Is it a 1969 Z/28?

[jstanley]

I have recently purchased a 69 Camaro that I believe is a Z/28 but I am having a hard time verifying. If it is truly a z/28 then I would like to try to find the appropriate DZ 302 engine. I have it disassembled and on a rotisserie. The VIN # is 124379N507846 which according to my research is pre x code from the norwood facility. The car has 4 rear leaf springs, factory dual exhaust mounts on the frame, a 12 bolt rear end, a single fuel line to from the tank to the engine compartment, front disc brakes which all seem to be in order for a 69 Z/28. Is there some way to positively identify the chassis as a Z/28? What build date DZ 302 engine should go with the car? I am trying to determine if it makes sense to try to build the car to original specs or if I would be better off installing a crate motor. Any advice would be appreciated.;

Thanks
Jstanley

[william]

Is the OE trans with it? What is the rear axle stamping?

[BULLITT65]

Also (I am assuming you didn't get any original docs with it)

But try prior owner history, see if you can talk to some prior owners, and maybe they might have pictures or know someone else who knows the car.

As far as advice goes, before you start gathering Z parts (which are expensive), I would research as much as you can on how the car may have come originally. If it has the original trans with the vin stamped in it, that would be a good first step. Maybe you get lucky and it ends up being a Canadian car and with that it would prove it originally was a Z.

Find out about the trans, and lets see some pics of it then and now please

[RAfbody]

Where does the speedometer cable exit the firewall?

[william]

Some of the characteristics noted-speedo cable routing, disc brakes, dual exhausts-are also found on Camaro SS or were optional.

Need to know about the trans and rear axle.

[ko-lek-tor]

Some of the characteristics noted-speedo cable routing, disc brakes, dual exhausts-are also found on Camaro SS or were optional.

Need to know about the trans and rear axle.

Also have seen LM1 cars equipped like this, but fuel line and 4 leafs are definate signs of a possible Z.

[william]

The problem I have with all of the Z/28 'tells' is the information has been out there for decades. All anyone needs is an early production 4-speed Camaro SS350 [or LM1] and you're 90% of the way there-disc brakes, dual exhaust, Muncie trans. Cut out the QJ return line and you're nearly there. A wide-ratio 4-speed and 3.55 axle isn't unusual in a Z/28. Rear springs are easily changed; plenty of real Z/28s no longer have the originals. If the car has manual steering that can be a reliable indicator; SS power steering used the same box & pitman arm as a Z/28.

Even if it is a Z/28 acquiring every date-code correct part will take years and a lot of cash. Very few Z/28s produced early in the model year.

[HOT3O2]

William, What do you mean by "that if the car has manual steering can be a reliable indicator"?

Rick

[william]

Standard Z/28 equipment included fast-ratio manual steering. Chevrolet accomplished that by revising the steering linkage. The fast-ratio pitman arm is 5.75" center to center, standard is 5.25". The steering arms for fast-ratio are shorter. Manual and power pitman arms do not interchange. If the car has manual fast-ratio steering and the box is OE that's a great indicator.

But again, not all that tough to swap steering gears. Also N44 steering was an option but very rare.

[HOT3O2]

Thanks William, I learned something new today.

[william]

You're welcome.

Get Jerry MacNeish's '69 Camaro book; still has a few in stock last I heard. Still the best book on the market and I doubt he will reprint it.

[jdv69z]

Even if it is a Z/28 acquiring every date-code correct part will take years and a lot of cash. Very few Z/28s produced early in the model year.

When did Z/28 production begin to ramp up?

[william]

Interesting question with two answers. Based on about 6% of production so take it with a grain of salt.

Van Nuys produced about 3,900 '69 Z/28s. Very few September '68 but October saw a big increase to about 560. January, February and April were peak months.

Norwood produced about 16,400 '69 Z/28s. Production was low through the end of calendar year 1968 with only about 3,200 Z/28s produced. Production picked up January '69; February and May were peak production months. Production dropped off after June.

Chevrolet Zone offices notified dealers November 1968 that no more Z/28 orders would be taken until engine production was able to catch up. They must have anticipated much lower sales and needed to bring on more capacity. Remember Chevrolet only built cars to dealer orders. Most Z/28s were ordered for dealer stock.

