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Author Topic: HELP!! I need info regarding original exhaust DB level!!  (Read 666 times)
Leadfoot1
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« on: July 15, 2014, 12:16:01 PM »

Hey guy's,

Im having a fight in court about this. Its become a plague over here in Quebec and MANY guy"'s have sunk thousand of dollars into trying to keep their aftermarket exhaust on their cars. Now before you get all revved up about "aftermarket" beeing employed.... The term i used sadly reflects anything thats not come from the General!!!! If its not a GM part number, its not original and they tag you with tockets of 162$ everytime they come across you and you have not corrected the matter. Now, try and find a NOS muffler!!! Then PAY for it!!

It is so stupid. They stop everyone. I had 8 personnal friends get pulled over and be ticketed in last 2 weeks, its the new "cow" they found to fill on the towns cash needs....

The debate is on "...vehicle without a proper exhaust system"  and they say it needs to npbe EXACTLY same design as original or it dont go.

Anyone know of a "Perfect replacement" on the market that meets EVERY buil criteria?

Anyone has official (verifyable) numbers regarding noise level (DB)  when new so i could give my lawyer and also compare to my actual?

This is ridiculous, they stop everybody, bikes, trucks, cars, they just take your papers, write ticket and on to the next, they dont eve bother talking to you. MONEY is all that matters.

Id like to try building a super case and i have a lot im thinking could be good and we have a few cases that have been won we use as comparision ( cant remember the term they use for that).

Anyway..... Im pretty pissed if you cant tell lol!!

Hoping i can find some help here.

Lead.
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Pacecar
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 12:39:20 PM »

Gardner Exhaust makes factory original systems right down to the exhaust clamps. I would go to their web site and read their product descriptions. Also, they may be able to assist in info regarding DB level.  I would also mention that GM had the chambered exhaust system as standard on Z/28's early in the 1969 model year and available as an option through late April. That is substantially louder than a system with a muffler.
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Leadfoot1
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 12:54:23 PM »

Hey thanks Pacecar!

I know of gardner and tought about it... The thing is, id need to be able to prove it was available as an option on EVERY single Camaro in 69.

See, everything i'll find will need to be super solid facts as im taking this to court. Thats why i was asking if we'd have some numbers on here that would be documented. If we have GM documentation that says something regarding the DB levels of those systems in the days, i could actually and effectively compare them to these days replacement like Gardner's.

At the point i am, i even saw an original GM Chambered exhaust for 2500$, i was just thinking, but then would the noise level be a legal factor or if it was on the car from the factory it get the green light off the bat? Or if new laws trumps over the cars 'would be' original parts?

Its just a matter of the muffler description with these guys. They want the muffler to have what the original ones had ie: expansion chamber, baffles etc. And i cant find a cut away of an ACTUAL 1969 Muffler.

Aside from the chambered exhaust, what was the orig exhaust like on a 69? Something like my American Thunder (Flowmaster) system layout?

Thanks for the help!!

Lead.
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69Z28
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 02:31:58 PM »

We have the same issue here in Delaware but most of the time unless your showing excessive speed or improper take off the police won't bother you too much. The problem is when the vehicle has it's inspection. There is a strict decibel level here, I can't quote what it is but at 3000 rpm my 66 Chevy II was failed at 104 decibels. I had factory style system with turbo mufflers. Cars here from 68 up even get tail piped, so I circumvented the state inspection by getting my car tagged antique. I never have to get it inspected again...but...I'm only aloud to drive it as 'leisure' to shows, parades etc. and not as a daily driver. I only drive mine at night often after midnight to get my thrills. Currently have the stock type exhaust that was on it when I bought it, I think it is just a plain Walker aluminized system but when it's time to change it out I have an aluminized chambered exhaust going on it. This works for me. I rarely ever see state or local police where I drive my Z so I'm pretty sure I can get away with the chambered system...knock on wood. They say Gardner exhaust is nice but damn that's a lot of cash to fork out. I haven't looked into it in a long time but is Walker still producing the exhaust for the Camaro still? Never had a problem with them in the past except maybe for that odd day I wanted to put my foot on the floor in the 70's.

Sounds like where you live may have been hit with budget cuts??? It seems anything that isn't normal about our cars is always subject to police harassment. I even got a ticket one day because my carb was too loud. No kidding. I can't see how some of these guys can get away with some of the exhaust system installed on their cars, unless those states don't have noise laws.

 
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GaryC

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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 04:02:28 PM »

    Luckily on Long Island, any car older than 25 years only needs a safety inspection and no longer requires an exhaust pipe test so there is no problem with DB readings. But, the tail pipe(s) have to extend to the back of the car. The only time I have seen cops bust chops over loud exhausts is when the drivers actions warrant it, otherwise they leave you alone (and may admire your ride).
 Here is the NY code and reading it closely would indicate you would be OK if you use a stock type system. IMO, if a reproduction/aftermarket OEM type is installed for your year car then it should be acceptable.

NYVTL 375-31. Mufflers and exhaust systems. Prevention of noise. Every motor vehicle, operated or driven upon the highways of the state, shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler and exhaust system in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise and no such muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device. No person shall modify the muffler or exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor or exhaust system above that emitted by the muffler or exhaust system originally installed on the vehicle and such original muffler and exhaust system shall comply with the requirements of this section.

A muffler is a device consisting of a series of chambers or baffle plates, or other mechanical design for the purpose of receiving exhaust gas from an internal combustion engine, and effective in reducing noise.

An exhaust system is a series of mechanical devices for the purpose of receiving exhaust gas from an internal combustion engine and expelling it into the atmosphere.

