Grill emblem placement for a 1969 Z/28 RS vs Standard

[jk1969z28]

During the Camaro Nationals this year I was talking to Fred from Texas who has a sweet 1969 Z/28 Cortez Silver RS and I asked him why his grill emblem was placed more towards center vs where it would be located on the standard grill.  He indicated that last year he was docked a point because the emblem should be moved to its current location.  I believe he was correct with where he originally had it because in my mind why would they move the emblem more towards center on the RS, there are 5 verticle lines on the standard and the RS grill and it only makes sense that the emblem should remain at the same location regardless of which grill, plus it just doesn't look right being on the more centered location.  Plus I also remembered an article from Muscle Machines about a guy who bought an RS Z/28 new, sold it then got it back years later, but the interesting part about the article is the picture from when he first got the car and it shows that the emblem is in the location of which I believe it should be.  So Fred if you see this post here is a link to the article, I knew I would find it!!  Scrowl through the pictures and let me know what you think.  Food for thought!!  Hope you made it home safe and sound.

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2011/08/01/hmn_feature2.html

Regards,
Jerry K.

[69Z28-RS]

I think *this* is the Cortez Silver Z28/RS that you are referring to at the nationals....  and I agree that the Z28 emblem seems a bit *too centered* in the grill.   The article you reference has the Z28 emblem which 'seems' better to me (but this is a question that seems to have no 'documented' answer, as I haven't been able to find it in any GM documents (for the RS), and Z28 emblems on RS grills seem to get placed all over the place..

[jk1969z28]

Thanks Gary, that is the car.  Again I do not see any reason why the placement would be different RS vs. Standard.  To clarify what I mean by 5 verticles, if you look at the center veritcle and take that as zero like on a number line then go right there are 5 verticles before you get to the head light.  The standard grill placement is on the third veritcle splitting the Z and thus should "in my opinion" do the same on the RS grill and would place it in the same location in relation to the stripe.  It seems obvious to me and looks "right".  The location on Fred's car is on the second verticle and just looks weird.  Fred had it on the third verticle but was told it was "wrong", but not sure on what basis.  Just a pet peave, I guess, of mine, I could be wrong but I would have to have something more concrete.  That is why I referenced the article and a picture that was at the latest taken in 1970.  I have a standard grill car so I don't have a dog in the fight, but if mine was an RS I would put it on the 3rd verticle because it looks "right" :-)

Regards,
Jerry

[69Z28-RS]

I recall from when I purchased my 69 Z28/RS in 1976, the emblem location 'didn't look right' to me, and I moved it..  I was basing that decision on the location of the emblem on my '68 Z28 (non RS) car I'd traded for the '69.. but I had no doc/manual to go by..   it was purely by 'look' to me, but I'd been around original Z28's since 1968, but not many RS models.

I *think* the various locations of the Z28 emblem on an RS grill comes from the fact that the RS grill 'seems more narrow' than the std grill to the eye, and maybe the 'black color' of it?, and the factory assembly manual instructions shows the 'std' grill, and doesn't address the RS grill location...

[cook_dw]

I recall from when I purchased my 69 Z28/RS in 1976, the emblem location 'didn't look right' to me, and I moved it..  I was basing that decision on the location of the emblem on my '68 Z28 (non RS) car I'd traded for the '69.. but I had no doc/manual to go by..   it was purely by 'look' to me, but I'd been around original Z28's since 1968, but not many RS models.

I *think* the various locations of the Z28 emblem on an RS grill comes from the fact that the RS grill 'seems more narrow' than the std grill to the eye, and maybe the 'black color' of it?, and the factory assembly manual instructions shows the 'std' grill, and doesn't address the RS grill location...

FYI 68's didnt have Z emblems in the grill.

[jk1969z28]

So if there is no documentation, how can he be docked a point?  And if there is no documentation then it was probably assumed that the default was the standard grill location, and I like to go back to how the placement in the grill relates to the stripe.  I'd love to see some more early, early photos like the article if anyone has any.

