Author Topic: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)  (Read 16336 times)

Shadow Ahead

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Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« on: October 12, 2015, 08:42:39 PM »
I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.

klvn8r

I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob

Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one

The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.

Steve



« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:43:43 AM by Jon Mello »

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 03:47:11 AM »
Great additional AMC information, Steve. Thanks for including it here.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:45:16 AM by Jon Mello »
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 05:47:45 AM »
My pleasure.

S
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:45:34 AM by Jon Mello »

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 03:45:16 PM »
Before posting links, phots, and discussion as a group, which I'm still working on, one small correction is in order. Martin and White were Kaplan's drivers for Nascar GT. Tullius was under the Hurst banner. I'll go into all that as part of the main body of work later.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:45:48 AM by Jon Mello »

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 06:12:19 AM »
I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.

klvn8r

I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob

Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one

The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.

Steve





Since posting this other information has come to light, yet not all the concrete facts are together. I would like to wait until all the information that is going to come in does, before revealing the indivdual points and specific references. I do have a back-up photo study comparason between rectangular port manifolds and dogleg port manifolds, but prefer to hold off in the menawhile until some other loose ends come together.

One teaser is that Warren Prout was the fabricator of the Paschal Javelin and he also made the headers with the cast iron/cast steel manifold "spigots", Kaplan was not connected to that Javelin build.

That's is it for now. I'm chasing down a former member of Prout's crew for input and following up on some parallel research with another individual. More to come...


Steve
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:46:14 AM by Jon Mello »

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 08:17:40 PM »
Brief update.

My source never replied to repeated queries concerning the Prout Javelin headers. He has said in past blog posts that he was responsible for building the engines in '70.

But we are concerned with '69 as the engine pics are from Daytona in July of '69.

To recap, Ronnie Kaplan had dogleg port heads on the '69 TA Javelins. He apparently worked with David Potter, AMC's engine man. This would be several months before these heads showed up on production AMC's.

There are interesting photos afloat, including the headers on the Penske Javelins. Their headers don't look convential either. But, we are discussing why Prout used cast "spigots" coming out of the port and small header tubes that are are apparently welded/threaded into these castings. The question at the end of the day, is are these dogleg heads and exhaust?

Now is where the legwork comes in. Absent a telling qoute from a principal involved with designing and building these headers (Warren Prout) or someone associated, studying pictures and making comparisons to known items, as well as making dimensional comparisons will tell the story.

First, why the hybrid design? Simple, to continue exhaust port shaping outward past where the manifold joins the exhaust port. It is my understanding that even today it is next to impossble to stamp a steel tube in such a manner as to smoothly continue the exhaust port arc (a mirror) dimensionally . In simple words, you can't make a stamping hug the head like a casting can. Unless you sectioned and welded little pie slices together akin to two-stroke motorcycle GP practice from 35 years ago or as is evident by going on Ebay and looking at current Japanese aftermarket chamber makers for RZ350 Yamaha two-stroke twins, a steel header on a four-stroke is going to arc out 2 inches or so further from the exhaust port than a purpose made casting or billet formed exhaust "stub". That is because either steel tube or the stamping die can't conform to the tight arc that the optimally dimensioned casting/billet can. I am not a machinist or toolmaker so I take what they say as ground truth that the die or the tube would break in the process.

Why is this important? Because apparently the intake through to the exhaust "system should be reverse mirrors of each other, and smooth, optimally shaped flow at velocity is key. Velocity being the operative term. All those years ago Prout figured out that velocity was the name of the game (notwithstanding that the crossram intake wasn't optimal in that regard, at least not below "mid-range". Nevertheless, in '69 the crossram must have been thought to be optimal and Prout concntrated on the exhaust. Hence the small tubes. Why not just a small tube conventional header? Because conventional design small tube headers give up power up top.However, an unconventional exhaust can combine velocity and flow shape together to deliver timed volume to maintain power while delivering responsiveness. Perfect for coming off slower corners or after braking.

So, does using a cast flange mean that the head or the exhaust are dogleg port? No, it's either rectangular or dogleg. The famous "trapezoid" exhaust didn't show up until later on Penske/Traco/Nascar engines. That is entirely another discussion. For this discussion, casting clues(heads), and bolt dimensions (exhaust) will have to tell the story.

Stay tuned for results from comparing casting features of the heads and after doing some math.

