advice on painting cowl

[BillOhio]

I am having trouble getting my cowl white to look right. I didnt like what the painter did and now struggling myself! I want to have a natural overspray without a tape line. So far I drifted too much down on the firewall black and the next time I backtaped to where I was happy with drift and it looked good but the tape caught enough drift, it directed paint back to the firewall and left a faint line under my nice edge. So I am ready for my next and hopefully last attempt. I have the gun at a 45° angle to the cowl and spraying from the windshield  to the front of the car.
has anyone found a neat trick to spray the cowl and not have a tape line or overspray all over the firewall?
I am thinking I might try a piece of cardboard in front of the cowl and hold it like 1/8 of an inch from the firewall. this might be like my back tape but if the cardboard is angled away from the firewall it shouldnt leave a line. I will add a couple pictures. one of how I hold the gun the other of my cardboard idea. if anyone has a good idea I am ready! 

[BillOhio]

This was my attempt today. paint is thinner as it goes down firewall but still looks like a line. I think I am trying to be too neat with a job that wasn't. Thinking of trying to do the top then using airbrush to just fog the corner. I have a feeling the over spray that drifts down the firewall might be ugly. 

[cook_dw]

Was the paint fade that way originally?  Meaning was the line that far down the firewall? 

[Hans L]

What kind of paint are you using? 

[BillOhio]

the firewall had a brush taken to it with black years ago. You could see the white was to the edge but no idea how far down it went. I didnt intend for it to be that far this time but didnt like the edge at the corner and after misting the edge thats what I got.
Paint is PPG DCC single stage enamel

[cook_dw]

Have you tried flipping the tape paper over so that you taped edge is on the bottom and have the paper fold over the taped edge?  Ignore my poor drawing..  I didn't feel like going into great detail with AutoCAD.

[69Z28-RS]

That's a good drawing Darrell...        If Bill 'rolls' the paper over just right, it should soften that edge exactly the way he wants (if he doesn't spray directly into the fold over..)..

Bill?  you are spraying the white overspray on the top of the cowl AFTER painting the firewall?   is this the order that it was done in the factory??

[Mike S]

Hi Bill,

  When I sprayed my firewall during blackout I tried to emulate a freehand method the line painter may have done as well as performing it in a fast paced environment. I put a thick harbor freight moving blanket on the top of the cowl to substitute as the "cardboard" John Z. stated was used (and when it was used) to mask it, plugged the hole for the wiper (Mark stated this was done) and then making a few practice dry passes to get the "feel". After adjusting for a tight fan on the gun I then made two freehand passes for blackout and along the top stopping short. I don't recall how far up it went originally when I first restored my car back in the mid-80's but from the many pictures of original pictures I have seen as well as my unrestored LOS, I decided to leave the last few inches only with overspray.
  For what you have now you can back tape the existing parts of the firewall and just redo the top part. Unless you can get the DCC mixed the same (this is what I used too, BTW for 30% gloss) so as to avoid a noticeable gloss change, then I recommend to back-tape along the sealer line.
  Below are two pictures showing how the top was left.

Happy soon-to-be New Years!
Mike

[cook_dw]

Mike that looks really good..  Did your tag have white on it originally?  I'm referring to the white that was used to brighten the tag for line workers..  Also what black are you using on the firewall?

[BillOhio]

from what I understand, the black out was done prior to the white since all cars didnt get a white cowl. I tried to back tape it once and the edge I had still caught some drift and pulled it back to where the tape was stuck and made a line. so I had a nice soft line and then this goofy faint line under it.  I was excited until I pulled the tape off. if you guys havent seen this, its Eddies low mile Z. Shows poor blackout but white definitely drifted down the black. In my previous attempts, they didnt look like this

[Mike S]

Mike that looks really good..  Did your tag have white on it originally?  I'm referring to the white that was used to brighten the tag for line workers..  Also what black are you using on the firewall?

Hi Darrell,
   Thanks  I am not sure if the tag had white paint originally. When I first did the car in the 80's I used paint remover to strip paint off the firewall and trim tag and didn't take note. I have see other 05B NOR cars with a white sprayed tag so it must have been done during that time too. I'm on the fence if I should add it or not.
  For paint I am using PPG black DCC mixed to eggshell for the approximate 30% gloss.

