Author Topic: 1969 SS 396 / 375 assistance (Read 13633 times)

elodnuges · « **on:** March 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM »

I recently purchased a 1969 Camaro SS 396 that does not have the original engine and transmission. Based on the information at CRG, I believe it to be an L-78. The car was built at the Los Angeles plant and delivered through Jack Head Chevrolet in Alhambra, CA. I purchased the car from a gentleman in Torrance, CA who said he got it around 1985 from a friend of the family. The family friend purchased it in the early 70’s from Merle Dupree whom he thought was the original owner. I spoke with Merle who said he never owned a brand new Camaro in his life so there is a gap in early / original owner knowledge. The car was modified early in its life for, most likely, competition drag racing or possibly road racing. The most unique modification is for override traction bars with brackets welded to the subframe rails at the kick ups and also at the tops of the differential housing tubes next to the bearing flanges. The car has a date period correct rear end with a 12 bolt posi 4:10 ratio designation stamped on one of the tubes. There were other modifications done but I wanted to put out some initial information to see if any members have input on this Camaro.

VINCE Z28 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »

Post the VIN, Kurt might have information in the DB.

elodnuges · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2015, 04:41:39 PM »

VIN # 124379L524756

VINCE Z28 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2015, 05:55:53 PM »

Are you looking for previous owners or information on what a L-78 should have parts wise?

elodnuges · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2015, 06:24:53 PM »

Past owner information to discover the racing history, verbal or document conformation as to its L78 status, location of the original engine / transmission and past mechanical and body modifications / repairs. It seems that I have a 3-4 year gap of unknown previous owners. As the car was delivered in Alhambra, CA and spent the majority of its life in Torrance, CA, I'm hoping to find someone who either worked with the owner / driver on the car when it was raced or anyone else familiar with its history. It was originally burnished brown, then orange and last painted lemans / marina blue. I used Jerry MacNeish's book on 1969 HP Camaros as well as the CRG site to come up with information as to what parts an original L78 had and everything on the car with the exception of the original engine and transmission checks out. If you have an other information regarding the documentation of an L78, I'd definitely appreciate your assistance.

vtfb68 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2015, 07:27:49 PM »

Can you post a picture of the car?
VT

VINCE Z28 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2015, 07:33:25 PM »

elodnuges, I have pictures of my former early L. A. 69 L-78. You can either email me or give me yours, so I don't take up space here with lots of pictures.

elodnuges · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2015, 08:04:56 PM »

Thank you for you offer and assistance. I am simple.... teach me. jhnoel4@sbcglobal.net

elodnuges · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2015, 08:21:50 PM »

VT - Here is a picture of my 69 SS. I have additional pictures of modifications made for racing. I don't want to post too many to take up a bunch of space. Let me know if you'd like to see anything specific.

KurtS · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2015, 04:17:57 AM »

Sorry, nothing on that VIN. Close, but that doesn't count.
What's the axle stamp?

elodnuges · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2015, 03:56:23 PM »

Kurt - pictures of housing casting number and tube stamp

69Z28-RS · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2015, 04:13:17 PM »

Your VIN indicates late Feb production completion, so a Dec rear is possibly/probably the original.

BULLITT65 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2015, 04:41:02 PM »

Good looking car, I really l like the hockey stripes.

elodnuges · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2015, 05:29:19 PM »

Any thoughts on override traction bars installed in late 60's? Picture shows the bracket and stub, welded to the frame rail and the remnants of a bracket that was cut off of the top differential tube. First time I've seen these on a Camaro, There was some info I found online regarding their use in road racing the early Camaros. Car had a full roll cage, hi volume electric fuel pump installed over the rear axle, eyelet anchor welded on the DS frame for a torque strap, trailer hitch plug installed on the DS headlight bucket and wired into the brake / turn signal circuit at the steering column and a leaf removed from the rear springs and replaced with a thin block spacer between the bottom of the spring and the retaining plate. My thoughts are that this car was drag raced but under the leaf spring traction bars were more common, the override bars have me wondering.

KurtS · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2015, 08:05:03 PM »

An early Dec axle in a late Feb car is possible. Most of the axles were much closer, but I see another Feb LOS car with that same date.

When does NCRS say the car was built?
Single fuel line? BB frame mounts and heater core?

elodnuges · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2015, 12:33:16 AM »

Kurt - NCRS shows a build date of 2/21/69. The car has a big block heater box cover, and a big block radiator shroud. 3/8" single fuel line with patina on the line and clips and bolts that fits the overall patina of the undercarriage. On the PS in front of the rear wheel where the fuel line makes two 90 degree turns, there was contact with another object that bent the line at the spiral protector and dented the floor pan. In an attempt to bend the line back so it would fit in to the 'M' shaped retaining clip, it cracked and now leaks. I purchased a replacement line from Heartbeat City Camaro parts with new clips and bolts. I hate to remove the original line and would probably have done a splice repair but seeing as the crack is under the spiral wire protector, have decided to replace it. I've taken numerous detail photos of what I believe are the original line, clips and bolts and when I remove it, I'll keep the line, clips and bolts intact and store them away.

elodnuges · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2015, 12:43:45 AM »

Kurt - I would think with the comparatively low production numbers for 1969 L78 and 4:10 gear set options and with the percentage of those made in Los Angeles making those numbers significantly lower, there could easily have been rear ends waiting for an L78 to come down the line.

67pacer · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2015, 03:30:28 AM »

Amazing, I have Vin # 124379L524755. Mine is a Fathom Green RS / Z28. NCRS says built 2/21/1969 delivered to Ed Priester Chevrolet in Montrose, CA. These two cars traveled down the assembly line together, I wonder if they left on the same auto transport to the dealers. I found my Chassis Broadcast Sheet on the top of the gas tank. Have you checked yours

elodnuges · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2015, 03:41:40 AM »

I did drop the tank but unfortunately no sheet. The insulators and foam block were both missing as well.

