Model Specific Discussions > Trans-Am Camaros
Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
Shadow Ahead:
--- Quote from: OG69Z on October 03, 2011, 03:33:53 PM ---
--- Quote from: klvn8r on October 03, 2011, 01:26:15 PM ---I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.
klvn8r
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob
--- End quote ---
Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one
The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.
Steve
Jon Mello:
Great additional AMC information, Steve. Thanks for including it here.
Shadow Ahead:
My pleasure.
S
Shadow Ahead:
Before posting links, phots, and discussion as a group, which I'm still working on, one small correction is in order. Martin and White were Kaplan's drivers for Nascar GT. Tullius was under the Hurst banner. I'll go into all that as part of the main body of work later.
Steve
Shadow Ahead:
--- Quote from: Shadow Ahead on October 12, 2015, 08:42:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: OG69Z on October 03, 2011, 03:33:53 PM ---
--- Quote from: klvn8r on October 03, 2011, 01:26:15 PM ---I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.
klvn8r
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob
--- End quote ---
Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one
The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.
Steve
--- End quote ---
Since posting this other information has come to light, yet not all the concrete facts are together. I would like to wait until all the information that is going to come in does, before revealing the indivdual points and specific references. I do have a back-up photo study comparason between rectangular port manifolds and dogleg port manifolds, but prefer to hold off in the menawhile until some other loose ends come together.
One teaser is that Warren Prout was the fabricator of the Paschal Javelin and he also made the headers with the cast iron/cast steel manifold "spigots", Kaplan was not connected to that Javelin build.
That's is it for now. I'm chasing down a former member of Prout's crew for input and following up on some parallel research with another individual. More to come...
Steve
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