[jstanley]

I appreciate all of the advice, I took Williams and bought Jerry's book. I looked at the rear end #3894860NF and the axle code is BL1130G2. I am trying to find part numbers for the springs does anyone know where they are located? I did not get the original engine or transmission with the car so I can't use those to identify the rest of the car. As far as documentation, I only have the title. The steering is manual and the pittman arm is correct for a Z/28.

[BULLITT65]

I haven't seen a ratio BL =3.07 in a Z/28 before. Maybe Kurt could verify if there have been any other Z cars with that ratio?

[KurtS]

I think it's a Z, but with the axle being replaced too (Nov axle in a Sept car), proof is minimal.

[BULLITT65]

Good catch, I didn't realize it was that early of a car.

[william]

You did ask for opinions so here's mine: make a hot rod out of it.

Just putting 5 dated AD wheels on it [IF you can find them] with repro E70s will approach $4000. Any 'date correct' engine you find will have some other VIN on it. I think you will have more fun and enjoyment doing a PT or Day 2 build and in the long run it may be more valuable. I've seen a number of them do very well at auction.

What we used to tell people at the business 25 years ago remains true. If you have your heart set on a numbers-matching Z/28 that's what you should buy. You really can't piece one together.

[BULLITT65]

I agree with William for the most part. Build the car you want, or get this car together and sell it to purchase the car you want.

[janobyte]

3:07 would have to be a bit of a slug behind a 302, even with a steeper 1st...have to be a "granny" gear.

[z28z11]

Out of curiousity, what color was the car ? Any remnants of the top cowl painting ? Depending on the stripe color, might be another clue if you can find the beginning paint layer.

I looked at a shell years ago that the then-owner didn't have clue as to what the car was built as (missing drivetrain except for the 12 bolt and four leafs), disc brakes, dual exhaust plate, single 3/8" fuel line, correct Pitman and Muncie cable routing, and an all-white cowl top. Car got away before I could buy it, obviously an early non-X code (late November) Z if I've ever seen one. Hate the ones that get away (when the stars just don't line up !).

Regards,
Steve

[jstanley]

The car according to the cowl tag was garnet red with a red interior and a white vinyl top, the car is currently red with the stripes. I am planning to sand the trunk lid and hood to see if I can identify the stripes on the original paint.

[x77-69z28]

Is it a Norwood car. Look for a crayon mark behind the rear seat bulkhead. Should find the X code there.

[jdv69z]

I second that on the X code behind the seat. My Oct 68 build Z has it. If it was originally red with white vinyl, the stripes would be white. just so happens to be what my Z is, red with white stripes and white vinyl. I've not seen another 69 Z this combination. Mine's also RS.

[KurtS]

If you do go the original route, I'd note William's advise and not sweat the details. 15x7 rally's are cheap, correct AD's are not. Etc.

[BULLITT65]

I think the 15" FW wheels are a close match. I have seen sets (of 4) for about 200. If you continue to scout around you could gather other parts that look or perform similar to the original Z stuff and have a fun car.

[69Z28-RS]

I think the 15" FW wheels are a close match. I have seen sets for about 200. If you continue to scout around you could gather other parts that look or perform similar to the original Z stuff and have a fun car.

I've bought 15x7 FW wheels in pairs for as little $20-25 each at swap meets the past couple of years...  you just have to look and scrounge..   ($40-50 each is probably closer to the 'market price' - what most people ask for them as bare wheels).

Here is a link from past CRG discussions which itemizes the exact differences between YH and FW wheels.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10686.0

[X33RS]

What I haven't seen mentioned is when the AD wheels were phased out and the YH wheels started to appear??  It's not mentioned in the other thread either and even Jerry's book doesn't mention this point other than saying AD wheels are early production, but no time frame given, not even a rough estimate :shrug:

[69Z28-RS]

I seem to remember a discussion that mi- December is the time of the last ADs, or when the switch happened.  I think this is the link I recall:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7767.msg54018#msg54018

I had a 'Y 1 8 10 24 AD' wheel which was one of the delivered wheels on a friend's '69 Z28 that he bought off the lot in Dec '68 (I don't have the VIN of his car so I don't know when it was built).  I've also seen references to YH wheels with a date of 17 Dec...  Maybe someone else has more or better information.

