Author Topic: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)  (Read 6321 times)

HawkX66

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73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« on: October 08, 2015, 02:40:33 PM »
I'm trying to make up a mount to mount my stock shifter to my 73 M21. What do you guys think about this shifter position for neutral? It pretty close to centered on the hole. What about the angle and height? Should the shaft as it comes up out of the shifter body be more or less perpendicular to the floor? I've looked at a bunch of pics, but the pic angles make it pretty tough to get an accurate set-up.
 I'm going to try to make a mount out of a solid block of aluminum that I have. If that doesn't work out, I'll go with steel. It doesn't seem like it'll be too bad if I can get the initial position right for measurements.





Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
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BULLITT65

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2015, 03:23:36 PM »
I guess I didn't realize a 73 housing was that much different. Couple of questions, (while I am not against making a shifter plate to make it work), if you are concerned about having it look spot on, why not just get a first gen muncie trans, or if that is to pricey, how about just a tail housing and then your shifter may line up fine?
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2015, 03:30:00 PM »
I guess I didn't realize a 73 housing was that much different. Couple of questions, (while I am not against making a shifter plate to make it work), if you are concerned about having it look spot on, why not just get a first gen muncie trans, or if that is to pricey, how about just a tail housing and then your shifter may line up fine?
The 73 is a better/stronger transmission. I was looking for a 69 M21 a while back, but after getting edjumacated about the differences, I decided to stick with the one I had. I don't believe the tail housings are interchangeable. In addition to some other differences, the 73 is about 3/4" longer overall if I'm not mistaken. Now if I could find my original trans....
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2015, 03:52:36 PM »
Does your 73 have whine in the 1st three gears? Mine is rebuilt by a pro but still whines. He said it is normal.
I haven't run it in my 69 yet, but I don't remember any significant whine when it came out of my friends Trans Am. It was originally out of a 73 Z28. It didn't have more than 1-2k miles on a pro rebuild when he swapped drive trains.
Dave
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BULLITT65

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2015, 03:59:06 PM »
good info. When did they switch to that housing and lengthen the trans?
( I have a 70 M22, that I got rebuilt years ago and I still don't have a car to run it in)
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cook_dw

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 04:08:42 PM »
I've never heard a Muncie that didnt whine at least a little..   :-\

Maybe just my experience.

Shifter handle looks ok to me.  How is it in all 5 gears?  Does it hit the console plastic tunnel?  If not then I would call it good.
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2015, 04:50:17 PM »
good info. When did they switch to that housing and lengthen the trans?
( I have a 70 M22, that I got rebuilt years ago and I still don't have a car to run it in)
71 and up are different, but there could be other variances. I'm by no means an expert lol.

I've never heard a Muncie that didnt whine at least a little..   :-\

Maybe just my experience.

Shifter handle looks ok to me.  How is it in all 5 gears?  Does it hit the console plastic tunnel?  If not then I would call it good.
When I say significant, I'm just talking an M22 whine or out of the ordinary for a 4 spd ;-) I couldn't tell you on hitting the plastic insert yet. I have to mount it first, then attack the shift rods.
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
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Stingr69

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2015, 01:03:06 PM »
70 and up Muncie is a bitch to fit. 

The '73 output shaft is bigger and longer and the input shaft is fine spline.  Supposed to be stronger but how many earlier style input or output shafts have you seen sheared off???   A steel Muncie mid-plate is probably worth considering if you drag race with good traction but most other people will never need anything like that.

The tail housing bolt pattern is not compatible with the '69 shifter mount.....Any of the available GM or aftermarket mounts will not put the shifter in the right place....driveshaft is custom and needs a different yoke....u-joints are special....I could go on and on.  You could swap side covers, levers and such to get the '69 shifter pieces to work right but the tail housing/shaft needs to be right, and it still isn't.

Tear down and rebuild the tranny with '69 parts??? probably not worth it even with a good core.

