Author Topic: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction  (Read 17476 times)

canadair

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« on: January 19, 2016, 10:53:05 AM »
is there any stand out marks to look for so as not to be fooled

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2016, 12:38:17 PM »
I read this http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54696  it has some pictures. Read it all, because there are some additional details after the pictures.

KevinW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2016, 12:38:37 PM »
Here ya go  http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54696

abiddle was a faster typer :)

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2016, 01:06:24 PM »
Also, I don't think the reproductions have the notches on the snorkel where its pressed together. That's something you can see immediately.

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2016, 01:41:38 PM »
I actually have an auction up currently for one I believe to be a GM original based on what I've read, so I'm very interested in this discussion. I can post those pictures here or additional pictures if it helps the discussion. I don't want to break any rules and I'm not trying to sell it here. But it feels dishonest to not mention it now.

I think air cleaner assemblies would be an excellent research topic for CRG. I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject but I would be happy to gather information from the group and build a document for review?

Andy

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 04:00:04 PM »
Repros are getting better, but they still lack some features that you can spot on NOS ones.

The small square notch in the middle of the seam on the snorkel is a good indicator. It appears on the NOS 5891 one I have in the box, and regardless of flat bottom or raised rib bottom cleaners, it's always been a good feature to help identify an original. I'll dig mine out this evening and post a pic of it -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 04:21:23 PM »
This one is mine: 1970 70 Chevelle SS Cowl Induction Air Cleaner - maybe 1969 Camaro ZL2 base.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121868412453?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

I was told it was a 69 camaro cowl induction, but from what I read the flat edge on flange would be chevelle. Or maybe this is a GM part rather than factory line?

The notches on the snorkel seam, the forming wrinkles, the flame arrestor, and the tape on the seal all lead me to believe its original GM. Some questions about the vent tube having two 45s rather than a 90, so maybe this is a GM later part. The reproductions have a the two 45s, which makes me think they were copying something - why wouldn't they make the repros with one 90?

I'll attach a pic of the snorkel notches, to answer canadair's original question.

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 04:30:57 PM »
Yes, it's a GM air cleaner bottom; no extension ring so not for small block as it sits??
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 04:53:39 PM »
No mine doesn't have a spacer nor a lid. I looked at the pics of the other auction, I'm guessing that spacer is for the 350s.

On the prior link from camaros.net forum:
"Spacers were used to elevate the flange/seal assembly in most applications. BB '69 Camaros did not require one; Z/28s used a short one [1-1/2"?] 350s a taller one [3-1/2"?]. '70-up Chevelles had a smaller unit that mounted on the carb."

L78 steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 05:32:17 PM »
The 2 45 degree bends allow the use of a double pumper carb.
69 Z/28 Dover White. SOLD
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C. SOLD
70 Nova L78 Blk. Cherry,Sandalwood,M21,02B

Bryan302

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 10:44:29 PM »
The repop flat bottom manufactured by CHQ (Rick George) is extremely close to original.  It has the notch, it has a single 90 deg. bend, and ripples in the base to a certain extent.  The spark arrestor fits nice.  The extension and flange fit snug and correct also.  I thought they were very nice for the money!  The original extension and flange also fit nicely on the bottom.

Bryan
Bryan S.
1968 RS Z/28, 12E, PNT R2, TR 749
1969 Z/28 X33, 05A, PNT 52 52, TR 719, endura bumper

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 10:12:22 PM »
Few 6485891 pics as follows - box label, tube w/ 45 X 45 bends, "ribs" on the coil clearance recess, notch. Shame I didn't spring for another one -

Speaking of that, I thought I might give up some heartburn by including a pic from one of my old catalogs, 1981, on sheetmetal prices of GM quarters at the time. By the time I bought a couple of pairs, they had gone up about $100.00 apiece. Anyone with a time machine handy ?

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 10:16:19 PM »
Old prices - hurts to look at 'em -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 10:29:56 PM »
The repop flat bottom manufactured by CHQ (Rick George) is extremely close to original.  It has the notch, it has a single 90 deg. bend, and ripples in the base to a certain extent.  The spark arrestor fits nice.  The extension and flange fit snug and correct also.  I thought they were very nice for the money!  The original extension and flange also fit nicely on the bottom.

Bryan

CHQ is one of the few repro houses that *attempts* to do an accurate job, and generally their parts are the best of the lot of repros...
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2016, 10:40:22 PM »
X2 on Rick -

This repro is the closest I have seen to being correct - but the part number mentioned should be 6485891. The 6485235 cleaner is listed for '70 454, switches back to 6485891 for the '71 Chevelle in my catalog.

http://secure.classichq.com/COWL-AIR-CLEANER-ASSEMBLY-FLAT-BOTTOM-P139C100.aspx

I wouldn't have a problem using the CHQ myself -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2016, 11:04:19 PM »
Thanks for the pics Steve. Those pics match what I have exactly, mines just a little dirtier...Does your box have a date on it?