Mike

[Mike S]

Bill,

  The white was done after the blackout on your car? I didn't realize that when I replied. In that case I'm not sure if the firewall was masked or the cowl top was done freehand with no firewall masking. IMO, just imagining how the worker would have done that, I suspect maybe he held the gun shooting towards the cowl top front but downward thereby allowing whatever overspray to shoot past the firewall top edge and not on the firewall. Just a thought.

Mike

[BillOhio]

I tried something similar to what Mike did and got this done. I got a detail gun at harbor freight that does a decent job. I can turn the gun down enough that it took 2 passes to get enough on the edge.  I wonder on the cars I have seen with white overspray, if they just had a poor job of blackout.

[HawkX66]

I tried something similar to what Mike did and got this done. I got a detail gun at harbor freight that does a decent job. I can turn the gun down enough that it took 2 passes to get enough on the edge.  I wonder on the cars I have seen with white overspray, if they just had a poor job of blackout.

That looks really good Bill. That's what I'm going to go for on mine. I have a couple detail guns that I'll try out.

[BillOhio]

Thanks Dave. heres what I did first. I let this dry long enough that I could lay paper across the top and taped to the fenders. the paper was right to the edge of the corner. Then I took the black and started at the bottom and worked up. when I got to the seam I watched I didn't get too close to the corner. then turned gun down until I barely put anything out. I did hold the gun toward the ground so I didnt mess up right off and had the air down but you dont want so little air it isnt atomizing.  I dont have a real steady hand but when the gun was on such low volume, I could hit it with a couple passes to make it even. whats nice is you can practice how much your putting on toward the bottom to get a feel for it.

[HawkX66]

Thanks Dave. heres what I did first. I let this dry long enough that I could lay paper across the top and taped to the fenders. the paper was right to the edge of the corner. Then I took the black and started at the bottom and worked up. when I got to the seam I watched I didn't get too close to the corner. then turned gun down until I barely put anything out. I did hold the gun toward the ground so I didnt mess up right off and had the air down but you dont want so little air it isnt atomizing.  I dont have a real steady hand but when the gun was on such low volume, I could hit it with a couple passes to make it even. whats nice is you can practice how much your putting on toward the bottom to get a feel for it.

Nice, thanks. I'm going to have to sand down some of my firewall and cowl and spray the rest of the car HO first. I sprayed the firewall backwards. I should have sprayed color and then sprayed the firewall, but I wanted the firewall painted. It shouldn't be a big deal though.

[BillOhio]

I did the underneath and cowl of mine than had a real painter do the body! So I was backward too. You could cover the firewall and be fine.

[HawkX66]

I did the underneath and cowl of mine than had a real painter do the body! So I was backward too. You could cover the firewall and be fine.

Perfect. Thanks.

[X33RS]

Actually SgtHawk, it may sound backwards to some, but I prefer to do the cowl and bottom of the car first for a few reasons. 

One, If I painted the car first, then I'm bagging the entire car to protect it from overspray while painting the bottom and cowl.  While not a big deal it's more time consuming and tedious.

Second, I prefer to have the cowl and bottom done first so that when I'm painting the color on the body I can duplicate the body color spray patterns on the floors when the lower rockers are shot that you usually see on most original or correct cars (if that's what the customer wants, and if it's correct for the particular car in question.) 

[HawkX66]

I couldn't agree more. I did it while it was up on my rotisserie and wouldn't have done any other way if I could help it. I was just saying backwards because I thought the color was shot before the firewall was blacked out. I can't remember off the top of my head what the CRG report said.

[X33RS]

Of course this depends on make and model and plant, but on original cars I've seen, and the couple of unrestored survivors that I still have here, it appears to me the black out was done on the firewall after the color was applied, just as you are thinking.

What gets tricky is what you guys are trying to accomplish at the top of the firewall, you guys did a nice job of it 
   Another way I've done it, is to shoot the body color all around the cowl and down the firewall to some degree, and shoot the rear wheel wells in body color,  then do the black out on the firewall and floors, then all I have to do is mask the firewall, shoot the body, get my overspray pattern on the floors while in the process and do the sound deadener in the rear wheel wells last.