[69Z28-RS]

I recall from when I purchased my 69 Z28/RS in 1976, the emblem location 'didn't look right' to me, and I moved it..  I was basing that decision on the location of the emblem on my '68 Z28 (non RS) car I'd traded for the '69.. but I had no doc/manual to go by..   it was purely by 'look' to me, but I'd been around original Z28's since 1968, but not many RS models.

I *think* the various locations of the Z28 emblem on an RS grill comes from the fact that the RS grill 'seems more narrow' than the std grill to the eye, and maybe the 'black color' of it?, and the factory assembly manual instructions shows the 'std' grill, and doesn't address the RS grill location...

FYI 68's didnt have Z emblems in the grill.

you're right DW..    I typed too fast and had a brain fart..    

To clarify... " I was basing my conclusion that my RS Z28 grill emblem placement as being 'wrong' on being around MANY non-RS 69 Z28's in the past...    "

[cook_dw]

I recall from when I purchased my 69 Z28/RS in 1976, the emblem location 'didn't look right' to me, and I moved it..  I was basing that decision on the location of the emblem on my '68 Z28 (non RS) car I'd traded for the '69.. but I had no doc/manual to go by..   it was purely by 'look' to me, but I'd been around original Z28's since 1968, but not many RS models.

I *think* the various locations of the Z28 emblem on an RS grill comes from the fact that the RS grill 'seems more narrow' than the std grill to the eye, and maybe the 'black color' of it?, and the factory assembly manual instructions shows the 'std' grill, and doesn't address the RS grill location...

FYI 68's didnt have Z emblems in the grill.

you're right DW..    I typed too fast and had a brain fart..    

To clarify... " I was basing my conclusion that my RS Z28 grill emblem placement as being 'wrong' on being around MANY non-RS 69 Z28's in the past...    "

Just giving you a hard time..  

[69Z28-RS]

I recall from when I purchased my 69 Z28/RS in 1976, the emblem location 'didn't look right' to me, and I moved it..  I was basing that decision on the location of the emblem on my '68 Z28 (non RS) car I'd traded for the '69.. but I had no doc/manual to go by..   it was purely by 'look' to me, but I'd been around original Z28's since 1968, but not many RS models.

I *think* the various locations of the Z28 emblem on an RS grill comes from the fact that the RS grill 'seems more narrow' than the std grill to the eye, and maybe the 'black color' of it?, and the factory assembly manual instructions shows the 'std' grill, and doesn't address the RS grill location...

FYI 68's didnt have Z emblems in the grill.

you're right DW..    I typed too fast and had a brain fart..    

To clarify... " I was basing my conclusion that my RS Z28 grill emblem placement as being 'wrong' on being around MANY non-RS 69 Z28's in the past...    "

Just giving you a hard time..   

No hard time taken.  I appreciate your correcting my post...  (but you should know that it could turn into an almost full time job!)..

[cook_dw]

No hard time taken.  I appreciate your correcting my post...  (but you should know that it could turn into an almost full time job!)..

Ill just keep the corrections for 68 comments.  Ill let someone else have 69's & 7's..  lol  Lord knows I been wrong more than once or twice..      Thats what I like about this place we can all talk about things and make corrections without everyone getting all butt hurt.  Well most of us..  

Ok done hijacking.. 

[Fred69Z28RS]

Jerry, thanks for asking the question. Also, enjoyed talking to you at Nationals. They are going by the photo in Jerry MacNeish's book on page 5 and 45 which show it on the middle slat. Thanks, Fred

[69Z28-RS]

Jerry, thanks for asking the question. Also, enjoyed talking to you at Nationals. They are going by the photo in Jerry MacNeish's book on page 5 and 45 which show it on the middle slat. Thanks, Fred

if you use JM's 4th edition, pg 45 shows frontal photos of the std and RS grills for a Z28.  Look at the placement of the Z28 emblems relative to the LHS stripe..   they are NOT placed the same.    I don't know what is correct for Z28/RS cars, and perhaps no one does... since there is not factory documentation that I've seen, and most everyone who has an RS is confused about it...