[X33RS]

Thanks, December narrows it down for me.  These December cars are a pain, right when alot of changes happened it appears.
    Probably safe to assume a 4th week of Dec Norwood car would have YH's on it.   Oddly I just did a search and the only thread that pops up on AD wheels is the one we are talking in, lol,  but I'm not computer savy either.

[69Z28-RS]

Thanks, December narrows it down for me.  These December cars are a pain, right when alot of changes happened it appears.
    Probably safe to assume a 4th week of Dec Norwood car would have YH's on it.   Oddly I just did a search and the only thread that pops up on AD wheels is the one we are talking in, lol,  but I'm not computer savy either.

I updated my prior post with another link which might help.

Re your 'December car' being a pain re the changes... OR you could have a LATE '69 car when many of the parts were being changed to '70 model year production..      'running changes' are a fact of life in manufacturing whether it's a '69 Camaro, other car, or whatever...  It adds a lot of fun to our searches for information and parts though..   Right? 

[X33RS]

Yeah, it's all good 

[jstanley]

I thank all of you gentlemen for your assistance, it appears that I have YH wheels on the back and FW on the front. I sanded where the original stripe should be between the trunk lid and rear window and do not find evidence of an original stripe. I don't know what I have, maybe a SS Camaro 350?  In any case, someone went to great lengths to make it a Z. I think I will take Williams advice and build a hot rod....any input on a crate motor that would be most desirable in the build?

[BULLITT65]

Did you check behind the rear seat for the X?

[jdv69z]

I've heard wheels were changed from AD to YH as a result of the availability of the 4 wheel disc brake option. When did that option begin? My impression has been around Jan 69, and also that's about the time the wheels changed over. How long would it have taken for a YH wheel with a 17 Dec manufacture date to make it to the assembly line? The assembly plant would also have to be notified so that the broadcast sheet could be revised from AD to YH correct? Any broadcast sheets out there from this time frame?

[jstanley]

I did check behind the seat but I don't see any crayon marks, but if they weren't putting the x code on the cowl tag yet would they write it behind the seat?

[BULLITT65]

I think Jimmy V said his car is a pre X code, and has it behind the seat.

[janobyte]

I thank all of you gentlemen for your assistance, it appears that I have YH wheels on the back and FW on the front. I sanded where the original stripe should be between the trunk lid and rear window and do not find evidence of an original stripe. I don't know what I have, maybe a SS Camaro 350?  In any case, someone went to great lengths to make it a Z. I think I will take Williams advice and build a hot rod....any input on a crate motor that would be most desirable in the build?

Go ahead and give a little more detail for your application: street/strip, cruising only ,daily driver ? do you want to retain drive line you have in it? Personally I'm a fan of bigger cube small blocks, I ran a 400 in the Z for years ,ported and polished 2.02's, high rise intake, cam card at home, but I can give you the specs later. Stump puller at the bottom end ,screamed at top. 4.88's were to steep for the street. With the 350 trans, 3.73's would have been the better street/strip set up. Block did duty in a race only Chevelle, then I bought it ,now it's in our Anglia ,real mule. Dollar for dollar I think you cant go wrong with a 383 crate...match your converter to the cam. I'm sure many opinions on this.

[janobyte]

Actually for the proper convertor(stall speed) you get with somebody like Transmission Specialties, answer their questions ,and they will build you what you need ,good price ,warranty ,and if you do race it ,you can send it back for inspections (for a fee). Very stout unit. They stand behind their product.

[bcmiller]

I did check behind the seat but I don't see any crayon marks, but if they weren't putting the x code on the cowl tag yet would they write it behind the seat?

I have personally seen 2 pre X code cars that had the marks behind the rear seat. One car was in the 9N546xxx vicinity.

I don't know if this car would have that, since it is so early.

[6667ss138]

I did check behind the seat but I don't see any crayon marks, but if they weren't putting the x code on the cowl tag yet would they write it behind the seat?

Yes, Jerry M. found it on my brothers early pre X coded Z when he had it inspected a couple years ago. Put a very bright light on and maybe a use little soapy wet rag to lightly clean the area. If that area has never been blasted, repainted or replaced it could be there. I watched Jerry do it. You have to look very hard on his car to see it but it is there.

Edit: Bryon could be right, I think my brothers car is a Oct. build if I remember correctly.