On my Z the firewall will be a piece of cake.  Mine is a black stripe car and still original, you can see how the factory took gloss paint and sprayed the top of the cowl right over the low gloss firewall coat, so it's all black with no body color showing anywhere in that area.  It's much easier to take the gloss black and blow that in on top of the cowl as the "fade" area isn't as pronounced as say....trying to blow white in there or some other light body color.

What I have noticed on mine after a good power wash, a lot of the sound deadener around the rear wheel wells and rear frame rails blew right off and factory Frost Green is everywhere back there.  More body color than I have normally seen around that area, even up on the floors towards the gas tank, basically seeing it from behind the doors on back.   The black out floor on mine seems to start over the top of the rearend housing and then goes forward from there.   Kind of interesting.  Wish I could find other 12D unrestored Norwood cars to compare with. 

[69Z28-RS]

....
  The black out floor on mine seems to start over the top of the rearend housing and then goes forward from there.   Kind of interesting.  Wish I could find other 12D unrestored Norwood cars to compare with. 

Do you have photos of the floor above the gas tank?  What coating do you see under there..

[X33RS]

I haven't taken photo's but I could.

Floors are black from the firewall back.  Up over the rearend housing it starts to transition with some green, and another color that looks like a grey primer possibly.  Then runs into the gas tank.

From the sides there is a lot of green.  The entire rear wheel house is green, the frame rails are green on the side facing out as well as the bottom, all the way back past the factory exhaust hangers.  When you get to the very rear of the frame rail, I'd say the last 12 inches, it turns into that grey looking primer again.  No black out back there that I can see.  Even the trunk drop offs look greyish.

The rear wheel houses had a thick black sound deadener sprayed in it which is pretty normal from other cars I've seen, it was also partially on the side of the frame rails just in the wheel house area.  That's the only place I found it.  That blew off quickly with the power washer and revealed original green paint underneath.

That's the best way I could describe it.  When I get to it, the gas tank is coming out, probably take the exhaust and rearend loose.  At that point it would be easy to clean it up more and take some pictures.

[HawkX66]

....
  The black out floor on mine seems to start over the top of the rearend housing and then goes forward from there.   Kind of interesting.  Wish I could find other 12D unrestored Norwood cars to compare with. 

Do you have photos of the floor above the gas tank?  What coating do you see under there..

Hey Gary, I'd post a couple of pics of mine before I replaced the floor and trunk etc, but Photobucket has decided to crap out on me I guess. It looks like mine was pretty much all red oxide with HO over spray from the trunk pan up to the firewall and the firewall black out didn't go down to the floor seam all the way. I have a couple good pics. Once Photobucket comes back on line for me I'll try to remember to post them up for you.

[Sauron327]

The firewall blackout was applied after body color. The floorpans were originally just primer and were not topcoated black with anything. I always shoot the body color and spray the firewall blackout last, just to the floorpan seam. For cars with body color exposed at the top, choke the fan to control the amount of exposure desired.

[69Z28-RS]

I haven't taken photo's but I could.

Floors are black from the firewall back.  Up over the rearend housing it starts to transition with some green, and another color that looks like a grey primer possibly.  Then runs into the gas tank.

From the sides there is a lot of green.  The entire rear wheel house is green, the frame rails are green on the side facing out as well as the bottom, all the way back past the factory exhaust hangers.  When you get to the very rear of the frame rail, I'd say the last 12 inches, it turns into that grey looking primer again.  No black out back there that I can see.  Even the trunk drop offs look greyish.

The rear wheel houses had a thick black sound deadener sprayed in it which is pretty normal from other cars I've seen, it was also partially on the side of the frame rails just in the wheel house area.  That's the only place I found it.  That blew off quickly with the power washer and revealed original green paint underneath.

That's the best way I could describe it.  When I get to it, the gas tank is coming out, probably take the exhaust and rearend loose.  At that point it would be easy to clean it up more and take some pictures.

Thanks X33....  your original bottom paint is similar to my own.... it seems Norwood was pretty consistent.  My car was gray primer mostly under the gas tank...  The hard shiny black began at the differential forward... with lots of orange overspray on the parts hanging lower and facing to the sides of the car..

[X33RS]

I haven't taken photo's but I could.

Floors are black from the firewall back.  Up over the rearend housing it starts to transition with some green, and another color that looks like a grey primer possibly.  Then runs into the gas tank.