Steve

« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:46:30 AM by Jon Mello »

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 04:51:13 AM »
Steve, I moved your info into it's own thread as it was not of relevance to the 1969 Wolverine T/A.  Hopefully you're understanding of that.  Do you have a picture of that Javelin engine with the odd headers that you can post for reference sake? I know I have seen it and I thought it was posted previously but I can't find it.
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015, 05:17:37 PM »
Fully understanding and very thankful that this discussion can occur at all here. I will look for the photo. At the time that I saw it I should have bookmarked it as it was somewhat related to this discussion.

Steve

Swede70

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2016, 10:13:48 PM »
Greetings,

Not entirely certain where to strictly post this, I thought I'd plug mention of a new book title in an appropriately-themed thread.  With no relation to the writer or the publisher, an online search for Sam Posey titles on Amazon.com conducted yesterday turned up what appears to be a vanity/self published record of the '68-'69 Ronnie Kaplan Engineering American Motors Trans Am effort.  Reviews are few and may simply be fluff, but all the same it seemed best to at least afford others mention of the title consistent with growing our small libraries.  Consider making an inspection of the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Cinderella-Nonetheless-Kaplans-Trans-Am-Javelins/dp/0985608153/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452636241&sr=8-1&keywords=ronnie+kaplan+javelins

Mike K./Swede70

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2016, 04:10:31 AM »
Looks like it might be a pretty decent book. Thanks for posting the link, Mike.
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 09:51:41 PM »
Jon,
A couple of '70 Penske Javelin pics with header glimpses- last two photos near bottom of page:
http://amccars.net/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1376163506

Steve

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 03:18:47 AM »
Thanks, Shadow.  These are the pics I remember of the odd header/exhaust manifold combo you were talking about earlier.
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 05:10:14 AM »
Oh, well yes these are the subject of my research, however I thought you were referring to the Penske Javelin also as having some slightly different aspects to the flange.

Steve

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 05:51:04 AM »
Regarding the Paschal Javelin headers there are some professional services I will avail myself of regarding photo analysis for some final conclusions.

In the mean, if you examine tthe photos you just reposted it is evident that some recognizable features appear.

First, the reason behind the longer manifold bolts. When looking at the bolt flanges, evident are the original flange face that has been extended. The original line that would represent the original  bolt head flat surface is evident when looking at the slight indentation approximately 5/8ths inch out from the head exhaust surface. The line that defines this original stock dimension is evident from the top view in pics number 2 and 3 above at the bottom of both photos.there is a shadow that is perpendicular to the attachment bolt plane at the indicated dimension out from the manifold to head parting line as well as a visible taper or indentation on the outside line which coincides with the longitudinal surfaces that form the outer diameter of the manifold where the bolts go through.

Later I'll send a Flickr copy of these photos with circles to indicate what I'm describing.

The question is, how is it evident these are modified versus clean sheet castings? More later with graphic references.

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2016, 02:28:21 AM »
I think the reposted photos were what I was thinking about, but maybe it has been too long and I have lost my train of thought. Entirely possible.

I'm going to guess material got added to the flange so the bolt head was moved further out. This could allow slightly more room to enlarge/change the shape of the port in the exhaust manifold/header.
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2016, 03:51:36 PM »
Yes, other details that separate dogleg castings from rectangular castings, which I'm putting together photographically, will bear this out.

I would like to find out if there are further pictures of the engine bay from this series. It appears the original photographer used a lens filter which rendered parts of the same color as very dark, so dark that there are little to no detail features in the shadows despite using Photoshop and the like to pull those features up. The cylinder heads have markings that differentiate between dogleg and non-dogleg. Without the detail in the cylinder head shadows though, my conclusions will center entirely on the exhaust manifold details.

Steve

Jon Mello

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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2018, 05:29:57 AM »
I have the whole group of photos from the Ebay sale saved. When it was posted on another forum by another AMC devotee I saved all the photos. I haven't had access to my computer since my wife and I moved and we are still organizing. However, before going into a more in depth study I can point out some immediate details that tie these headers to the ones in the black and white photos from the first page of this thread. The spigot shaped head at the top of the pipes. The seamed sections of each pipe. The numbering system on the spigots. These are definitely not Penske headers as described in the EBay ad. Penske race parts are marked with "RP", for Roger Penske. There are further characters that follow on Penske race parts from the era.
Back to the headers in the ad. I have the listing saved in "my EBay". If one looks at the 5th photo in the link, https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-PENSKE-DONAHUE-AMC-JAVELIN-TRANS-AM-303-SHORT-DECK-HEADERS/112609669098?hash=item1a380f2fea%3Ag%3Ay6IAAOSwCJxZ6Ngq&_nkw=penske+javelin&rt=nc&redirect=mobile, there is a number, "298", above the RD sequence in the same photo. A similar appearing raised set of marks are visible in the middle black and white photo on the previous page of this thread. The height of the markings are also in a very similar position relative to the safety wired bolts as the markings are positioned in photo 5 of the EBay ad. Also just visible in the b&w photo in this thread below the 3 digit number is the raised outline of at least one character below the 3 digit number, similar to the second row of characters seen in photo 5 of the ad. There are more photographic similarities between the ad and the black and white photo in this thread, but I will discuss that later.

