Door to Rocker alignment. End of adjustment.

[HawkX66]

A while back I posted about my rocker to door gap at the front bottom PS. I’m having problems lining up the front of the door with the front of the rocker.
I have born with doors and the rockers are mint 69 transplants. All the measurements match PS to DS from the quarters forward, but I still need to move the PS door another 1/8” forward to line up the rocker to the front of the door. The doors measure out “perfect” also. I thought the PS door was off, but I was wrong.
It looks like my lower hinge mount plate is at the end of its adjustment. I think if I carefully opened up the hole slightly it would give me the adjustment I need. Any reason I wouldn’t want to do this? I hate to do it, but the only alternative I can see is moving the A-Pillar forward which I'm not doing...
Here’s what I’m talking about:

[Mike S]

Hi Dave,

  Are the door hinges original (or rebuilt original) or reproduction?

Mike

[HawkX66]

Hi Dave,

  Are the door hinges original (or rebuilt original) or reproduction?

Mike

They're original. I need to rebuild them though. They aren't bad, but they drop the door slightly. If they weren't original, I'd weld the mounting hole closed and re-drill it a little further back.

[X33RS]

Are you going to run the fender that tight to the rocker?  If you do, there is really no way to run the door up even with the rocker, it would be too close to the fender.

And, if you move the door forward even with the rocker, what is that doing to the rear door and quarter gap?

[Mike S]

My thinking is the fender gap in the picture was for illustration purposes only.
If it were my car I would elongate the holes in the door hinge using a dremmel and routering bit for the extra needed movement.
Would moving the door forward to be even with the rocker cause the rear gap to be too large?

Mike

[HawkX66]

Are you going to run the fender that tight to the rocker?  If you do, there is really no way to run the door up even with the rocker, it would be too close to the fender.

And, if you move the door forward even with the rocker, what is that doing to the rear door and quarter gap?

My thinking is the fender gap in the picture was for illustration purposes only.
If it were my car I would elongate the holes in the door hinge using a dremmel and routering bit for the extra needed movement.
Would moving the door forward to be even with the rocker cause the rear gap to be too large?

Mike

Yes, the fender was just loosely fitted on there to check contours etc. The gap at the back is about 1/16" right now, so there should be plenty of tolerance to get the front lined up or very close.
What would your reasoning be for elongating the hinge versus the hinge mount on the A-pillar?

[Mike S]

1/16" is too tight so you look to be in a good position to move forward a couple of ~16th's. I only stated the hinge itself because it may be easier instead to open up instead of trying to elongate the pillar sheet metal due to the captive nut. If the nut has some backward movement then maybe you can trim the edge of the pillar side but will that have any impact on the captive nut cage?

Mike

[X33RS]

My thinking is the fender gap in the picture was for illustration purposes only.
If it were my car I would elongate the holes in the door hinge using a dremmel and routering bit for the extra needed movement.
Would moving the door forward to be even with the rocker cause the rear gap to be too large?

Mike

Exactly what I was getting at Mike.

I would most certainly elongate the hinge itself.

[HawkX66]

1/16" is too tight so you look to be in a good position to move forward a couple of ~16th's. I only stated the hinge itself because it may be easier instead to open up instead of trying to elongate the pillar sheet metal due to the captive nut. If the nut has some backward movement then maybe you can trim the edge of the pillar side but will that have any impact on the captive nut cage?

Mike

There's some fore and aft movement in the captive threaded plate. I only was thinking about opening up the pillar a little. The cage only holds the threaded plate from falling out. Once you tighten the bolts, the cage does nothing. To be honest, I think taking a little material from the pillar area would be easier than elongating the hinge. I'm just not positive I want to do either. I don't know if I'll have a choice though.
This might give a better picture. I think the holes were drilled too far back from the factory. It had the same problem before all the bodywork.

[Mike S]

 You may want to verify that the nut in the cage isn't restricted by bent over metal at the ends to prevent the nut from falling out. I seem to remember on my 67 there was a limit the nuts could travel within the cage both vertical and horizontal.