[ZLP955]

Many people can't get it in the correct place on non-RS cars either, so no surprise the RS owners are confused without GM documentation.

[jk1969z28]

Hi Fred,  No problem asking the question.  That is what this forum is for.  I don't want to make a federal case about it but we can go on and on about the finish of a bolt that most people will never see, but getting one of the most important elements of an ICONIC American automobile correct should be essential.  Again if there is NO documentation then why the point reduction.  So then it comes down to the picture in Jerry's book vs the picture in the link I put up.  The closer to the selling date the picture the more reliable I would contend, so if there is anyone out there with photos when they brought their 1969 RS Z/28 home for the first time and can post them that would be outstanding and go a long way in helping others.  I agree that most people mess up the standard grill emblem.  It makes all the purist cringe and that should be the way we feel with the RS Z/28 grill, it can't be acceptable to be located in more than one place, there is only one that is correct.  So go ahead Fred and move that emblem back, my money says you had it right all along.

Jerry K.

[MO]

Check out the cover car of the latest Muscle Car Review. Reportedly, an unrestored original car, and the emblem is more to the center of the grill.

[ko-lek-tor]

Untouched? http://www.legendarycollectorcars.com/2010/10/1969-camaro-rsz28-barn-find/

[jk1969z28]

Saw the Muscle Car Review cover online, does it look like it has a black bumper?  And are the headlight doors black and not painted as they should be? 

[Kelley W King]

If you guys are talking about the Fathom Green in Muscle Car Review. Look at the original engine except hoses and belts. I saw a 67 down oil fill tube and cap and the valve covers are on the wrong sides. Not sure I would say all original.

[jk1969z28]

So then I would submit that the Muscle Car Review cover car could be discounted as a good source regardless of where the emblem was located.  The barn find car has possibilities but I would rely more on pictures closer to the date of sale like the one in the link, that picture was taken very early in the cars life.  I would also like to caveat the purpose of this dialogue is not to tick anyone off, totally not the intention here, just would like to get this important fact correct because the Legend cars are what become the template for others to base their restorations.

Jerry K.

[jdv69z]

For what it's worth, here's mine. Never been off car since I've had it, but car has been re-painted, so no guarantee it's in the original location.

[jk1969z28]

Jimmy, Thank you for the contribution, and please I mean no disrespect, but your emblem has been off the car.  And you say "how can you tell mister smarty pants".  Well if you feel behind the Z there are guides that place the emblem on the vertical and horizontal location and behind the numbers there is a guide for placing on the horizontal location.  So the horizontal should split the emblem in half you'll see what I mean once you feel behind it.  I would even say, that in the link I posted the location of where the emblem on the Yellow car is now after restoration might be a click off, I don't think he has the vertical between the two guide marks on the "Z", but that is just from eyeballing it.

Regards,
Jerry K.

[jdv69z]

Didn't know that; I'll have to look. I do know the grill was replaced when the car was re-painted, so, yes, emblem has been off the car. And even though it's now on the car, apparently it's still "off"

[jk1969z28]

Jimmy thanks for not yelling at me    Be careful if you do decide to relocate the emblem, I've seen a post break before when removing the nut.  I'll let you decide if you should put it on the 2nd or 3rd vertical.


Jerry K.

[x77-69z28]

Also jimmy, the backing plate should be square. Yours is on a diagonal. It will actually line up with the bars of the grille. It is just off a smidge. When you move it, you will step back and say "that's it!"

[jk1969z28]

Interesting that both RS Z/28s that are for sale at Heartbeat City have the emblem on the third vertical, nice detailed photos of both cars by the way.

Jerry K.

[69Z28-RS]

After I purchased my car in 1976, the grill Z28 emblem didn't appear 'correct' to my eyes (not based on documentation, just 'appearance').. and I moved it to center it on the 3rd vertical.   As I recall, it only will go on 'properly' in specific locations (ie. positioning is not totally artitrary, as the little backing plate will only go on in certain locations).   Centered on the 3rd vertical is what appears 'correct' to me now, and appeared correct to me in '76..

