Author Topic: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?  (Read 22550 times)

barsteel

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New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« on: November 17, 2014, 04:17:07 AM »
Hello!

This is my first posting.  I’ve loved old cars since I was young, and have owned over 10 in the past 12 years, and have successfully done a fair amount of work to all of them, including engine rebuilds, rewires, tranny rebuilds, tranny and rear end swaps, front end rebuilds, etc.

A few months ago I realized that I had too many cars that I “kinda” liked, but rarely drove.  I decided that it was time to go after the car I’d wanted since high school, and that was a 1st gen Camaro.  I sold 3 of my cars, a ’41 Chevy Coupe, a ’53 Chevy ½ ton 5 window, and a ’52 Plymouth and started looking, and that’s why I’m posting.

I was chatting with one of the fathers from my daughter’s soccer team, and the subject of cars came up.  Turns out that his father passed away a few years ago, he was now trying to liquidate some of his father’s collection, and one of those cars was a ’68 big block Super Sport Camaro 4spd w/a posi rear.  It was former Barrett-Jackson car sold in ’08.  If you search on the VIN (below), you’ll find the auction.

Long story short, I did about 4 hours or research on what to look for, and just went to see the car.  It’s nice…I’m interested, but, because it’s a 68 that won’t have any code on the cowl tag to ID is as an SS, I want to make absolutely sure it’s a real SS, at least to the extent that I can.  Below is what I’ve got, and I’m looking for opinions…real SS or not?  Worth it or not?  Asking price will be in the high $20s.

Vin:  124378N410626 – Norwood build, original V8 car

Cowl tag (pictured) – First week of April build, standard black bucket seats, lemans blue

Engine code T0304MY – NON original 396/325HP March 4 build, automatic car – other number sequence does NOT match the VIN.

Car is advertised as having a 375HP 396 – and it DOES have a factory aluminum intake manifold with the correct snowflake casting, so it may have been built to 375HP specs

Carb is a Holley 4bbl with mechanical secondaries – air horn is marked LIST 4779-2 2126

Block casting # 3935440 (hard to read, but the last 3 numbers were definitely 440)

Tranny not original either - Borg-Warner with a 5-30-79 casting date on it, the sequence MLT1198A.  Casting # is 1304065908.  Also says WG Div  FC 4.  Driver’s side pad is stamped with F2992.  Most likely a Super T-10.

There IS a reinforcement ring around the shifter hole on the underside of the floor indicating that the car originally had a floor shifter hole

Rear end is a 12 bolt, code is BT032502, with an E underneath – which IDs it as a 3.55 Eaton posi unit from March 25, which seems to jive with the VIN date.  I don’t know what the “02” at the end stands for, although the zero could have been a 6 or a G, very hard to read.

Rear springs have 5 leaves.

Driver’s side motor mount is taller than the pass side motor mount,  2” vs. 1 3/8 as close as I could measure, indicating big block engine mounts.  The don’t appear to have been replaced, but I can’t guarantee it

Speedo cable passes through the “Muncie” hole in the firewall

Big block heater core – feed pipes come out in the middle of the cover vs the extreme right hand side

Radiator has a 23” core

Tires pressure sticker on the inside of the glove box has the “AH” code in the bowtie and the correct F70x14RL tire for the SS

The duals hangers are held to the frame with what seem to be threaded holes in the rear frame rails – on BOTH sides, indicating an original dual exhaust

Hood has the correct big block snorkel trim vs. the ribbed trim - I included a pic of the underside of the hood.

Hood does NOT have SS springs – there are 28 vs. 26, at least how I counted.  Don’t know if I was counting correctly

Hood did NOT have any insulation on it

Interior has no gauges and car has 4 wheel manual drum brakes – neither necessary for an SS, just wanted to mention it

Car appears to have original paint except for below the lowest body countour, which was retouched – I could not find overspray ANYWHERE around emblems, window trim, lights, wheel wells, etc.  Paint color is consistent under trunk lid, on door jambs, hinges, etc.