KurtS · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:28:18 PM »

Bill, I was wondering if you would notice.

Actually, most 4.10's went into Z28's. L78's got more of a range of axles - 3.55 to 4.10.
I'll be more specific: Most of the BV axles were much closer, but I see another Feb LOS car with that same date.

elodnuges · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2015, 06:29:37 PM »

Kurt - Thank you for the excellent information, I appreciate it. Sorry I missed the engine mount question. I believe it does have the BB mounts. Picture attached.

cook_dw · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2015, 07:07:00 PM »

I would believe that this is an L78 car from what I have seen. Also looks like the big center link too. If it isnt then someone went in to detail changing out parts that most would not have known to change. Just my $0.02

Question.

How was the fan shroud held on on the top? Also what is the radiator tag say and the rad tank codes?

elodnuges · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2015, 07:46:31 PM »

I agree with your appraisal. There is a picture further back in this posting that shows the upper bracket for the radiator shroud. The lower shroud was held in place by two clips that attach to each radiator side tank. The car currently has power steering but I question if it's original. The power steering gear assembly date is after (but not by much) the production date of the car and also the PS brackets on the engine are not accurate to a ’69 L78. The car has the longer steering arms (3954873 & 874) which I think are used mostly on manual steering cars. The pitman arm is the long 5.8 (3953227) PS version. It believe these parts are possibly a mismatch. It seems a previous owner swapped out the manual steering box for PS along with the pitman arm and relay shaft. I wonder if this was done for a steering ratio / feel that worked better for drag racing. Does anyone have information on the percentage of L78 cars that came with manual steering vs power steering? Any thoughts on my combination of steering parts?

The engine is not original; It's a 396 out of a 1969 SS Chevelle by the code on the pad, I believe. I would be nice to try to reunite it with its original car.

william · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:59:53 PM »

Quote from: KurtS on March 24, 2015, 05:28:18 PM

Bill, I was wondering if you would notice.

Actually, most 4.10's went into Z28's. L78's got more of a range of axles - 3.55 to 4.10.
I'll be more specific: Most of the BV axles were much closer, but I see another Feb LOS car with that same date.

Of course I noticed, nothing else to do just now!

As Kurt noted the CRG has found DT date anomalies aren't as unusual as once thought. I have the POP for a '69 L78 Camaro a bud had in the '80s. Final-assembled on or about June 10. Engine T0429JH, axle BV0506, trans P9C14. Engine was in stock about 35 calendar days, axle about 30 days, trans about 80 days. No FIFO in the plants back then.

Best DT anomaly I know of is a friends 06E '67 Z/28. Engine V0706MO, axle PU0320, trans P7H23. Has a Dec '66 42 amp alternator. All original!

maroman · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2015, 10:03:49 PM »

Do the front springs have tags on them with the code?

firstgenaddict · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2015, 12:49:17 AM »

If the power steering pulley is deep groove it is probably original. Check the rest of the pulleys as well. Deep grooves on solid lifter engines. Z, L78, COPO.

elodnuges · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2015, 02:21:19 AM »

Gents - Thank you for your input, definitely appreciate it. I checked the radiator and there are no tags on the tank at all. It seems to be the right size and the big block shroud fits as it should.

The springs do not have any tags but on closer inspection they seem to be a smaller wire diameter than another 69 SS 396 (350 or 325 hp, not sure as the original engine is also gone) I have. That car still had a green tag (look dark brown before cleaning) with the P/N 3955727. Also the springs in the L78 seem to have been heated at some time. Even with the car on jack stands, there are two coils on each side that almost completely touch. I don't know the dynamics of spring choice for drag racing (as I suspect the car was used for when new) but I'm thinking maybe someone installed lighter springs for better weight transfer. It appears they also removed a leaf from the rear springs as well. The car sits lower overall than stock.

None of the engine pulleys are deep groove but the engine and trans are not original to the car. I believe the engine was originally in a 1969 396 / 325 HP Chevelle. Trans is an M21.

firstgenaddict · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:07:41 PM »

Power steering pump no deep groove pulley? If it was added it makes sense... if original PS pump pulleys are not something one would normally change out.

elodnuges · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:42:03 PM »

I originally thought the relay rod (center link) was the larger diameter version and was replaced when the PS conversion occurred. Whoever did the changeover used a non-Camaro power steering pump and brackets. I measured another 69 SS 396 with PS and that relay rod diameter was 1.145”. The relay rod in my L78 is .943” which, I believe, was used for manual steering. I wonder which type of steering box, manual or power, was more prevalent in the 69 L78s. Thanks for the info on the pulleys.

firstgenaddict · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2015, 01:30:30 PM »

Manual was more prevalent on the high po cars from my observations.

69Z28-RS · « **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2015, 01:42:09 PM »

Quote from: firstgenaddict on March 26, 2015, 01:30:30 PM

Manual was more prevalent on the high po cars from my observations.

Absolutely... PS and it's pump robbed horsepower... PB was considered OK.. but not PS on a HP car!

elodnuges · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2015, 04:34:16 PM »

Thanks for the input! I was considering going back to manual and this seals the deal. Any thoughts on what the average manual steering box date code to build date (2/21/69) spread should be? Was there only one manual box ratio available for the L78s? Recommendations on sources to search / buy a date specific manual box? Thanks again..

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Author Topic: 1969 SS 396 / 375 assistance (Read 13633 times)