

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2016, 11:39:05 PM »
Thanks very much to everyone who replied. I appreciate it very much.

Here is what I have and my current research on my problem. The car is an original matching number drivetrain car with a stock tune 327/275, PG and 2:73 non posi rear end. It is a very nice survivor car with 75K miles that my wife drives. When it was driven regularly it pinged under load so I decided to rebuild the engine and lower compression as it was sludged inside from minimal oil changes by the previous owners. It actually ran pretty well and my wife and I put about 12,000 miles on it over about 6 years. See the attached picture of the engine stamp. So, decking the block is not an option. If it was not a matching number car and engine I would not hesitate to deck the block .020 to make cast rebuilder pistons work. From discussions with my local machinist the rebuilder pistons being .020 short in compression height is pretty standard as they assume about a .020 deck job so they are what he calls a compensation piston. This seems consistent with comments above to not deck the block too much which I agree with.

Originally from the factory this engine seems to have had:
Bore: 4.00
Stroke: 3.25
Heads: 62CC (Measured by previous rebuilder at my cost, may be in question, going to measure tomorrow)
Deck: 0.030 below (current piston is 0.050 down and appears to be 0.020 short on compression height from 1.675", although need data but Badger is out of business, may measure tomorrow)
Head gasket: 0.015 thick steel shim at 4.10 bore (Assumed from available replacement from Fel Pro)
Piston volume: 5CC (based on typical 4 eyebrow piston data available today for replacements)

Using the United Engine and Machine (KB) compression calculator gives 9.76:1 compression on a stated nominal of 10.25:1 and good quench at 0.045 (0.030 + 0.015).

Current take apart:
Bore: 4.030
Stroke: 3.25
Deck: 0.050
Head gasket: Fel Pro 7733PT 0.039" compressed at 4.125" bore
Head volume: 62 CC
Piston dish: 9.57 CC est (measured at 3.150" at 0.075" plus small eyebrows)
Compression: 8.4:1 with a quench of 0.164 (0.050 + 0.039 + 0.075) The quench really seems to be the problem here plus the lower compression of 8.4:1 where I would really like to be at 9.0:1 or slightly above. The actual quench and compression may be somewhat lower as I understand that rods can be up to 0.005" shorter from reconditioning which these were.

If I use a steel shim Fel Pro head gasket (1094) at 0.015" compressed with a 4.1" bore the compression and quench are: 8.87:1 and 0.140. Not really good enough. So, it looks like new pistons are in order to get better quench and higher compression that is not too high.

Options appear to be D Cup type pistons that appear to be only sold by KB in Hypereutectic or hyper or forged flat tops as these seem to be the only pistons that are near the stock compression height of 1.675" KB Hyper being slightly longer at 1.678" and the forged Sealed Power suggested above being slightly shorter at 1.671". The only problem I can see with the KB Hyper is cost. They are quite a bit more expensive that the hyper forged flat tops from Sealed Power. Seems odd but market position I guess.

Compression and quench for the two options

KB Hyper
Bore: 4.030
Stroke: 3.25
Deck: 0.030
Head gasket: 0.015" compressed steel at 4.1" bore
Heads: 62CC
Piston dish: 13 CC
Compression and quench: 9.04:1 and 0.045". Looks pretty good but pistons are $420 at Summit. May need rings also but I could use the ones in the engine as they are new and look good.

Speed Pro Forged
Bore: 4.030
Stroke: 3.25
Deck: 0.030
Head Gasket: Fel Pro 7733PT Composition .039" at 4.125"
Heads: 62 CC
Piston Dish: 5.4 CC
Compression and quench: 9.27:1 and 0.069.

Looks like either would work. I lean toward the KB Hyper because they provide better quench but they are more expensive. Not that cost is a big deal but something to think about. If I cut the heads a little bit I can get a bit more compression. I think I'll do that as the factory cut is pretty rough with lateral machining scratches between the bores.

Does this analysis make sense? What do you all think?

Blake





69Z28-RS

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2016, 02:52:41 AM »
If you decide to allow the machine shop to deck your block, you can request they NOT cut the stamped deck.. ie. they can stop short of the stamped deck area so as to maintain your broach marks and stamping...  To me the broach marks are the most important, since when they are gone, it's nearly impossible to prove original stamping.
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ban617

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2016, 12:22:12 AM »
Personally I would go with the forged Pistons over the cast / hyperuetectic pistons ..

67stripper

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Re: Pistons for a 1967 327/275
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 01:07:35 AM »
69z28-rs
I don't think it is really possible to only deck part of the block with the usual equipment at machine shops. Most of them have machines that use a circular grinder on the deck rather than the broaching or cutter approach of the factory. Although possible seems pretty difficult to have a straight line finish at the end.  i wouldn't take the chance with any I know. They might deck the complete block. The broaching and numbers are pristine on this block and really worth saving for this car.

ban617
Why would you choose the forged pistons. They have more piston to wall clearance and are noisier. I don't need the power or the durability.

What I need from this engine are pretty simple: run smooth and quiet, no detonation and no leaks.