[Vince]

Here is a picture of a photo the original owner of my '69 Z/28 RS sent me a few years ago.  It is a 01C car, was sold in Feb., 1969, and the photo was taken in Apr., 1969.  I can't imagine the grill emblem being moved from where the factory installed it with the car only being 3 months old from assembly date and 2 months old since being purchased new.  It looks a little high in the grill to me rather than being centered from top to bottom.  I'm just thinking that with the emblem being installed on the assembly line by humans, with no pre-drilled holes like sheet metal would have, the grill emblem might have been installed in a "general area" on the driver's side of the grill, on RS cars anyway. 

[Vince]

Arrrgghhh.  It says that my photo is too large to post.  Sorry guys.  I'm not that computer literate to know what to do now. 

[cook_dw]

Send it to me & Ill post it.

cook_dw @ hotmail.com

Take out the spaces on either side of the "@".

[cook_dw]

Here you go.

[Vince]

Thank you Darrell.  Much appreciated.

[jk1969z28]

Vince, Awesome thanks for the contribution!!!  It does appear to be on the third veritcal though, I think the stripe is the key and the placement of the emblem in relationship should be the same RS vs. Standard.  Any more pictures anyone else has would be great.

Regards,
Jerry K.

[69Z28-RS]

I think Jerry hit it on the head; forget the verticals or RS or not..  just center the Z28 emblem under the driver's side stripe...   I spent some time going thru all the photos I have saved for the last few years, and the more original cars do have the Z28 emblem laterally centered under the LHS stripe and centered vertically... ..    ie..  check the original car that Chick and Skip recently found....  

[HOT3O2]

Hey Gary, If I don't have stripes am I free to put it anywhere? 

[69Z28-RS]

*If you don't have stripes, you can't use the emblem...    J/K....

[HOT3O2]

*If you don't have stripes, you can't use the emblem...    J/K....

That's what I get for buying a Stripe Delete Z/28.

[jk1969z28]

Placement is pretty straight forward because of the guides that are on the back of the emblem.  On the Standard grill it is a given and everyone knows its location that is why I think it looks awkward if it is placed anywhere else, standard, RS or even stripe delete :-).  Wonder if this should be a research project?  Any feedback from the Legend judges on this issue for the RS grill?

Jerry K.

[69Z28-RS]

*If you don't have stripes, you can't use the emblem...    J/K....

That's what I get for buying a Stripe Delete Z/28.

OK OK.  you get to put your Z28 emblem in the center, or use the RS emblem..

[HOT3O2]

Thanks Gary, I'm a happy camper now.

[jdv69z]

So is my Z/28 grille emblem in the correct location now? If it is, I had to use a pic of another car to get right. Not as simple as one would think.

[jk1969z28]

In my opinion yes!!  Others might have a different opinion.

Jerry K.

[69Z28-RS]

So is my Z/28 grille emblem in the correct location now? If it is, I had to use a pic of another car to get right. Not as simple as one would think.

Jim, it looks 'slightly to the right' to me.. not exactly centered under the stripe...?   It's hard to tell, but it appears that it's between two verticals, rather than astraddle the 3rd verticle??

[jdv69z]

I tried to match the emblem on John Z's Car. See his attached pic.


I see what you mean about centered on the stripe from the pic of the orange Z above. Are the standard and RS grilles in the same relationship as far as the square openings are concerned? My striping and the orange Z's appear to be close to the same?

[69Z28-RS]

I tried to match the emblem on John Z's Car. See his attached pic.

I see what you mean about centered on the stripe from the pic of the orange Z above. Are the standard and RS grilles in the same relationship as far as the square openings are concerned? My striping and the orange Z's appear to be close to the same?

I don't have two grills (RS and non RS) to compare, but I'm beginning to think the square opening aren't the same (ie. the egg crate openings have different dimensions between the two grills).     I think if you go back to 'centering under the stripe'..   you'd be best off.    Isn't JohnZ's emblem centered under his stripe?