Sell the '73 tranny now and pick up a '69 tranny IMO. TOTALLY worth it.  Been there, done that.  Save yourself the headaches and cost. EVERYTHING will work and fit - nothing is custom or tricky to order out of a catalog.

BULLITT65

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2015, 02:57:43 PM »
good info Stinger.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Kelley W King

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2015, 03:25:56 PM »
The 73 I have is in a 66 GtO. The input is fine spline and the output appeared to use a 400 turbo yoke. I did not install it but the drive shaft does not look custom. I never measured the length. It also had a switch in the side cover which my rebuilder did away by installing a side cover without it. It was the guy who rebuilt my rearend that said output yoke was a 400 turbo type. I bought a complete 66 repop hurst shifter and it all just bolted on.
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2015, 03:27:10 PM »
70 and up Muncie is a bitch to fit. 

The '73 output shaft is bigger and longer and the input shaft is fine spline.  Supposed to be stronger but how many earlier style input or output shafts have you seen sheared off???   A steel Muncie mid-plate is probably worth considering if you drag race with good traction but most other people will never need anything like that.

The tail housing bolt pattern is not compatible with the '69 shifter mount.....Any of the available GM or aftermarket mounts will not put the shifter in the right place....driveshaft is custom and needs a different yoke....u-joints are special....I could go on and on.  You could swap side covers, levers and such to get the '69 shifter pieces to work right but the tail housing/shaft needs to be right, and it still isn't.

Tear down and rebuild the tranny with '69 parts??? probably not worth it even with a good core.

Sell the '73 tranny now and pick up a '69 tranny IMO. TOTALLY worth it.  Been there, done that.  Save yourself the headaches and cost. EVERYTHING will work and fit - nothing is custom or tricky to order out of a catalog.
Interesting take on it. Definitely things for me to consider. As far as the drive shaft goes though, nothing major going on there. It's just a TH400 yolk on my original drive shaft. It was shortened about 1/2" to ~49" years ago to fit a TH400. Fits fine. As far as the shifter mount pattern goes, that's what this whole thread is really about. How hard is it really to make a custom mount? As long as I get the distances measured accurately, drilling three mount holes and two shifter to mount holes shouldn't take much effort on the drill press.
Would I like to have a 69 trans and have everything plug and play? Sure, but I have an excellent condition 73 M21 all set and ready to go with a little extra effort. Everyone with 69 parts seems to think they're gold now, so to find a good 69 M21 for what I could sell my trans for isn't as easy as it used to be.
Dave
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Kelley W King

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2015, 06:14:43 PM »
If I remember right the 68 hurst shifter mounted with u bolts. My 69Z had one on it and trans guy said it was a 68 and traded me one that bolted to the  trans bracket. Mine is a no console car so I don,t if that is a factor.
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2015, 08:25:47 PM »
If I remember right the 68 hurst shifter mounted with u bolts. My 69Z had one on it and trans guy said it was a 68 and traded me one that bolted to the  trans bracket. Mine is a no console car so I don,t if that is a factor.
Console or no console won't matter. The shifter comes up in the same spot. Boy, would I like to know exactly what he traded you... I don't want to use the U bolt style either. I know Crash makes a direct bolt on set up. I know it can be done.
Dave
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BULLITT65

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2015, 08:29:27 PM »
well maybe Kelley can take a pic, or maybe there is a part number on the bracket?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2015, 10:38:25 PM »
Your best bet is getting that mount from crash. 

You can modify the aftermarket 68 mount to work.  I have a 71 M20 that I may use in my 68 at some point.  Haven't decided if I am going to buy the mount or try to make one myself, since I do have an extra 67-68 aftermarket mount to experiment with.