The rear light panel is painted black, as it should be for a big block SS

Car has a spoiler – don’t know if it’s original

Wheels appear to be original rally rims with center caps and beauty rings.

Overall, the car is in very nice DRIVER condition.  No major rot, paint is 90% with a very few small rust spots, interior is very good.  Floor is very solid, although the underside looks like it was hit several times with black paint or the rubberized undercoating.

Real?  Clone?  Worth the price?  Not?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to be as complete as possible.

Thanks…

Chris

barsteel

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 04:22:49 AM »
glove box

camaro jock

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 04:53:10 PM »
Without original engine or transmission there is no way to document the car it is worth whatever you are willing to pay for it, get a second opinion, original pant is big no way to fake that good luck. You did not say how much they are asking but nice car, thanks Darrell

BULLITT65

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 05:02:21 PM »
Welcome to the site.
 It looks like you have done a bit of research already, so you are on the right track. Chick, Darrell or one of the many 68 owners on here will help quite a bit with what is correct for a 68 SS. I would look over the CRG research pages there is always great kernels of information to pour over, and learn from there.

Value wise I can add a little bit of input. This all comes down to how you want to use the car, or what your intensions are for acquiring it. If you are looking to purchase a 1st gen to have fun with and then sell it a few years down the road, this could be your car. If you are more interested in the money to be made or to be recouped then a numbers matching drive train(motor, train, rear end), would seem to make more sense.

IMO I don't know how much more a original BB SS car is worth with a replaced motor and trans VS. a base model V8 Camaro that has a had a BB and SS trim added to it. I would think the difference price wise would be negligible.
I think for the current condition of this car with such items replaced, and a bit of driving wear on it (undercoating small rust spots) high $20's seems pricey. I don't see a motor pic, but from the pics I would think low $20's would be more inline. (maybe less)

In the end if you really like the car make him an offer of what the car is worth to you, knowing you can pay more if you wish for a numbers matching example with less road wear.
Other guys will chime to help you out here as the days go on.
Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:14:03 PM by BULLITT65 »
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

67L78

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 05:07:25 PM »
What size fuel line or lines does it have?

Richard

barsteel

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 05:49:54 PM »
Thanks to all for the replies.

L78 - I don't know what size the fuel line is...guess I missed reading about that one.  What size gas line should a BB SS have vs. a SB SS?

Bullitt - This car will be a driver.  Sure, I don't want to lose my shirt on it if I decide to sell it in a few years, but I'm not looking to buy it to flip it.

Jock - The price thrown about was "high 20s", but no firm number mentioned.

Here's a link the B-J auction page from 2008.  There is NO WAY I would have paid $51.7K for this car, but the economy in 2008 was a lot stronger than it is now.  I believe that they serve free drinks at those events, and that's the reason for it! 

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1968-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-SS-COUPE-64432

My "dream car" would be a '67 RS/SS Big block, but that's like finding a hen's tooth, and I'm certain that it would be near impossible to find a driveable/decent on in the mid-high 20s, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Keep the opinions coming.

Chris

cook_dw

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 06:07:03 PM »
I have my doubts its a true big block.  Its definitely been repainted or at least the stripe has been.  Also fenders have been replaced.  Camaro script and SS emblems are in different locations on each side.  Get a pic of the fuel line coming up on the subframe and to the fuel pump.  Also get a pic of the underside of the trunk where the spoiler bolts to the lid on the pass side.  From the pic I dont see an emblem which means the spoiler was added afterward.  Also could be iffy but car was built around the same time that power assist brakes were mandatory for big blocks.  Does it have the valve on the driver side of subframe in the brake line?  Also get detailed pics of the black tailpan paint lines in the trunk area and behind the bumper.  Also wheels look to be 15x8's which were not original.

barsteel

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 07:22:32 PM »
Cook - NOT trying to challenge or argue, just want to clarify...

How can you tell that the stripe has been repainted?  I could feel a paint line on it when I ran my fingers over it, don't know if the original stripe was supposed to be painted or a sticker.