From the sides there is a lot of green.  The entire rear wheel house is green, the frame rails are green on the side facing out as well as the bottom, all the way back past the factory exhaust hangers.  When you get to the very rear of the frame rail, I'd say the last 12 inches, it turns into that grey looking primer again.  No black out back there that I can see.  Even the trunk drop offs look greyish.

The rear wheel houses had a thick black sound deadener sprayed in it which is pretty normal from other cars I've seen, it was also partially on the side of the frame rails just in the wheel house area.  That's the only place I found it.  That blew off quickly with the power washer and revealed original green paint underneath.

That's the best way I could describe it.  When I get to it, the gas tank is coming out, probably take the exhaust and rearend loose.  At that point it would be easy to clean it up more and take some pictures.

Thanks X33....  your original bottom paint is similar to my own.... it seems Norwood was pretty consistent.  My car was gray primer mostly under the gas tank...  The hard shiny black began at the differential forward... with lots of orange overspray on the parts hanging lower and facing to the sides of the car..

When was yours built Gary?    Based on what you're car has, I wouldn't be surprised when I pull the gas tank if mine is also grey in that area, since I'm seeing grey on the last 12" of rear frame rail and the trunk drop offs.
  My entire rear wheel houses are green, even facing up at the top, then blacked it out with sound deadener. 

Dave, is yours a Norwood or Van Nuys car?  I haven't seen a 69 with red oxide as of yet.  Mine is definitely black with no hint of red oxide anywhere, even under the black mine appears grey.    My 70 Formula is Van Nuys and it's also factory black floor pans.   The only red oxide floor I've seen on the F-body was some of the early 70's birds I've worked on.
   I wish my Z had red oxide though, I love the contrast.  Don't really care for blacked out floor pans, even on a fresh restoration it gives the impression of a spray bomb job, lol.  That's just me though.

[HawkX66]

Dave, is yours a Norwood or Van Nuys car?  I haven't seen a 69 with red oxide as of yet.  Mine is definitely black with no hint of red oxide anywhere, even under the black mine appears grey.    My 70 Formula is Van Nuys and it's also factory black floor pans.   The only red oxide floor I've seen on the F-body was some of the early 70's birds I've worked on.
   I wish my Z had red oxide though, I love the contrast.  Don't really care for blacked out floor pans, even on a fresh restoration it gives the impression of a spray bomb job, lol.  That's just me though.
 

Mine's a Norwood. The floor in the interior was definitely red oxide, but the floor bottom was probably grey with orange over spray making it look red after all the years.  The tunnel looked pretty grey.
 Come on now, spray bombed? Mine doesn't look spray bombed does it lol? Here's what it looked like originally and now:

[BillOhio]

Heres a couple before pictures. my car had alot of overspray underneath. Maybe it stuck from lack of use or just got a good blast. about the only grey I had was the tunnel and above the tank

[HawkX66]

Heres a couple before pictures. my car had alot of overspray underneath. Maybe it stuck from lack of use or just got a good blast. about the only grey I had was the tunnel and above the tank

Wow. I wish my original floors were that nice.

[BillOhio]

they were nice except above the axle. I dont know if the guy lived on or near a gravel road or what. It was pretty scaley.No holes but wasnt going to get any better. I would have thought it would have received a good coat of primer there so must have been another cause. I think it was in a pole barn and unheated garage all its life too.if not for above the axle I would have left the bottom.

[69Z28-RS]

...
When was yours built Gary?    Based on what you're car has, I wouldn't be surprised when I pull the gas tank if mine is also grey in that area, since I'm seeing grey on the last 12" of rear frame rail and the trunk drop offs.
  My entire rear wheel houses are green, even facing up at the top, then blacked it out with sound deadener. 
...
//quote

My car is a HO (high output Hugger Orange ..      and yes a couple of spots of the rear wheelhouse undercoating have come off and under it is HO body color.   My car was completed/shipped on 18Sep1969.

[cook_dw]

Granted this isnt a 69 but to show the undercarriage phospate, primer and paint overspray.

[janobyte]

they were nice except above the axle. I dont know if the guy lived on or near a gravel road or what. It was pretty scaley.No holes but wasnt going to get any better. I would have thought it would have received a good coat of primer there so must have been another cause. I think it was in a pole barn and unheated garage all its life too.if not for above the axle I would have left the bottom.