[Vince]

I've heard wheels were changed from AD to YH as a result of the availability of the 4 wheel disc brake option. When did that option begin? My impression has been around Jan 69, and also that's about the time the wheels changed over. How long would it have taken for a YH wheel with a 17 Dec manufacture date to make it to the assembly line? The assembly plant would also have to be notified so that the broadcast sheet could be revised from AD to YH correct? Any broadcast sheets out there from this time frame?

My Van Nuys 1969 Z with an 01C build date has YH identifying the wheels on the chassis broadcast sheet. 

[HOT3O2]

The last "AD" rims were dated Oct. 24 (68). The first "YH" rims were dated around Dec.17 (68).

[firstgenaddict]

Some are written in yellow grease pencil and when combined with the yellow contact cement used to glue the package tray lip down are difficult to make out.

This is from a 10D TT early Norwood build. The X is to the left of the indent and the 7 is to the right... I left all of this intact and as is for any future identification being an early car with no X TT. I felt that was the X tag for the car.



A ss 350 with black trimmed interior would have X5 or X1. Red interior R5 R1 and so on and so forth through out the interior trim colors...

[BULLITT65]

wow, that is wild. I would have missed it altogether until I looked real close at it. Good eyes James

[jdv69z]

I think Jimmy V said his car is a pre X code, and has it behind the seat.

Here's my crayon mark behind the seat; Oct 68 build 10B; VIN 516355. For a long time I too was under the impression that only cars with the X code on the trim tag had the mark behind the seat. Now I believe it was done from the start of production. The mark supposedly identified the build to line workers even before the trim tag was attached to the body.

[KurtS]

My Z has it written in the center of the rear bulkhead.
I looked for a long time, but not in the right place!

[jstanley]

Well gentlemen here is the latest update, as I stated earlier I sanded down an area by the trunk to look for original stripes and found grey primer over zinc chromate and then paint. I surmised that there were no original stripes however it appears someone repainted the car when they removed the vinyl top....inconclusive ID from the paint. I looked at the rear seat bulkhead a little closer and found what appears to be a yellow 7 (photo attached) I cant make out anything else.

[jdv69z]

That looks like the crayon mark; it's the correct location.

[jstanley]

I thought I would post a few more photos

[jstanley]

Here are the Pics

[jstanley]

more pics

[jstanley]

more pics

[jdv69z]

 Is there a tach in the dash? Wouldn't a tach have come with the gauges in the console if factory?

[X33RS]

From what I've seen, you can have a tach without a console, and the fuel gauge would then be front and center (where you usually see a clock)
 Very unusual setup.

If you ordered gauges/console, you got the clock front and center, and the dash tach.  Or it could be like mine, no tach, no console, no clock.  Just a speedo and a fuel gauge.  I don't see alot like this either, but I suspect not because it's rare, but because most people convert them.

[69Z28-RS]

The options, and the cars themselves, seem 'cheap' nowadays, but back then.. most of the buyers for muscle cars and performance cars were young men, and $3000 was a lot of money!   When you're struggling just to get a down payment for the car, then a few hundred $$ for what today seems like 'have to have options'... were considered 'unnecessary!      Heavily options Z28's and the like were in the minority and pretty rare when the cars were new..    stripped down models were the mean!

[BULLITT65]

I agree the only "frills" my car had, (that weren't performance minded)  was the AM radio, and some cars didn't even have that!

[william]

From what I've seen, you can have a tach without a console, and the fuel gauge would then be front and center (where you usually see a clock)
 Very unusual setup.

If you ordered gauges/console, you got the clock front and center, and the dash tach.  Or it could be like mine, no tach, no console, no clock.  Just a speedo and a fuel gauge.  I don't see alot like this either, but I suspect not because it's rare, but because most people convert them.

The U16 Tachometer option became available later in the model year; earliest cars appeared around May '69. Chevrolet mandated U16 or U17 [gauges] around January '69 but for some reason it didn't take effect until May. U16 is rare; only 1,410 cars built with it. Many Z/28s built without either.

[X33RS]

That is excellent information William.  That explains perfectly why mine would be optioned the way it is.  I always thought it was odd to have an RS with deluxe houndstooth, and then have no console, no tach, no gauges.  I had no idea the tach and gauges weren't available until late (May 69) in the production run.  You'd sure never guess that looking at all the 69Z's today, lol.