Mike

[HawkX66]

You may want to verify that the nut in the cage isn't restricted by bent over metal at the ends to prevent the nut from falling out. I seem to remember on my 67 there was a limit the nuts could travel within the cage both vertical and horizontal.

Mike

Yes, there is a limit. If you look at the pic above though, you can see it goes well past the cutouts. Its one large plate with four threaded holes.

[Mike S]

2/16" is about a half door bolt thickness. If you have that much extra room then trimming the pillar is probably the better route.

Mike

[HawkX66]

The factory gaps are "supposed" to be .220" +/- .060. I'll call it a little more than an 1/8" min to 1/4" max. The max spec seems like a pretty big gap to me so I should have plenty to work with at the quarter to door gap. I hope... Now to decide which factory piece I'm going to modify... I think it'll end up being the A-pillar if I can't figure out a better idea.

[m22mike]

Hawk
 On more than one car I have relieved the metal on the bolt holes on the pillar and even went up a drill size or two on the hinges. Wont hurt a thing.

Mike

[HawkX66]

Hawk
 On more than one car I have relieved the metal on the bolt holes on the pillar and even went up a drill size or two on the hinges. Wont hurt a thing.

Mike

I appreciate that Mike. I'm just always extremely hesitant to modify original parts. Either the hinges or the A pillar would definitely work for what I'm trying to do, but I just wanted to see if there was a better way first. I'm thinking there isn't.

[X33RS]

There is no other way unless you want to get into welding and body work to tighten the gaps.  3/16 is about the most I like to see but I shoot for slightly tighter.  Some cars you just can't get there without major mods.
  Hinges are replaceable and the first thing I would attempt to modify if needed.  In the end the tighter gaps are what people see and what improves the overall appearance of the car.  No one cares to look at your door hinges.  Opening those holes aren't visible anyway once assembled, as the shouldered bolts cover it.   Like Mike states, it's easy to drill up a couple sizes and doesn't hurt a thing, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Mike S]

 I looked over my original coupe and see an average of 2/16-3/16" all around with the majority being 3/16" at the doors.
 I set my convertible gaps at 3/16" minimum for the sake of body flexing.

Mike

[HawkX66]

There is no other way unless you want to get into welding and body work to tighten the gaps.  3/16 is about the most I like to see but I shoot for slightly tighter.  Some cars you just can't get there without major mods.
  Hinges are replaceable and the first thing I would attempt to modify if needed.  In the end the tighter gaps are what people see and what improves the overall appearance of the car.  No one cares to look at your door hinges.  Opening those holes aren't visible anyway once assembled, as the shouldered bolts cover it.   Like Mike states, it's easy to drill up a couple sizes and doesn't hurt a thing, I wouldn't worry about it.

I looked over my original coupe and see an average of 2/16-3/16" all around with the majority being 3/16" at the doors.
 I set my convertible gaps at 3/16" minimum for the sake of body flexing.

Mike

Thanks guys. 3/16" sounds about right for what I'll be shooting for. I'm not planning on massaging my doors or slicing the quarters to achieve my gaps, so I'll have "factory" gaps I'd imagine and they won't be much less than 3/16" if at all. Only one or two spots do the quarters or the fenders not quite match the radii of my doors so I'm happy with that. I should only have to adjust a couple very small spots. The only reason I'm doing this is because the door not lining up with the end of the rocker would definitely bug me even though it was like that from the factory. I want both sides to match for my own sake of sanity or lack of....

[firstgenaddict]

The front fender gap has be slightly larger than the other's because of the way the door and fender peaks align.
I would massage the rear edge of the fender do that it aligns better to the rocker, it will give you a little and then a little in the hinges would make a huge difference.

It almost looks like there is a slight bump on the front of the rocker as well.

[HawkX66]

The front fender gap has be slightly larger than the other's because of the way the door and fender peaks align.
I would massage the rear edge of the fender do that it aligns better to the rocker, it will give you a little and then a little in the hinges would make a huge difference.

It almost looks like there is a slight bump on the front of the rocker as well.

I haven't really touched the front fender gap at this point. I actually took it off on Sunday to better assess the door to rocker alignment. In the picture I think I had three bolts holding it on. I'm just trying to line up the front edge of the door with the front edge of the rocker. Once I'm able to do that, I'll be able to see where I stand with the gaps. The rocker is pretty straight. It must be the angle of the pic where you're seeing a bump. I'm not sure.

[firstgenaddict]

Are you trying to get the door to fender and rocker to fender to be an even gap?   It is not necessary, you can get your door gap by spacing back from the rocker, leaving the rocker proud of the door. 

[Sauron327]

I haven't really touched the front fender gap at this point. I actually took it off on Sunday to better assess the door to rocker alignment. In the picture I think I had three bolts holding it on. I'm just trying to line up the front edge of the door with the front edge of the rocker. Once I'm able to do that, I'll be able to see where I stand with the gaps. The rocker is pretty straight. It must be the angle of the pic where you're seeing a bump. I'm not sure.

Why? it is not unusual for doors to be set slightly set back from the leading edge of the rocker. Yours just need to go forward a tad by the simple alterations discussed. You need to establish your quarter to door gap, then proceed forward. If you want gaps better than factory, start modifying panels. Panel alignment is a choreography and loosely fitting the fender is not helping you. Rebuilding hinges prior to any panel alignment is standard practice. Factory panels are not always going to give you the results you want. Live with them of do what is required to achieve the fit you want.

[HawkX66]

Are you trying to get the door to fender and rocker to fender to be an even gap?   It is not necessary, you can get your door gap by spacing back from the rocker, leaving the rocker proud of the door. 

I guess you could say yes, but I'm really not thinking about the fender to door gap right yet though. My door edge on the driver's side is in line with the end of the rocker. I'm trying to make both drivers and passenger sides symmetrical or close to it. Call it OCD, but it would bug me if it weren't. Also, the gaps wouldn't match side to side if I don't do it. With it being different sides I'm sure no one would notice and I know it isn't a big deal, but I'd like to get it close if I can. It will make the door to rear quarter gap closer to being within spec also. It's a little tight for my liking right now.

I haven't really touched the front fender gap at this point. I actually took it off on Sunday to better assess the door to rocker alignment. In the picture I think I had three bolts holding it on. I'm just trying to line up the front edge of the door with the front edge of the rocker. Once I'm able to do that, I'll be able to see where I stand with the gaps. The rocker is pretty straight. It must be the angle of the pic where you're seeing a bump. I'm not sure.

Why? it is not unusual for doors to be set slightly set back from the leading edge of the rocker. Yours just need to go forward a tad by the simple alterations discussed. You need to establish your quarter to door gap, then proceed forward. If you want gaps better than factory, start modifying panels. Panel alignment is a choreography and loosely fitting the fender is not helping you. Rebuilding hinges prior to any panel alignment is standard practice. Factory panels are not always going to give you the results you want. Live with them of do what is required to achieve the fit you want.

I hear you loud and clear Scott. I appreciate it. The fender really has nothing to do with what I've been doing. I've already taken it off. I just had it on there temporarily. Before I go any further I'm going to rebuild the hinge. It has a little slop in it. I wish I didn't have to because the rebuild kits are so different, but it is what it is. I saw an OER kit that didn't look bad other than the expense.

[X33RS]

I'd pick the lesser of 2 evils.   I'd much rather have aftermarket parts in my door hinges than live with doors that won't align properly.  It's the alignment that everyone sees.

I don't believe aftermarket rebuild kits in door hinges affect the value of the car 1 bit....bad gaps however....

Trying to make you feel better about it 

[HawkX66]

I'd pick the lesser of 2 evils.   I'd much rather have aftermarket parts in my door hinges than live with doors that won't align properly.  It's the alignment that everyone sees.

I don't believe aftermarket rebuild kits in door hinges affect the value of the car 1 bit....bad gaps however....