70 M22 was fine spline with TH400 output and a drain plug, then all from 71 up to 74 were that way. The tailhousings are not interchangeable. The 3857584 casting number tailhousing was used up into the 1970 model year and has the 27 spline output.  The 3978764 tailhousing was used starting in 1970 and up through 1974 and has the 32 spline output. So the tailhousing is the main thing to look at in the 1970 model year.

The later Muncies are a bit stronger, but not a lot.  Most will have at least somewhat of a whine.

(edit to clarify the tailhousings)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:08:25 AM by bcmiller »
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z28z11

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 12:54:47 AM »
When my buddy and I bought the '68 Z, it had a M20 '70 fine spline/400 output 661 cased Muncie on board, with the Hurst universal (plate/U-bolt) tailshaft mounted shifter base, and a Competition Plus console shifter mounted to it (car is also an original U17 option). Also on board, a Lakewood steel bellhousing, aftermarket 11" flywheel and a cut driveshaft.
Sure, it drove and shifted fine, but not original by a long shot. Since the car is a documented original, and came with an M21 originally, we started putting it back together from the flywheel out. Took some time, but the originality is worth it in my opinion. Down side - it's an original Camaro '68 M21, but not to this car (I'll post the VIN one of these days), it still uses a Hurst shifter (with a Muncie handle), but it functions like it should and still looks basically stock. We sold the '70 Muncie, bellhousing, flywheel and used the proceeds to buy the Muncie, 403 bellhousing, driveshaft and even a '68 dated 021 flywheel and the proper starter. Actually came out pretty close to even - just have to dig -

Regards,
Steve
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OG69Z

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 03:13:14 AM »
I'm trying to make up a mount to mount my stock shifter to my 73 M21.
 I'm going to try to make a mount out of a solid block of aluminum that I have.





I think you are on the right path and should be able to come up with an acceptable mount. I'll post some photos of a couple I did to give you some ideas.
The first three photos are of an original M21 in a 68Z, SCCA A/S road racer. This is a race application with straight shift rods and no console, but does show what you can do with the mount.[/URL[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/DSCF4265_zpsbt4tw5yo.jpg.html][/URL[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/DSCF4281_zpsloenzrxt.jpg.html]

This is a photo of another project with the larger output shaft. It has a slightly different offset, but the same basic idea.

Keep in mind you will need to have a relief in your mount for the main pin that protrudes out of the shifter when in reverse, that is the larger hole in the mount plate. Your solid aluminum piece should work, but the use of a thinner mount plate and spacers allows for some offset adjustment as needed.
Hope this helps!
Robert

HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 06:54:42 PM »
When my buddy and I bought the '68 Z, it had a M20 '70 fine spline/400 output 661 cased Muncie on board, with the Hurst universal (plate/U-bolt) tailshaft mounted shifter base, and a Competition Plus console shifter mounted to it (car is also an original U17 option). Also on board, a Lakewood steel bellhousing, aftermarket 11" flywheel and a cut driveshaft.
Sure, it drove and shifted fine, but not original by a long shot. Since the car is a documented original, and came with an M21 originally, we started putting it back together from the flywheel out. Took some time, but the originality is worth it in my opinion. Down side - it's an original Camaro '68 M21, but not to this car (I'll post the VIN one of these days), it still uses a Hurst shifter (with a Muncie handle), but it functions like it should and still looks basically stock. We sold the '70 Muncie, bellhousing, flywheel and used the proceeds to buy the Muncie, 403 bellhousing, driveshaft and even a '68 dated 021 flywheel and the proper starter. Actually came out pretty close to even - just have to dig -

Regards,
Steve
Thanks Steve. Originality is important to me for the most part, but with not having the original m21 I'm not sweating not having a 69 m21.

I'm trying to make up a mount to mount my stock shifter to my 73 M21.
 I'm going to try to make a mount out of a solid block of aluminum that I have.

I think you are on the right path and should be able to come up with an acceptable mount. I'll post some photos of a couple I did to give you some ideas.
The first three photos are of an original M21 in a 68Z, SCCA A/S road racer. This is a race application with straight shift rods and no console, but does show what you can do with the mount.