So if I'm understanding your comment correctly, any 69Z built before May 69 couldn't possibly have a console/gauges and/or tach??  I think I understand the U16 tach only option as being implimented in May 69, before that it was only paired up with the console gauge option?

I bet that just confused everyone, I confused myself  

Edit: re-reading and thinking, I think I understand your post as console/gauges being mandated in May 69 as meaning "standard equipment" and before that it was optional equipment.  The U16 tach only option became available in May at that time.  So before all this, a console/gauge package which included a tach was available as an option?   Correct me if I'm wrong on this...

[jdv69z]

Mine's no tach. no gauges. Does have console.

[william]

Yup; any 8 cylinder Camaro could be ordered with U17 [required D55] and many Z/28s were. But they added $150 to the car. Z/28 required J52 power front discs [$64.25] and a 4-speed transmission [$195.40]. Positraction was neither standard or required; another $42.15. Throw in a radio [$61.10] spoilers [$32.65] and the cheapest Z/28 listed around $3,700.

May not sound like much today but it was at that time. Dealers had to be careful what they stocked. That's why most were low option.

[L78 steve]

That is excellent information William.  That explains perfectly why mine would be optioned the way it is.  I always thought it was odd to have an RS with deluxe houndstooth, and then have no console, no tach, no gauges.  I had no idea the tach and gauges weren't available until late (May 69) in the production run.  You'd sure never guess that looking at all the 69Z's today, lol.

So if I'm understanding your comment correctly, any 69Z built before May 69 couldn't possibly have a console/gauges and/or tach??  I think I understand the U16 tach only option as being implimented in May 69, before that it was only paired up with the console gauge option?

I bet that just confused everyone, I confused myself  

Edit: re-reading and thinking, I think I understand your post as console/gauges being mandated in May 69 as meaning "standard equipment" and before that it was optional equipment.  The U16 tach only option became available in May at that time.  So before all this, a console/gauge package which included a tach was available as an option?   Correct me if I'm wrong on this...

That is excellent information William.  That explains perfectly why mine would be optioned the way it is.  I always thought it was odd to have an RS with deluxe houndstooth, and then have no console, no tach, no gauges.  I had no idea the tach and gauges weren't available until late (May 69) in the production run.  You'd sure never guess that looking at all the 69Z's today, lol.

So if I'm understanding your comment correctly, any 69Z built before May 69 couldn't possibly have a console/gauges and/or tach??  I think I understand the U16 tach only option as being implimented in May 69, before that it was only paired up with the console gauge option?

I bet that just confused everyone, I confused myself  

Edit: re-reading and thinking, I think I understand your post as console/gauges being mandated in May 69 as meaning "standard equipment" and before that it was optional equipment.  The U16 tach only option became available in May at that time.  So before all this, a console/gauge package which included a tach was available as an option?   Correct me if I'm wrong on this...

Tach was included May on, optional prior. Console and gauges were always an option.

[william]

A confusion in terms.

A tachometer or special instrumentation was a mandatory extra-cost option when ordering a Z/28 as of January 2, 1969. For some reason it did not take effect until May. Jerry's '69 book has a pic of the window sticker for Z/28 N709540, one of the last built. It lists U16 at $52.70 and Z/28 at $522.40.

[X33RS]

Thanks guys for setting me straight on that.  Much appreciated.

[BULLITT65]

Yup; any 8 cylinder Camaro could be ordered with U17 [required D55] and many Z/28s were. But they added $150 to the car. Z/28 required J52 power front discs [$64.25] and a 4-speed transmission [$195.40]. Positraction was neither standard or required; another $42.15. Throw in a radio [$61.10] spoilers [$32.65] and the cheapest Z/28 listed around $3,700.

May not sound like much today but it was at that time. Dealers had to be careful what they stocked. That's why most were low option.

Of the 1410 figure you stated that had the U16 option, is that just the 69 Z/28, or is that all 1969 camaros?

My car was very low on the options list 08C D80, only options- special interior group, U16, ZL2 hood, tinted glass, and Am radio, (power brakes, M21 & 3.73 Posi), out the door for $3430 !

What a deal!

[william]

That would be all 1969 Camaros ordered with U16.