Author Topic: High Octane Fuel, what to use  (Read 3439 times)

dannystarr

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High Octane Fuel, what to use
« on: May 27, 2015, 08:52:48 PM »
I have access to many grades of racing fuel at the racetrack. I need to know what to run in my 302. There is 112 and 114 LEADED... Then there is 3 lower grades of UNLEADED available 91, 96, 100. Should I just run a couple gallons of the leaded 112 with every full tank of 91 at the pump and call it good?... Danny

X33RS

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Re: High Octane Fuel, what to use
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 10:35:30 PM »
Have you dyno'd it to see what it likes?  Do you drive it with pump gas?  Total timing?  Is it built to stock specs?

If you haven't had it on the dyno then it's going to be a game of experimentation at the track as to where it likes total timing, fuel used, AFR, etc....

Running 10% ethanol has a stoich of 14:1, not 14.7:1 that real gas does.  Therefore best WOT AFR is also a solid 1/2 point richer (or slightly more) for best performance. If you've dialed in the carb for local pump gas with 10% ethanol it's going to be a tad on the rich side if you start throwing in real gasoline from the pumps at the track.

If you haven't dialed in the carb for ethanol blend, then the car has been running a tad on the lean side.  Not noticable to most people in the drivability sense,  but something I prefer to pay close attention to with a wideband.

Too many variables involved to give you a straight answer.   May sound like splitting hairs but I'm always looking for that last tenth, then throw in DA and it opens another can of worms.

BULLITT65

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Re: High Octane Fuel, what to use
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2015, 01:30:12 AM »
I agree with everything you said. The wide band is a great tool, took me a bit to find a bolt to cap it once I dialed in my C/10. ( I think a MM oil pan bolt was the same exact size as the bung on the exhaust.)

I actually welded a bung in each exhaust side and had 2 gauges going to get it as close to 14.1 as possible, on both banks. It was interesting playing with the jets, which was straight forward, compared to the air fuel mix screw, which differed in rotation turns from one side to the other. BITD I would turn each screw about the amount of turns and visually look at the exhaust smoke to check if it was the right color(not to black, not to white). Not very scientific



So, what is DA?
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X33RS

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Re: High Octane Fuel, what to use
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2015, 03:47:56 AM »
Just for future reference, the bungs are 14mm.  I have a box of them here, I weld them into every car I tune for myself and customers.  In a pinch if you're looking for a plug, use a spark plug, it's the same thread.

DA is density altitude.  Weather conditions play a huge roll at the track, when figured into the actual altitude the track is at.  The car can swing a full second when you have extreme DA's from one end to the other.  Tuning for it keeps you busy.  The only way to document progress is to keep tabs on DA and use the correction factor to see if the changes you made were the right direction.
    I fight altitude here all the time living at 5,000 ft and then driving to the valley frequently at about 1,000 ft, or up higher to 7,000 +.  Then toss in the weather conditions that can swing the DA even worse.  On average summer days I can drive off the mountain from 5,000 ft to the valley and see a .4-.5 change on the wideband (going leaner).   I tend to tune each car to find a happy medium that suits the drastic elevation changes around here.  I usually shoot for just a tad on the rich side up here at 5,000 ft, about .3-.4 richer on the AFR, so that when the car goes down near sea level it may be nearly spot on or only .1-.2 lean.  So you have to "fudge" it due to the terrain we are in.
  Quadrajets are a little more forgiving because they have a more precise metering circuit.  Holleys usually get into modifying idle feed restrictors and high speed air bleeds to really fine tune it.  The HP holleys are nice with their screw in air bleeds, I can simply change high speed air bleeds in a minute on the side of the road and affect the AFR .3-.4 tenths if I want the car closer in the terrain I'm driving in. Sorry for babbling but it goes on and on, lol.

   Getting back on the original posters topic, If you have a stock spec 302 with the 30-30 cam and 11:1 compression with stock iron heads and not alot of quench, I've had good luck getting an engine like this to run on pump gas, 91 octane, as long as you keep timing under control and the AFR's are reasonable.  I don't like to push it past 36 degrees total with a controlled curve, and I run the AFR's a little fat at WOT of about 12.5 AFR to keep things safe.  Seems to work as long as engine temps are kept under control.  These engines with dinasour heads and old combustion chambers take a fair amount of ignition lead to make power.  Something in the 34 to 38 range isn't unusual, but our pump gas won't always support that, especially with iron heads.
   If you really want to push it, start leaning it out a tad, and add a couple more degrees of timing, then I personally would feel better about putting a few gallons of higher octane in the tank.  It all just really depends on your combo and it's state of tune.
   If you haven't had the engine on a dyno you won't know for sure where the engine makes best power on timing and AFR.  Each engine varies a bit.  If the engine has been rebuilt you can do things like tighten quench to help fight detonation sensitivity, and other tricks I won't get into now.   I turned a simple question into a very complicated answer so I'll stop before I get even deeper.   ;D

dannystarr

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Re: High Octane Fuel, what to use
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2015, 06:30:49 AM »
Well that is a good chunk of info. I guess I should have stated my sitch in original post.
 Car is a 55,000 mile original 302. Never rebuilt, never out of the car as far as I can tell. It is running the best it ever has with the 91, however I do here a slight ping on occasion. So I just figured a little added lead fuel would help that out. I am at 36 total advance. I do not want to put it on a dyno at this time, maybe never as the car sat for over 25 years! As I have mentioned here before, it has not been over 4,200 RPM's. It still pulls like hell, and I know I am getting out of it RIGHT when it wants to let loose some serious power. I may be being over cautious, but that's what I want to do for now. Some day I will take it to 7,200! But I don't have 10 THOUSAND dollars laying around for a rebuild.
 So I STILL need to know if I should run some leaded with the 91, and how much. Or run some unleaded 96 to help bump it up.... D

X33RS

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Re: High Octane Fuel, what to use
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015, 12:48:34 PM »
Okay, guess we aren't visiting a dragstrip then  ;D

What's the normal engine temps you see while driving the car?   If it's within reason, and you think you "might" be hearing some light detonation on 91, and since you're obviously not worried about all out performance,  I'd simply back the timing off a couple degrees and leave the 91 octane in there and save yourself some coin.  You're not running the car hard enough to worry about it.

 

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