Here's what I think, based on these pictures and everything I've read. Just to put it all out there, and see if this can lead to a consensus of sorts.

Earlier ZL2 air cleaners had no ridge and had a 90deg vent tube
Later ZL2 air cleaners (> Aug 69) have the ridge and the 90deg vent tube, this same design was used for the 70 Chevelle SS
At some point the design changed to a 2x45deg vent tube, which is found on the GM parts purchased (NOS and service parts)

Maybe the 2x45deg vent tube may not have been found on an assembly line part, but the design was changed to accommodate double pumper carbs for a more generic service part?

Andy

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2016, 11:10:42 PM »
And back to canadair's question. Attached is the picture of this reproduction bottom. Compare this to the picture above by Steve. The forming wrinkles in an original are very obvious and not duplicated by the reproduction part. With this information, you should have no problem identifying an original GM part vs a reproduction.

Andy

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2016, 11:50:56 PM »
CHQ part looks good.  Do they make the spacers as well?

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2016, 01:58:10 AM »
Thanks for the pics Steve. Those pics match what I have exactly, mines just a little dirtier...Does your box have a date on it?

"July 10" but the year is marked out. No box markings other than the label (could be on the bottom flap, I only ever opened one end).

I bought this cleaner sometime in the mid-80's. The "4 spot" flame arrestor was included with the cleaner when I received it. I have no doubt it's a post - '69 manufacture. Ridged bottom or not, I'm still happy to use it on my X77 (which was a flat hood car to begin with). I have the original flat hood and air cleaner in storage -

My NOS 6423907 open element cleaner is dated '95 on the label - one of the last ones in GM inventory when I bought it in '96-97 for the '68 Z.

Regards,
Steve 
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2016, 02:34:14 AM »
Thanks for the pics Steve. Those pics match what I have exactly, mines just a little dirtier...Does your box have a date on it?

Here's what I think, based on these pictures and everything I've read. Just to put it all out there, and see if this can lead to a consensus of sorts.

Earlier ZL2 air cleaners had no ridge and had a 90deg vent tube
Later ZL2 air cleaners (> Aug 69) have the ridge and the 90deg vent tube, this same design was used for the 70 Chevelle SS
At some point the design changed to a 2x45deg vent tube, which is found on the GM parts purchased (NOS and service parts)

Maybe the 2x45deg vent tube may not have been found on an assembly line part, but the design was changed to accommodate double pumper carbs for a more generic service part?
Andy

That's fairly accurate, except that there wasn't an August changeover to the ridged bottom; probably '70 Chevelles built in August '69 DID have the ridged bottom, BUT.. my original 18Sept1969 '69 Camaro Z28 has the flat bottom cowl air cleaner with the 90 deg bend tube.    So either that particular fact is wrong, OR there was a lengthy changeover period for that newer designed part...
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Bryan302

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2016, 07:14:11 AM »
X33RS, yes CHQ has the ext. ring and the seal flange available separately.  Click on the link of CHQ that Steve posted, then click air cleaner and intake, just above and left of air cleaner picture. 

Bryan
Bryan S.
1968 RS Z/28, 12E, PNT R2, TR 749
1969 Z/28 X33, 05A, PNT 52 52, TR 719, endura bumper

X33RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2016, 12:32:47 PM »
Thanks Bryan, I found it thanks to the link you mentioned.

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2016, 01:00:07 PM »
Hi Gary - I read this from Jerry, and others have reported the ridged bottom as original in their late 69 camaros. It may not have been a full changeover, maybe it was a sharing of parts for awhile?

Hello Jerry
I have a 69 Z28 (August build) that has a grooved base on the air cleaner which I have been told is incorrect. My research indicates that the correct base had a flat bottom until May of 1969 but have found no information on what the base looked like after May. I would like to correct this issue but want to make sure that I replace it with the correct piece. You assistance would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ervin

Ervin, the change over to the “grooved bottom” was Sept of 1969. Here is an original ZL-2 air cleaner bottom with flat bottom. All ZL-2 hood cars built from Jan 1969 through August 1969 received this air cleaner base.

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2016, 03:26:30 PM »
Hi Gary - I read this from Jerry, and others have reported the ridged bottom as original in their late 69 camaros. It may not have been a full changeover, maybe it was a sharing of parts for awhile?