When I inspected the paint, I looked in all the places that you'd normally find a tape line and/or overspray...none on the window fuzzies, around either window molding, weather stripping, any of the emblems, the radiator support, any part of the inner fenders, hinges, jambs, etc.  If this is a repaint, the car must have had the entire body, drive train, and interior stripped.

I did notice that there was no sticker with directions for changing the spare on the underside of the trunk lid...my understanding is that there should be one.

I looked at both pics, and it seems to me that both emblems are in the same location on both sides, although to me, it's kind of hard to tell from the pics, as they don't provide a "straight on" shot of both sides.

I inspected the tailpan paint lines pretty closely...what would I be looking for?

Chris

67L78

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 08:07:22 PM »
Not up on the 68 cars that much but a 375 horse would have one 3/8 inch line. A 325 horse car with a quadrajet would have two lines. Not sure about the 350 horse cars. Somebody help on this size please. Now i'm talking about big block engines.

1967 4K

cook_dw

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 08:19:47 PM »
Disclaimer:  I am not saying that what I say is gospel but just my opinion.


The stripes are too wide on the turn all the way to the doors.  Plus the emblems are not in the correct position on the fenders.  Stripes are painted on the upper valance and on the front of the wheel openings.  Decal on the backside and on doors. 



Example of the emblems in relation to stripe on known original paint car vs your pic.





Also the return fuel line didnt start until 69.

 

KurtS

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 08:54:49 PM »
I think the axle is original to the car. So probably an SS. No way to prove much more, so it really comes down to condition and what you want....
Price seems realistic.
Kurt S
CRG

mickeystoys69RSSS

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 02:54:47 AM »
Rear end is a 12 bolt, code is BT032502, with an E underneath – which IDs it as a 3.55 Eaton posi unit from March 25, which seems to jive with the VIN date.  I don’t know what the “02” at the end stands for, although the zero could have been a 6 or a G, very hard to read.

Probably a G2 after the date.
G=Detroit Gear and Axle
2=2nd shift

Like Kurt said the axle look good but no way to prove it is a real SS. My take is that unless someone went through all of the trouble to change out to multileaf rear springs, heater box, and radiator and not just the engine and trans, so I have to agree with KurtS  there is a good probability it is a real SS, but no way to prove it.

http://www.camaros.org/diffs68.shtml


68camaroz28

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2014, 03:12:00 AM »
Welcome aboard Chris!
Agree with Darrell about the stripes and would be advantageous to see the engine bay if for anything else but to help determine value but Kurt summed it up pretty well. A lot of this depends on what you want! It would seem with what you have communicated (nice job by the way) the car was an SS Camaro. On the other hand, a nice driver SS without the original engine & trans will always be by many a questionable SS without the original engine and trans. But cars like this are much easier to get into $$ wise, and enjoy.
With that part out of the way, I would spend time checking floors, mechanicals, and bodywork as that is the area that on a car like this can make it or break it.  
Good luck Chris and welcome again!
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

joesauer

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 05:08:45 PM »
Re: hood & hood springs.  The SS hood is heavier then the regular hood...thus the need for SS hood springs.  If you are not sure it's correct, try opening the hood part way (in several different positions).  If the springs are incorrect the hood usually has trouble staying in place in the partially opened positions. 

barsteel

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Re: New guy - Hello! Need opinions - is it a real SS?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2014, 09:43:19 PM »
Joe - good point.  The hood didn't have any problem staying open when I raised it, but it also didn't have the underhood insulation like it should.  If the springs were replaced at some point, they may have removed the insulation to help the  hood stay up.

I'll try to get some pics of the engine compartment.

Unfortunately for me, the car is in Delaware and I'm in CT.  I happened to be in Baltimore for business, so I rented a car and drove the 2 hours to see it.  Getting any additional pics will be difficult, although the owner did send me some engine pics before I went to see the car.  I'll try to get him to resend them to me.

Chris

 

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