Author Topic: This Pic got me thinking..  (Read 12200 times)

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
This Pic got me thinking..
« on: December 02, 2014, 03:21:21 PM »
Yeah I know; scary when that happens.   ::)    By this picture it has a upper cowl painted all white which would make it seem like a LOS car.  But because there are no known LOS cars that have the "PBT" would this be a NOR car with an entire cowl painted or a LOS with "PBT"? 


Petes L48

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2014, 05:14:42 PM »
Not saying it's the case here, but sometimes the semi flat black will reflect enough light to where it almost appears white in older b/w pictures, especially if a flash was used and depending on angles.  Sort of an optical illusion.

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5778
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2014, 05:16:34 PM »
Not saying it's the case here, but sometimes the semi flat black will reflect enough light to where it almost appears white in older b/w pictures, especially if a flash was used and depending on angles.  Sort of an optical illusion.

I totally agree with Pete... one cannot always believe what their eyes tell them when it comes to light, color, reflections, etc...  specular reflections can definitely fool your eyes re color/shade.
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 05:36:44 PM »
I agree with both of what you guys are saying.  But I will respectfully disagree that this is the case with this photo.  You can see the flash point by the blower motor wire shadow along with the firewall whiteout from the flash just to the left.  Also note that the blower motor wire is on the bottom of the box like the 67 and later 68's have them on the top.


Edit:

There is something else I can not make out what is.  Looks like a bracket of some sort just in front of the heater box.  I thought it was part of the hood hinge but you can see it just to the left.

BULLITT65

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4476
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 06:09:16 PM »
Well one of the things I notice, is while agree the flash point is above the heater box, you will notice as you get farther away from the flash point along the upper cowl it gets less and less white, and by the time you reach the wiper motor it turns into a light overspray. Vs the passenger side where it is very bright white (very close to the flash), and even the rubber seal looks grey with a white (flash) stripe running along it.
This appears to be a 68 Z from the pic, is there no such examples of 68's with the cowl having any white overspray?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 07:15:33 PM »
This appears to be a 68 Z from the pic, is there no such examples of 68's with the cowl having any white overspray?

There are plenty of examples of LOS Z cars.  My comment was more directed towards LOS cars not getting the "PBT" stamps vs NOR did and LOS cars had the entire cowl painted stripe color vs NOR only doing the pockets under the grates in the cowl panel.  This car seems to have the entire cowl painted stripe color and it has the "PBT" stamps.

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4010
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 07:40:23 PM »
Darrell, where is the picture from?  Any history on the picture?

I am going to take a bit of time and look over things closely to see if I can add any thoughts.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 07:45:08 PM »
Ed Bertrand - as for before that I am uncertain.

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4010
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2014, 07:52:28 PM »
Based on the CT on the Fuel Mixture Control Valve - I believe it is an early 1968 Z28.
See the table here.
http://www.camaros.org/emissions.shtml#valves

And if that is the case, I am bit surprised there is a lack of white paint on the trim tag.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 08:03:24 PM »
Based on the CT on the Fuel Mixture Control Valve - I believe it is an early 1968 Z28.
See the table here.
http://www.camaros.org/emissions.shtml#valves

And if that is the case, I am bit surprised there is a lack of white paint on the trim tag.


I realized the CT on the valve.  The lack of white on the tag makes me wonder if it is a LOS car.  & IF that is the case then when did they stop using the PBT stamps?

1968RSZ28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6188
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 09:00:15 PM »
Darrell, where is the picture from?  Any history on the picture?

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10034.msg92396#msg92396

Paul

P.S. - Where else have I seen that picture?  ;)

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5884
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 09:12:21 PM »
My NOR 69 Z with white stripes looks the same. One side of the cowl is mostly white, the other side is partly white.
Kurt S
CRG

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4010
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 10:31:10 PM »
Pic is in another thread.  I would still like to know more details about pic and possible build month/week of the car.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10034.0;all

Details of the pic
It looks like it was posted on Camaros.net back in 2007.  
169Indy wrote: "I have a GM photo, copy (SCANNED) of the 68 Z28 engine bay photo that was printed in the Camaro Enthusiast a few years ago and rarely see people reference it with regards to details. Appears to be a Norwood car as evidence by the PTB stampings."
Ed Bertrand posted the picture for 169Indy.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 11:41:40 PM »
My NOR 69 Z with white stripes looks the same. One side of the cowl is mostly white, the other side is partly white.