Hello Jerry
I have a 69 Z28 (August build) that has a grooved base on the air cleaner which I have been told is incorrect. My research indicates that the correct base had a flat bottom until May of 1969 but have found no information on what the base looked like after May. I would like to correct this issue but want to make sure that I replace it with the correct piece. You assistance would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ervin

Ervin, the change over to the “grooved bottom” was Sept of 1969. Here is an original ZL-2 air cleaner bottom with flat bottom. All ZL-2 hood cars built from Jan 1969 through August 1969 received this air cleaner base.


Yes, I've read that also.. :) ..  There are a number of things that might be accepted by some as 'fact' that there's great doubt about re 'late Camaros (and Corvettes for that matter).  In both cases, Camaros and Corvettes, the 1969 model year ran several months longer (Dec '69 or so), and during that abnormal production period some things changed and others didn't.  For example, my August Camaro and my late July Corvette each came with 'dripper' valve covers, and I've discovered many others which also have the '70 drippers, although JM and his books say '69's didn't have drippers!   Bryon Miller here is doing a research task on differentials, and it's been identified that around August of '69, the differentials began being stamped as '1970 models' (with a C in front of the normal stamping)..  so one has to be careful with absolutes, especially wrt vehicles, and most especially during 'unplanned' abnormal production periods, as Chevrolet certainly didn't begin the 1969 model year with intention of producing '69 Camaros and Corvettes for 16-18 months!
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2016, 03:52:37 PM »
I don't have any skin in the debate, if we can call it a debate. And it certainly doesn't make sense to put a line in the sand (e.g. Sept 69) on the changeover to the ribbed bottom. The purpose of the rib is structural, so I imagine it was simply a design change that was made for the new Chevelle part. Since the 70 SS Chevelle cowl induction part is interchangeable with the 69 Camaro ZL2 part, it makes sense the vendor would not continue making flat bottom parts and ribbed parts at the same time. Logically, the assembly line would use a part until they mixed with the new parts and eventually the flat bottom air cleaners would not be found on the late 69 camaros once the flats were used.

Maybe we could say an August through end of year air cleaner on a camaro is correct if flat bottomed OR ribbed. I think it could be either. Can we live without a rule? :)


abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2016, 04:01:12 PM »
Does anyone have any evidence of a factory assembly line ZL2 air cleaner with the two 45s in the vent tube?

The two 45s have been found on the GM replacement part 6485891 and the reproductions (except the CHQ reproduction is designed to match the earlier design flat bottom and 90 vent tube).

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2016, 05:32:44 PM »
I don't have any skin in the debate, if we can call it a debate. And it certainly doesn't make sense to put a line in the sand (e.g. Sept 69) on the changeover to the ribbed bottom. The purpose of the rib is structural, so I imagine it was simply a design change that was made for the new Chevelle part. Since the 70 SS Chevelle cowl induction part is interchangeable with the 69 Camaro ZL2 part, it makes sense the vendor would not continue making flat bottom parts and ribbed parts at the same time. Logically, the assembly line would use a part until they mixed with the new parts and eventually the flat bottom air cleaners would not be found on the late 69 camaros once the flats were used.

Maybe we could say an August through end of year air cleaner on a camaro is correct if flat bottomed OR ribbed. I think it could be either. Can we live without a rule? :)

I think one has to keep an 'open mind' about various possibilities that can and do occur in a production manufacturing operation.  I didn't build cars, but I did engineering for a computer graphics company and was responsible for some of the products, and it was not unusual for manufacturing to call me re an order they were trying to get out to tell me about a 'problem', so I would truck over to our manufacturing building, observe the problem and come up with a solution that didn't conflict with law, our internal practices, or our marketing information.  Our biggest concern near the end of months and quarters are shipping out to order!  (the systems I was dealing with were $200K-250K products, so it had a significant impact on monthly/quarterly production, which sometimes seemed to be the major thing upper management was concerned with..
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

L78 steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2016, 08:54:58 PM »
I would like to know what the factory did with the COPO ZL1's with the DP carb. The flat bottom 90 Degree elbow would interfere with the secondary pump arm.
69 Z/28 Dover White. SOLD
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C. SOLD
70 Nova L78 Blk. Cherry,Sandalwood,M21,02B

abiddle

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • 1969 Camaro SS 350 - trim 719 52 52
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2016, 09:13:52 PM »
What I wouldn't give to just have a few more pictures of this engine!!!


L78 steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: Identifying a GM cowl induction air cleaner from a reproduction
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2016, 02:23:11 AM »
A.I.R. and headers?
69 Z/28 Dover White. SOLD
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C. SOLD
70 Nova L78 Blk. Cherry,Sandalwood,M21,02B