This is a photo of another project with the larger output shaft. It has a slightly different offset, but the same basic idea.

Keep in mind you will need to have a relief in your mount for the main pin that protrudes out of the shifter when in reverse, that is the larger hole in the mount plate. Your solid aluminum piece should work, but the use of a thinner mount plate and spacers allows for some offset adjustment as needed.
Hope this helps!
Robert
Those pics were perfect Robert and will definitely help. Other than the straight shift rods and the positioning of the shifter, that's the idea I was thinking about. Your set up looks professional and I hope I can get mine looking near as good. I'll post up some pics when I'm done.
Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2015, 12:31:31 AM »
Nothing to it! lol... Seriously though, mountain out of a mole hill. Here is what I came up with. First, a/m 69 Camaro Hurst big block shift rods fit perfectly. Second, fashioning my set up off the Hurst kit was easy. The top hole of the Hurst kit is in the right spot. The other two need to move, but it's not bad. $160 for the shift rods and the 69 bracket to modify as well as all the bushings. I'll take it! I'm still going to make a mount out of my block of aluminum just for S&Gs, but at least I have a template with measurement to go off of now.
In these pics, I just have everything mocked up. It still needs the bushings installed. They also came with the Hurst kit. You can see the driveshaft in one of the pics. It's 49" on the money with a TH400 yolk.









Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
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Stingr69

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2015, 01:26:11 PM »
Looks good. :)  Still needs to be perfect to avoid the stick hitting the plastic console tunnel when driving. 

HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2015, 01:33:59 PM »
Looks good. :)  Still needs to be perfect to avoid the stick hitting the plastic console tunnel when driving. 
Thanks. You're right about watching the position. My original plastic console tunnel has a chunk taken out from either reverse or 1st gear. It happened pre 1982 so I was definitely thinking about it with the positioning. I was surprised how far to the right of center it needed be in the neutral "rest" to be to be able to get it into reverse correctly. The console isn't bolted down so it looks like its back by 1/2" or so.

Dave
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vtfb68

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015, 10:30:47 PM »
68 hurst shifter? Must be aftermarket your refering to, no factory hurst till 69.
   VT
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vtfb68

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2015, 12:35:02 AM »
The U clamp for a F-Body Muncie 68 Hurst comp +(#2916561) is 5293 and the matching mounting bracket is # 5284,
   VT
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HawkX66

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2015, 03:07:29 PM »
Final set up with the console bolted down. I might move the shifter over 1/4" to the DS & back, but everything seems to be working well together. My 4 year old wanted to go for a cruise in it last night after he helped me install the lower valence, fender extensions and front bumper. Who was I to deny him? Imaginations are a great thing lol. 1st gear, 2nd gear... My 15 yo just wants to hear it run again. He was 8 the last time we cruised in it together.







I might use my Hurst T handle...


Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
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firstgenaddict

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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2016, 05:41:43 PM »
Hawk... what is the date on the M21? I need one for my brother's 73 RS LT Z28, the original was with the car first time we looked at it (in trunk busted cluster) then after we bought the car it was missing.
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Re: 73 M21 in 69 SS396 (Custom Shifter Mount)
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2016, 07:26:06 PM »
Hawk... what is the date on the M21? I need one for my brother's 73 RS LT Z28, the original was with the car first time we looked at it (in trunk busted cluster) then after we bought the car it was missing.
01A is my build.

That's too bad it disappeared. Here's the stamp. P3K06B. July 6, 1973 if I'm reading it correctly. Let me know if it's something you need even though it's a pretty late date for a correct replacement. I'm not emotionally attached to it as long I have something to put in its place. I'm about to put a new reverse idler gear in it as well as all new seals and gaskets. Otherwise it's in excellent condition.

Dave
69 SS396 X66 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange
Semper Fi! USMC 93-02