Steve

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2018, 05:53:37 AM »
Correction - the 298 is actually part of the RD number sequence and upon closer inspection appears to be "293". Photo 5 in the ad is actually for the opposite side, the driver's side. Photos 1 and 2 are actually the same side as the middle black and white photo. The last b&w photo is the driver side, same as photo 5 in the ad. As stated before I will point out other comparisons between ad and photos posted here. My apologies for adding some confusion in my post earlier this evening.

Steve

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2018, 02:32:06 AM »
I can't take screen shots at this time. However if you look at the top EBay photo above (Jon's screenshot) either group shot of pipes, the lower middle pipe for the passenger side shows one pipe snaking under the other just like the second b&w photo shows. The b&w photo shows the outline of the R&D number on each head pipe ( evident in photo 2). The segments that each pie is made from are very evident in the top photo in Jon's screenshot and also evident in the b&w photo( number 2).
More to follow.

Steve

Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2018, 07:54:10 PM »
Another easily identifiable feature is at the top of the first color picture - the long front pipe which would be part of the driver side pipes is also seen in the last b&w photo on the previous page of this thread. That picture is easy to pick out - the alternator is at the front. The long pipe starts at the front and is on top of all the other pipes. You can easily see its length as naturally it would be longest. It is also different than many other systems where the front pipe would go down at a much sharper angle and would then become more horizontal as it goes under the other pipes. Stahl and Douglass systems on small blocks come to mind with the more common layout I just described.
 The system where the pipes are brazed to the sectioned cast iron exhaust manifold outlets as seen in the black and whites of the Warren Prout Javelin cause the pipes to hug the block and the small diameter is also apparent. I can illustrate later how small the headers are when taking a set of measurements of my own AMC free flow manifolds. The small size would favor velocity and power as the manifold spigot conforms to the dogleg outlet much more faithfully than do headers and the gases are channeled at high speed into the straight pipe run without losing velocity. The Javelin design brings to mind the "zoomies" on old top fuel dragsters.

Steve

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 02:33:55 AM »
Although "convention" is the 1970-Up AMC Exhaust Ports are known as "Dogleg Ports"
it appears to have been a mis-application of a descriptive term used in the 1970 ? SAE or AMA ? Papers
issued about the 1970 AMC 390 Engine... the phrase was used relative to the exhaust port ceiling...
No intention to buck convention, they'll always be known as Dogleg Port Heads...
The "significant" change, imho, made to the '70-up AMC Exhaust Port was to the Port Floor Contour...

Googled below Title, it's an 11-page SAE Doc, cover page says Mid-Year Meeting, May 20-24, 1968.
I have image files of 10 pages, but the 1st page is #'d page-14 ? and is titled:
"The American Motors AMX-390 V-8 Engine" ( 680493 )
by George F. Leydorf, Jr., Manager, Advanced Engine Design
and George E. Onishi, Manager, Development Department,
Advanced Engineering and Research ...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 03:13:30 AM by PHAT69AMX »

Jon Mello

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2018, 01:59:47 AM »
Interesting information and thank you for sharing.  I had just assumed the dogleg reference had something to do with the little kickout in the lower right part of the port floor as seen in View A above.
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Shadow Ahead

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2018, 02:17:06 PM »
I'm very happy that Phat has joined the forum. His contributions  are typical of his "exhaustive " 😂 research.


Steve

yenkomark

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2019, 03:26:28 AM »
  Not directly related to this topic, but I spent an hour with John Martin today , talking about American Motors and the Trans Am Javelins and his Rambler American A / Sedan

crossboss

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Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2019, 02:03:08 PM »
FWIW,
Jay Cushman of Cushman Competition in Maine has a set (or sets) of those rare T/A headers.
Just another T/A fanatic. Current lifelong projects:
1968 Olds 442 W-30
1969 Mustang Fastback w a Can-Am 494 (Boss 429)

 

anything