Trying to make you feel better about it 

And I do... thanks. Honestly I'm not sweating the cars value. I'd never sell it. Well, then again everything is for sale for a price suppose. No way around rebuilding the hinges, so I'll do what I can there.

[Sauron327]

Except for detent rollers, I buy pins and bushings from my local jobbers. They stock bushings by the box and you can pick and choose which pin/bushing combo provides zero play.

[m22mike]

Door gaps were crap as built, in the resto world it is all about getting the car to look better. I have, as well as others, even added material to doors in the way of round rod, and grind to adjust gaps to get the desired results.

Mike

[HawkX66]

Except for detent rollers, I buy pins and bushings from my local jobbers. They stock bushings by the box and you can pick and choose which pin/bushing combo provides zero play.

With any luck my detent rollers aren't bad. I haven't looked at them close yet. Hopefully I can get away with just pins and bushings.

Door gaps were crap as built, in the resto world it is all about getting the car to look better. I have, as well as others, even added material to doors in the way of round rod, and grind to adjust gaps to get the desired results.

Mike

I'll get them pretty good I think from what I've been working with so far. My orginal doors are pretty mint with factory hems, so I'm really not interested in screwing with them.

[ban617]

If I'm not mistaken the gaps are listed in the assembly manual .

[HawkX66]

If I'm not mistaken the gaps are listed in the assembly manual .

They are. That's what I put in reply # 12.

[firstgenaddict]

Have you quartered the car? Are you going to?
If you are not then align your rear edge gap, leave the gaps a little larger than spec if the metal is bare.
I use gap spacers made from wooden dowels shaved to the correct thickness.
I tape them in place and usually leave the rear of the door about 3/16 high to compensate for weight of glass and regulators etc.

PERFECT GAPS require welding and filing.

[HawkX66]

Have you quartered the car? Are you going to?
If you are not then align your rear edge gap, leave the gaps a little larger than spec if the metal is bare.
I use gap spacers made from wooden dowels shaved to the correct thickness.
I tape them in place and usually leave the rear of the door about 3/16 high to compensate for weight of glass and regulators etc.

PERFECT GAPS require welding and filing.

Yes, new quarters. Assembled on a jig with OE rockers from another 69. It was the same before the work was done. I like your idea of the wood blocks. I'll make a few out of wood or plastic.
I'm not going for perfect gaps, just real close and symmetrical.
I'm going to leave the gaps about 1/16" larger to account for paint etc.

[Sauron327]

usually leave the rear of the door about 3/16 high to compensate for weight of glass and regulators etc.

I hang weight inside the door so it is "loaded". Now it can be gapped as it should be and bodylines aligned.

[HawkX66]

usually leave the rear of the door about 3/16 high to compensate for weight of glass and regulators etc.

I hang weight inside the door so it is "loaded". Now it can be gapped as it should be and bodylines aligned.

How many lbs do you use?

[firstgenaddict]

Accurately Loading the door would be difficult as weight from one end to other would vary the hang as the leverage would increase as the weight approaches the rear of the door (further from the fulcrum)

with that stated how much and where to place weight?

[Sauron327]

Accurately Loading the door would be difficult as weight from one end to other would vary the hang as the leverage would increase as the weight approaches the rear of the door (further from the fulcrum)

with that stated how much and where to place weight?

20-25lbs and 2/3back. 67's have vent windows for which to accommodate too.  I'm aware of weight distribution and fulcrums and how they apply to tasks. I've done it your way too over the past 30 years, but leave them high after blocking and establishing midlines like on 7's and 8's, or any other model car. If show gaps are done on a car being delivered unassembled, I also tell customers to be careful opening a door set high as it may be very tight until loaded. Exact drop of a door may vary; I cannot predict the exact amount every door will drop after assembly..

If you set your doors .1875 high, then just add weight until it drops .1875.

[Sauron327]

I'm going to leave the gaps about 1/16" larger to account for paint etc.

Do not leave excessive primer on panel edges. Touch them off so as they have minimal mil thickness prior to sealing and topcoating.

[HawkX66]

Perfect. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind about the primer thickness. I know I have a tendency to leave it thicker.