Author Topic: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)  (Read 10142 times)

HawkX66

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Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« on: October 27, 2015, 02:09:56 PM »
I've always said that the screws used in the vinyl top trim instead of the weld on studs were just line repairs for broken studs. I think there might be more to it. I'm getting ready to weld the studs on my roof and window sills so I'll be ready when I paint it. While I was laying out the cut panels I saved for marking the locations, I noticed the screw in studs were located in exactly the same places on either side. Seems like a pretty big coincidence. Anyone know of a real reason for using the screw in studs other than the usual line repair theory? Maybe a locator point for a welding template/fixture? I doubt they free handed welding these so they would have had to locate the weld points somehow.

Upper Qtr Pass Side:

 

Upper Qtr Driver Side:



Front hole pass side:



Front hole driver side:



Rear Trim factory hole for bolt in stud PS:



Rear Trim factory hole for bolt in stud DS:

Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

NoYenko

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 11:46:24 AM »
My car originally had studs by the seam, may be someone knocked them off during a repair. May just be the picture but I am not seeing a lot of the factory lead on the seam itself?

HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 12:05:18 PM »
My car originally had studs by the seam, may be someone knocked them off during a repair. May just be the picture but I am not seeing a lot of the factory lead on the seam itself?
There isn't any factory lead left. It was removed before cutting the orange sections out. A torch makes quick work of it. It had it's original roof and upper quarters before being replaced with new panels. The quarters had 80% replacements hacked in back in the 80s so I wanted to do full quarters. Yours had studs though huh? Must have been a coincidence on mine then. The roof molding had never been off for any repairs. It was the original vinyl and factory screw in studs. Thanks.
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

69 Zee

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2015, 03:43:25 AM »
Dave,

My top and trim studs were all removed, ground down and primed over by a previous owner.  If not to much trouble, as a reference can you tell me

1) How many trim studs in total run along the roof and sail panel (one side) and how many across the rear filler panel ?
2) Approx how far apart are they from one another on the roof/sail (starting from the roof edge) and the rear filler? (don't need to be exact just a good ballpark figure)

This will give me a general idea of factory spacing and positioning

As far as those holes, I looked inside my trunk and roof panel and mine seem to of been welded, no signs of any screwed in.

Thanks
Darrell
'69 Camaro Z/28: 03B NOR X77 Dusk Blue, white top, all orig, Under construction
'69 Firebird all original 350 all power w/ac
'70 Plymouth Superbird: One owner, Limelight green, 45K miles, all original U code

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2015, 12:51:55 PM »
Dave,

My top and trim studs were all removed, ground down and primed over by a previous owner.  If not to much trouble, as a reference can you tell me

1) How many trim studs in total run along the roof and sail panel (one side) and how many across the rear filler panel ?
2) Approx how far apart are they from one another on the roof/sail (starting from the roof edge) and the rear filler? (don't need to be exact just a good ballpark figure)

This will give me a general idea of factory spacing and positioning

As far as those holes, I looked inside my trunk and roof panel and mine seem to of been welded, no signs of any screwed in.

Thanks

D, I am in the same situation & at the same part of my resto. I think this thread may answer your ?. Hope it is of some help. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=728205
James to strangers, Bentley to friends
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 owned since 79
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HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2015, 12:55:43 PM »
No problem Darrell. I should be able to grab that for you tonight. For now, see if this will help. It's something I picked up off of someone elses thread a while back. I haven't confirmed the measurements, but they seem about right and he went through a lot of trouble documenting it. I'd say it's accurate.



Something to add... I see a lot of guys bring the vinyl right down to the pins. Here's a pic of how it should be cut. It probably wouldn't hurt to bring it down all the way though just to make sure the trim is covering the edge. I don't have any good pics handy of my trunk filler panel studs.








Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

69 Zee

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2015, 08:29:05 PM »
Dave,

I take back what I said earlier.  The more I was looking at your picks the more I kept thinking.."let me check real good one more time".  I should of used a light the first time  8)  anyway I noticed a small lump of something just above the quarter panel stiffener.  Scraped it with a putty knife and instant daylight appeared  ;D.   Instantly went to the other side and ditto.. the same !

Lots of questions for you or others.  Since my studs are already gone, can you tell me what exactly was in that hole ?  a screw of some sort ? Was it larger in diameter than the other welded on studs ?  Do you have a pic of it ? and did the those corners each have a different type of clip than the welded on studs that ran along the drip rail ?

Thanks Bentley and Dave for the earlier thread ref. and dimensions.
Darrell
'69 Camaro Z/28: 03B NOR X77 Dusk Blue, white top, all orig, Under construction
'69 Firebird all original 350 all power w/ac
'70 Plymouth Superbird: One owner, Limelight green, 45K miles, all original U code

HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2015, 11:15:31 PM »
Hey guys, don't use that sheet with measurements on it. I'm doing mine right now based on my original sheet metal and the measurements aren't jiving. Stand by for some pics measurements etc.

Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2015, 01:32:09 PM »
Dave,

I take back what I said earlier.  The more I was looking at your picks the more I kept thinking.."let me check real good one more time".  I should of used a light the first time  8)  anyway I noticed a small lump of something just above the quarter panel stiffener.  Scraped it with a putty knife and instant daylight appeared  ;D.   Instantly went to the other side and ditto.. the same !

Lots of questions for you or others.  Since my studs are already gone, can you tell me what exactly was in that hole ?  a screw of some sort ? Was it larger in diameter than the other welded on studs ?  Do you have a pic of it ? and did the those corners each have a different type of clip than the welded on studs that ran along the drip rail ?

Thanks Bentley and Dave for the earlier thread ref. and dimensions.
Don't use that measurement sheet I posted. I found a lot of differences from my originals. Pin placement can vary from one car to another, but it seemed to be excessive. I'll get some detailed measurements later. If I don't post it, PM a reminder to me.
That hole you found is for a bolt in spring clip for your trim. It's very different from the rest. This isn't a good pic, but you can get an idea of how different it is.



Last night I was able to get all my vinyl trim rivets welded on. The name of the game is precision with this. Not so much side to side, but the vertical is important. I found my digital calipers really helped out. The measuring was really the tough part. The welding wasn't bad at all. I had to adjust the placement of two rivets that I welded on and I'm glad to say it was a bit of a bear to get them off. The welder did a nice job. They won't be coming off without a good reason...

Here's a few more pics, because if there aren't pics, it didn't happen...



















Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

69Z28-RS

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 03:42:26 PM »
That clip/rivet work is looking great, Dave...  :)
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
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HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2015, 03:49:30 PM »
That clip/rivet work is looking great, Dave...  :)
Thanks Gary. Now for the three sides of the rear window and the top of the windshield channel... I want to get that done tonight so I can re-shoot the primer while it's still warm.
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

Sauron327

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 03:51:59 PM »
I have a carcass here with the original vinyl top and studs, Some studs are the screw-in type which are located in the same spots on each side.

Those measurements on that sheet are wrong because they should have taken them from a constant like a bodyline, not the driprail.

Another way to install studs is to tape the molding in place, mark each side and remove the molding. Then just mark the center and weld the studs on.

The original vinyl top here ends at the stud bases as well as the edges of the molding clips. Just because one car ends at the molding clip in all areas does not mean they were all like that. It does not matter as long as the vinyl is covered.

Sauron327

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2015, 03:54:09 PM »
Thanks Gary. Now for the three sides of the rear window and the top of the windshield channel... I want to get that done tonight so I can re-shoot the primer while it's still warm.

Did you make an adapter for the stud gun to do the window channels? Without one, the studs cannot be located properly.

HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2015, 04:24:54 PM »
I have a carcass here with the original vinyl top and studs, Some studs are the screw-in type which are located in the same spots on each side.

Those measurements on that sheet are wrong because they should have taken them from a constant like a bodyline, not the driprail.

Another way to install studs is to tape the molding in place, mark each side and remove the molding. Then just mark the center and weld the studs on.

The original vinyl top here ends at the stud bases as well as the edges of the molding clips. Just because one car ends at the molding clip in all areas does not mean they were all like that. It does not matter as long as the vinyl is covered.
Thanks Gary. Now for the three sides of the rear window and the top of the windshield channel... I want to get that done tonight so I can re-shoot the primer while it's still warm.

Did you make an adapter for the stud gun to do the window channels? Without one, the studs cannot be located properly.
I did make an adapter, so I should be good there. I hear you on the measurements. The first one he has at 1 7/8" back from the windshield channel. I came up with about 1 1/4". I know the horizontal measurements don't matter as much, but I wanted it closer to the front like my original. It will hold the end of the trim to the body better. Once I located and welded the 9 studs around each window channel and 8 across the trunk filler panel I clipped the trim in place. I then traced a pencil line around the sail panel areas of the trim. Once I did that I used the measurements from my original pieces just to get the spacing right. I know it doesn't have to be perfect, but I wanted to get it close. It all came together pretty decently. There's a lot of room for error on this. Mine appear to be completely symmetrical and fit well, so I think I nailed. Hopefully...
The more I thought about it, I decided to bring the vinyl down to the studs just in case there is any shrinkage over time. I'd be out of my mind if I went through all this and ended up seeing an edge to the vinyl top poking out of a piece of trim.
I think there must have been a rhyme or reason to the screw in studs from the factory. I doubt it was only to replace broken studs during assembly.
Thanks for the comments.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 05:39:37 PM by SgtHawkUSMC »
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02

HawkX66

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Re: Vinyl Top Trim Rivet Studs & Factory Screws (maybe more to it?)
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 05:32:21 PM »
I posted a "how to" on Camaros.net of how I modified my stud welder. This is what Scott was asking about. Here's a couple pics of my stud welder and modified tip for anyone that hasn't seen it yet... The side by side adapter allows you to weld the studs lower in the windshield channel in the correct spot.









Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02