Mike
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 05:08:20 PM »

The early 69  Z-28's and L-78's came with chambered exhaust and yes some of the guys were getting tickets for noise level. That's one of the reasons the factory made them optional later that year. We all need to support organizations like SEMA that fight stuff like these crazy laws, because once we lose the right to Drive, Own or Possess these cars, at that point..... It's to late!!
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" He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught"  It's not you...  It's just the way my brain is wired.
Leadfoot1
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 09:43:16 AM »

I hear ya on the chambered stuff. Here, the law is that it tneeds to be FACTORY ISSUED if its not, it wont pass unless it made proff thet the muffler consists of a chamber of expansion, etc etc etc they have a very strict description of how a muffler needs to be made INSIDE. And they have an expert there fighting for them on every fought ticket.  He stands there with his cutted out mufflers and shows the judge why they are not LEGAL. You cant get out of it it seems.

I seen some decisions taken to superior court, WON, with a lawyer, with all the points finally read by a Sup Judge as they should be and the guys (were 5 in same case fighting they had been arrested together on bikes) and in the end, they won but later the decision has been called again and in the end they were reconducted to the original crime accusation by a law of rights or something....

They dont go by noise and thats what pisse me off as my car dont make more noise than before!!! I was even a bit deceived when i put that american thunder kit on ans even my wife said "thats all?" When she first heard it lol!! Hey, its a lowly 2 bbl 327 thumping thru 2.5 pipes. But it has a light rumble thats perfect for cruising, they dont have sonometers so they cant say. That was even the main point of the superior judge saying the law says "you cant modify, change or replace bla bla bla to make more noise" so his argument was that in order to found a point youd need to have the noise level the car pushed out ORIGINALLY in order to be able to prove that its now making MORE noise. Thats all the law says.... So in reality they cant issue tickets as they cant tell. But then, they have their expert and he says green so the Judge says "im gonna go with my expert....he said green so it must be.....HE is an expert...are you? There you go, thank you and pay 162$ Plus fees on your way out.

Argghhh!!!!  They really are Suit bandits!!

Lead.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 09:56:01 AM »

Argghhh!!!!  They really are Suit bandits!!

Lead.

They must have been trained by the same separatists who invented the anglo-french sign police.  :-(
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'69 Z/28
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 11:41:41 AM »

 I see them for what they really are... low life car Nazis!!!
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" He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught"  It's not you...  It's just the way my brain is wired.
69Z28
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 04:05:14 PM »

I see them for what they really are... low life car Nazis!!!


X2. Taking the fun out of being different.
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GaryC

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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 10:25:18 PM »

Hey thanks Pacecar!

I know of gardner and tought about it... The thing is, id need to be able to prove it was available as an option on EVERY single Camaro in 69.



Aside from the chambered exhaust, what was the orig exhaust like on a 69? Something like my American Thunder (Flowmaster) system layout?

Thanks for the help!!

Lead.
No single exhaust system was available on every single 1969 Camaro optional or otherwise.

RPO's L34,L78,L89 & Z28 produced before Dec 4th 1968 used a chambered type exhaust.

As of December 4th the Z28 went to a single crossflow muffler until May 2nd when resonators were added in front of the crossflow.


I would go buy an old original system that was worn out and put it on... If they want GM part numbers it would have them.
Call GM and tell them your Canadian overlords have dictated they sell you an original system, seems to be a catch 22, you have to have it but you can't buy it..
Seems to me that if it's not available it is difficult to require it's installation.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
Leadfoot1
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 01:49:13 PM »

Exactly what im thinking....cant buy it so what do i do?Huh

I wrote a letter to the city's general director and complaint letter to the Police dept.
i had the Police dept's Captain call yesterday and we spoke for over an hour. Didnt give anything..... He says he understands my point and even admits his officer IS of the very Zealous kind but that he did his work as he his required to. I cant say he was impolite or anything as he was fine, just a fuckin power trippin cop, but doing his job and doing what he is asked to do.

From my discussion with the Captn. (He is recently affected to my city and said he was gonna go over that noise program and make sure the cops lift foot on the people like me that have reasonnable noise vehicle and make sure they use their head when they can see its an old vehicle and its obvious the parts are what the owner CAN get and to just use judgement in those cases....
Captn said if i get a letter from GM or just get my replacement prts from GM or a muffler shop that says the prts ARE what's going on the car as replacement, then i shall just keep my receipt in glovebox as proof and show it if beeing questionned and it should take care of it. Yeah....tell that to that freak head that stopped me, ill end up fighting again. Im sure.

Anyway, now i need to find a picture that i can prove is a real cutaway view of an original double exhaust GM muffler. Anyone has anything on that? I've looked a lot and cant come up with anything. I saw an original one on ebay for 250$ and tought of buying it to cut it and compare it to my flowmaster's layout to bring to court (if they are same inside, or at least meeting their 'muffler description')  but id like to see it before shelling out my hard earned money. I REALLY want to fight this to the end, AND WIN. But I dont want to throw my money away if i can save it you know...


Help??

Thanks!!

Lead.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2014, 02:02:47 PM »

Well.. I think I  see their point as well..   a flowmaster muffler is NOT the same as the replacement muffler.  I, as most car guys do, LOVE the sound of a flowmaster and it's deep tone, but for the noise Nazis..   it's going to be too loud.   

If you need to get by the ticket/problem, just buy a replacement type muffler and put it on.. and be done with it.   For the period between Dec/Jan and May or June?   the  '2 in-2 out' muffler was the only muffling element in the system.   DR has a complete exhaust system which is a decently-priced replacement system, made to GM specs, and should address the legal issues as well.
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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