Above my tank showed "trace" at most of primer. If the car actually saw Ohio winters, (or any road salt at all) trunk pan would have been long gone. Same as you, car has always been inside storage, no rain/snow. I had no corrosion issues underneath. Under the goop found lots of trace body color under outer areas of floor pan through to outer rear frame rails. Gray trans tunnel, Red oxide rear frame rails/rear. black. Must of looked like a mess off the line-- to each there own. If you search, almost positive I posted some pics here. I'll post one last set of pics from under the car this weekend(shows trace) spring it's getting covered for good. I like Hawk's. Doing roof-rails, door glass this weekend.

[Sauron327]

Dave, your heater box cover appears top be the same satin/30% gloss as the firewall. It should be around 65-70% gloss, or gloss as it pertains to unpolished lacquer.

I've got an LOS 67 here with many runs in the tunnel, and heavy globs and drips elsewhere.

[X33RS]

I didn't want to mention that to Dave since it looks like he put a lot of time in it already, but yeah the heater box should be a little more gloss, if you're going for that sort of restoration.
  Dave, looks good, I was only poking fun at these black floors.  I've always been more of a fan of something that has some contrast, that's all.  But it won't steer me away from doing it correctly, it is what it is.

[X33RS]

...
When was yours built Gary?    Based on what you're car has, I wouldn't be surprised when I pull the gas tank if mine is also grey in that area, since I'm seeing grey on the last 12" of rear frame rail and the trunk drop offs.
  My entire rear wheel houses are green, even facing up at the top, then blacked it out with sound deadener. 
...
//quote

My car is a HO (high output Hugger Orange ..      and yes a couple of spots of the rear wheelhouse undercoating have come off and under it is HO body color.   My car was completed/shipped on 18Sep1969.

Wow Gary, our cars are almost a year apart.  I'm amazed at how similar they are.

[X33RS]

Dave, your heater box cover appears top be the same satin/30% gloss as the firewall. It should be around 65-70% gloss, or gloss as it pertains to unpolished lacquer.

I've got an LOS 67 here with many runs in the tunnel, and heavy globs and drips elsewhere.

  Different brand but same topic, I'm finishing a restoration on a 69 Mach 1 for a customer.  San Jose plant built Feb 12th.  Very sloppy application throughout the engine compartment, runs everywhere, just looks like a rushed job down the assembly line.   In comparison, my own 69 SCJ Mach 1 was also built Feb 12th (what are the chances) but at Dearborn, an unrestored survivor, engine compartment was done much better and cleaner with no visual runs.  Another interesting tidbit, San Jose used red oxide on the floors, but Dearborn used "batch paint" so there are some vast differences with identical cars built at different plants.   Interesting stuff, even if it is just a ford, lol.
 

[HawkX66]

Dave, your heater box cover appears top be the same satin/30% gloss as the firewall. It should be around 65-70% gloss, or gloss as it pertains to unpolished lacquer.

I've got an LOS 67 here with many runs in the tunnel, and heavy globs and drips elsewhere.

I didn't want to mention that to Dave since it looks like he put a lot of time in it already, but yeah the heater box should be a little more gloss, if you're going for that sort of restoration.
  Dave, looks good, I was only poking fun at these black floors.  I've always been more of a fan of something that has some contrast, that's all.  But it won't steer me away from doing it correctly, it is what it is.

Couldn't that be considered a day two item? J/K... I'll eventually go back and get some of the details like that more correct. I guess you could call it a short cut for now. I probably should correct it the next time I have the fender off though which will be when the warmer weather returns. Thanks for the reminder. I did spend some time on it, but it's nothing to squirt a coat of semi gloss over it.
Mine is going to be a driver for quite a while. Someday I might go back and do a real resto with the floors the right color etc. Most things are going to be pretty close, but some finishes/platings won't be concourse correct.

My original paint must have faded or been painted over at some point. They look pretty close:



Then again... Here's a pic after I removed it and dusted if off. Not sure if those are factory runs or not.

[X33RS]

Very cool Dave, love seeing the original stuff.   You're right, doesn't look very glossy to me in those shots.

[x77-69z28]

Bill, try painting forward from the roof towards the front of the cowl. The white will stop at the bend of the cowl.
Buddy

[firstgenaddict]