How many NOR Z cars (also include 69 IPCs) have you seen with the entire cowl painted stripe color?

z28z11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2014, 03:05:02 AM »
Mine is - side to side from the pinch welds on the cowl tulips, back to front right down to the edge of the blend line on the firewall. White as it can be.

The pic you posted shows the dumdum around the washer nozzles as black, the surrounding area is definitely white - my pics are pretty sorry (taken for a different post), but show the white areas fairly well.

Just my opinion -
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

L78racer

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 02:18:41 PM »
There is something else I can not make out what is.  Looks like a bracket of some sort just in front of the heater box.  I thought it was part of the hood hinge but you can see it just to the left.

could that be a splash apron piece that is askew?
Paul

maroman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1067
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2014, 03:23:17 PM »
I'm not completely up to speed on the PTB stamps. I understood them to be a rubber type stamp, not a stencil. So how does the P on the passenger side get backwards?
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2014, 03:29:01 PM »
I'm not completely up to speed on the PTB stamps. I understood them to be a rubber type stamp, not a stencil. So how does the P on the passenger side get backwards?

Excellent question!

Dusk Blue Z

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2014, 03:53:45 PM »
Maybe an upside down B with light amount of ink?

Mike
Mike

1969 Z/28 Legends Certified
1969 Z-10 Under Construction

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2014, 03:59:20 PM »
Maybe an upside down B with light amount of ink?

Mike

That could be a possibility but if you look just above the hood hinge spring you will see the B.  Plus look at the P & B on the other side.  You would be able to tell if it were the case.  At least I would think anyways.

could that be a splash apron piece that is askew?

Not sure but it looks metal to me..??..

jdv69z

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
  • 69 RS Z/28 52E
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2014, 05:00:04 PM »
I could be totally all wet, but on the fan shroud I see writing that appears to me to be a "T" with 12 8 67 below that, and -20 below that? Maybe I'm dreaming?
Jimmy V.

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2014, 05:22:05 PM »
I could be totally all wet, but on the fan shroud I see writing that appears to me to be a "T" with 12 8 67 below that, and -20 below that? Maybe I'm dreaming?


Good eye!

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5884
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2014, 08:03:56 PM »
My NOR 69 Z with white stripes looks the same. One side of the cowl is mostly white, the other side is partly white.

How many NOR Z cars (also include 69 IPCs) have you seen with the entire cowl painted stripe color?
Entire - not many. Most of the cowl - quite a few. No IPC's though.
I thought I posted these before. Original owner on the yellow car.
The green one is not my Z, but it's really close. Mine has a bit more white on the driver's side.
Kurt S
CRG

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5884
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2014, 08:05:22 PM »
I've seen the backward P before. It must have been a unique stamp.
Kurt S
CRG

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2014, 08:11:05 PM »
Is the pic of the green Z an early 69 NOR or a LOS?  Hard to see in the pic.   Also assuming that both cars were originally flat hood cars as well?

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2882
  • caretaker of 1971 LT1's 11130 & 21783
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 08:38:50 PM »
Flat hoods had nothing to do with the overspray in the wiper cowl.

1969 Z28 Norwood 10D Early Parked in 1973.









James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5884
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2014, 08:55:24 PM »
Hood shouldn't matter. Date doesn't matter.
Yellow - 05A
Green - early, 09C  
Mine is 01B. It's the inverse of the other green car (more stripe paint on the driver's side, less on pass side). Fathom green, later shot red then black. White stripes.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:48:27 AM by KurtS »
Kurt S
CRG

cook_dw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3981
    • View Profile
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 09:01:23 PM »
I realize the hood has nothing to do with this.  I was merely making an observation.

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2882
  • caretaker of 1971 LT1's 11130 & 21783
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2014, 10:00:11 PM »
Ed Montini did a LOW MILE (1100 miles) late Norwood car built after Body Number reset which was in Chicago last Nov, it had heavy firewall overspray too. Ed told me he debated whether or not to restore it as it was photographed on disassembly but ultimately decided to do it as it was built.
 




It had the interlocking redesigned drivers motor mount as well.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

BillOhio

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
    • View Profile
    • photobucket
Re: This Pic got me thinking..
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 06:03:14 PM »
My 03D is all white.
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1970 Z28 M22 4:10 bought from original owner
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible