Decoding a Pace

[jjonesls1]

Hello,

I could use some help in trying to determine what I have here. I've done a fair bit of reading, and believe I have decoded the VIN and cowl tag correctly using the resources found here. I'm really hoping to be able to find out more about this car if possible. I have yet to find a resource that would allow me to recover a factory window sticker or build sheet, and have had no luck locating the build sheet in the car. Any insight you could shed, or other resources you could suggest would be much appreciated! I'm really hoping to track down the equipment list for the car, and most importantly verify that it was originally and A/C car. It appears to be in every way, but sometimes you just want to see it in writing, ya know?

VIN - 124679n619605

Cowl Tag info-
ST69 12467
TR720
03D
NOR285367 BDY
50A PNT
Z11


Thanks!

[cook_dw]

First things first.  Welcome.  Best thing to do is post a pic of the trim tag & vin as well as the hidden vins..  As far as what you have posted the numbers look ok but cant say 100% without see the items I have listed..

[6667ss138]

There are some pace car experts on here so you came to the right place. I'm sure they will chime in and help you. They will want pictures of the Cowl tag and anything else that you can show like engine pad stamp, trans and rear end numbers. The information you have listed points to a true Z/11 pace car but again without pictures they are only numbers. Also, I'm pretty sure you won't find a build sheet on a Norwood built car and without some of the original factory docs such as Protecto Plate, original owners info etc I don't think you will be able to find the information you are seeking. There is no original GM source out there to retrieve factory docs like the GTO's for example. You can find out the original GM shipper and build date info from the NCRS. Check out the link below. I used to own a Z/11. They are one of my favorites. And as Darrell says, Welcome!

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11724.0

[jjonesls1]

Thanks for all of the help so far! I've got pictures of the vin and trim tags, but not the other locations. I don't have access to the hiddne vin locations at the moment, so hopefully that is enough to get us started.

I'm struggling with attachment sizes, giving it another shot

[z28z11]

It should look like this - 600+ cars ahead of mine, 973 from the body tag. My car was built 3/26, shipped to Texas. 350/350, PS,PT,PDB,A/C car. Probably same day, or a day off. Not bad -

Close enough ? I thought so -

Use Light Image Resizer software, free download. Save it as a jpeg, downsize to 800X600, or 600X480, and you can transfer them all day.

[z28z11]

BTW, the tag looks O.K, with the exception of the masked paint line on the cowl ledge. I assume the car has been painted, at least in the firewall/underhood area. A/C box intact, or removed ?

VIN looks unmolested, plus all the numbers line up with mine. The only other things you can't know for sure are the options, but at least the production timing of the car, TT, and VIN line up fairly well. The chances of someone finding a close TT and installing on this close VIN'd car are pretty remote IMO.

Regards - 

[jjonesls1]

Thanks! A/C box is intact. Is there no way to find the original build info it it's not with the car? I'd just have to get lucky and find it on the car?

[69pace]

At this point in time the Chevrolet build records are presumed destroyed so unless your vehicle was exported to Canada there are no official records besides the rare dealership cache and of course the original owners copies. SO if you are lucky to have the POP and dealer invoice your all set.

My Z11 is two weeks earlier 03B And your vin sequence is in line for the production date. Body numbers can be misleading since the number is generated by the central office based on order, and may take weeks for the body number to be released based on options and availability. 

What shape is she in? Have you posted over at Team Camaro?

[z28z11]

One shot you might try. Depending on your state, your DMV might have saved copies of your dealer invoice, title copies and even the MSO if your car was sold new in your state. I was fortunate to have both my '69 Z and '68 Z's complete history, including dealer invoices and MSO's copied by the state, and microfiched. Cost to copy and give to me - $5.00 for the '69, $15.00 for the '68 (years later). The bad side - TN stopped doing this several years back due to "lack of funding for personnel overtime". Stinks.

You can always try it - might get lucky. If you do, backtrack the previous owners and/or dealerships involved. You never know - takes a lot of work, but it could really pay off in the long run -

Regards, and good luck. Keep us informed -

[jjonesls1]

Thanks for the help guys! Another question for you. I have looked high and low for this information, but been unable to find it -

I'm curious to find a breakdown of production numbers on the '69 Pace cars. Is there a way to find out how many of the '69 pace car convertibles were built with A/C? This is a 350 A/C car. I am comparing this to another pacer that is a 396 car w/ no A/C. Is there a way to find out the production #'s for each, and which would be more rare?

[z28z11]

Good question. I'll take my shot; then others can shoot at me -

Out of all the 1969 production Camaros, roughly 18% were equipped with C60 air conditioning. You can bet the percentage of convertibles w/ A/C was a lot lower, maybe 10% ? Less ? Good time for the numbers gurus in residence -

6.5% of total production (15,866) were V-8 convertibles. Of that number, 23% (3675) were Pace Cars. If you assume (I don't like the word, but there it is) 10% of Pacers were A/C cars, you would get about 367 total. How many big blocks ? roughly 200-300 from what I have read - if you apply the same formula to big 'uns as little 'uns, you'd get about 20-30. Rule out the 375 horse cars from the mix, cause solid lifter cars could not be A/C equipped by rule. My estimation - a lot lower number than that on both sides of displacement combinations. Probably saw very few in the northern climes, more in the south and southwest (which is one of the reasons I believe my Z11 was fortunate). I have seen a couple that had dealer-added underdash air, but it's uncertain at what point people added them. On a local level, of the three Pacers that were owned in this area, two had A/C, one did not. All three are small blocks.

This is conjecture on my part. I would have rather you asked how many had the ZL2 hood (lol) - we know that percentage !

Other opinions ?

Regards -

[cook_dw]

On a local level, of the three Pacers that were owned in this area, two had A/C, one did not. All three are small blocks.

I believe I knew 2 of those local cars personally..  

[6667ss138]

I'm not sure about rarity but in my "opinion" a real numbers matching big block pace car will bring more money than a real numbers matching small block pace with A/C. That is if we are talking same basic condition and documentation, trans etc 
Now others can shoot me

[jjonesls1]

I'm not sure about rarity but in my "opinion" a real numbers matching big block pace car will bring more money than a real numbers matching small block pace with A/C. That is if we are talking same basic condition and documentation, trans etc 
Now others can shoot me

I think I would be inclined to agree with you to an extent. The trouble I'm having is deciding how much more. $10k?

[6667ss138]

Yes, again just my opinion and I'm not really in the loop with the latest price guides and auction results for pace cars but I believe a real, original docs, numbers matching big block, non A/C, Z/11 (especially a 4 spd car) is worth 10K more than an equivalent small block pace with A/C. I think that is a fair number.
Without giving away the location of the cars you are looking at do you have any more info or photos that you can share as far as condition and options
to compare with?
Here are a couple Hagerty price guide reports.

http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1100569

http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=501529

[z28z11]

On a local level, of the three Pacers that were owned in this area, two had A/C, one did not. All three are small blocks.

I believe I knew 2 of those local cars personally..   

And the other one casually, whether you've actually seen it or not -

[z28z11]

Yes, again just my opinion and I'm not really in the loop with the latest price guides and auction results for pace cars but I believe a real, original docs, numbers matching big block, non A/C, Z/11 (especially a 4 spd car) is worth 10K more than an equivalent small block pace with A/C. I think that is a fair number.
Without giving away the location of the cars you are looking at do you have any more info or photos that you can share as far as condition and options
to compare with?

I don't disagree with the worth of a BB in comparison to an A/C equipped SB Z-11, but I would make dang sure it was an original BB car before I turned down a SB w/ A/C in deference to a made-up BB. Too many transplants around to try and make more money from the unsuspecting and/or enthusiastic buyer. I like the ability to roll up the windows and cruise in comfort (especially since my age has crept up on me).

[6667ss138]

Good point! One has to do there homework, the fakers will sure screw a fella over if they get the chance.
As much as I would love to own a legit big block pace car today the one I had was a pretty rust free, original paint car. I found it in the 90's. It was an original numbers matching, small block Z/11 with A/C. If i would have known then what I know now I might not have even restored it and left it as a survivor. I did do a complete frame off restoration with Lacquer paint. In 1999 I took it to a Charlie Daniels celebrity charity event that included a car show. All of the celebrities judged and picked there favorite car. The biker/construction worker with the beard that was on Home Improvement picked my car. I can't think of his name right now but he said he almost bought one just like it new back in 69. He took pictures with me and the car and signed autographs. I sold that car for $26K in 2000. They escalated in price shortly thereafter. There have been many times I wish I still had it.

[KurtS]

Your car had the AC added to it when it lived in AZ. Sold new in CO.

[jjonesls1]

Hi just got a chance to check back in on this. That is very interesting how were you able to find that info Kurt? Anything you can share with me?

[KurtS]

The car was on ebay before.