[jdv69z]

Don't have a John Z Pic of emblem and hood Stripe to compare. But if you look closely, the 2 verticals behind the "8" and Behind the "Z" are the oriented same on his and mine. That's how I tried to line mine up. I'm assuming I'm aligned with the horizontals.

[1968 Z28]

Jimmy...it seems that your photo was taken to the right of the center of the stripe and also at an angle to the stripe thus kinda distorting the position of the emblem in relation to the stripe.  Why don't you just center yourself in front of the stripe and look straight down the center of the stripe and see if the relationship looks better aligned.  Just a thought here.....sometimes camera angles can play tricks on you.

[jdv69z]

Here's a view more dead on.

[1968 Z28]

You didn't say what you thought but it looks centered to me.....looks great.

[jk1969z28]

I have never measured the openings of the "egg" crate rectangles Standard vs. RS, but I would bet they are the same.  My opinion again is that the Z should be split by the third vertical, but the judges in the Legend class deducted points saying it should be centered on the second vertical but I have not seen any of them defend that position or show any other supporting material other then what is pictured in Jerry Mac's book.  Again not that I am correct but just from a gut feeling.  One thing you will notice is that the headlights on the Standard grill are closer together versus the RS headlights and I think that might play into some folks thinking it should be on the second, but if you go to my original post the picture from 1969 is very compelling.  Plus it just looks "right" again, my opinion.  Jimmy to make certain your emblem is on the vertical correctly make sure the guides on the back of the emblem are split by the vertical and not to the right or left, if you've had the emblem off and looked at the back of it you'll know what I'm referring too.

Regards,
Jerry K.

[jdv69z]

Yes I do know what you are referring to. If you look at the pic of the Z Emblem on John Z's car that I posted, you can see the verticals behind the Z and the 8. I'm calling the one behind the Z in the John Z pic the third vertical. My is aligned exactly the same, with the third vertical behind the Z, and the second behind the 8. The pic of the orange Z in this post also shows the same alignment. Is there a pic of "centered on the second vertical" somewhere that you were judged on? Be curious to see it.

[jk1969z28]

Jimmy, you got it spot on in my opinion, the second post in this discussion shows the Silver Z with the emblem on the second vertical.  Now when you look at your car do you think, in your opinion it looks "right" as opposed to where you had it before?

[jdv69z]

The second vertical being the second one right of center, correct? That would be a couple of inches left of where I have mine located? Can't tell for sure on the silver Z pic, but that seems too far to the center?  Would the Chevrolet - Norwood assembly workers have installed this emblem onto the grille, I assuming? Then would there be a spec in the factory assembly manual?

I'm probably beating a dead horse anyway, as I'm not concerned about judging. I'm happy with where mine is now, so I'll just leave it as is.

[1968 Z28]

Hi Jimmy.....here is a shot from the AIM.

     

[69Z28]

Here is mine close up. The emblem has not been removed by me since I bought the car in 2000. It has 3 repaints on top of original but I don't believe the grill has ever been stripped and repainted, so it may never have been removed but I'm just guessing that.

[jdv69z]

HaHa! It still wasn't correct. I had the backing plate backwards. But the location is the same as Gary C's above, and others, etc. I'm done!

[69Z28-RS]

Here is mine close up. The emblem has not been removed by me since I bought the car in 2000. It has 3 repaints on top of original but I don't believe the grill has ever been stripped and repainted, so it may never have been removed but I'm just guessing that.

your emblem is perfectly centered under the stripe, GaryC..     just as most of the others.. 

[cook_dw]

Dragging up an old thread as I thought this was of interest..  Was over at a buddies house today bsing and looked at his original Z that had 1 repaint.  We were discussing the emblem location and he showed me the pic of when he bought the car back in '70..  Just thought I would add the photos..

[jk1969z28]

Interesting seeing the old photos, if the location of the emblem was a topic was it because one of you questioned its location?  But either it was a mistake at the factory or someone moved it, but it should be moved towards the headlight with the "Z" being split by the vertical line that is currently between the "Z" and the "28".  On the horizontal location it is correct.  I don't mean any disrespect and the car is beautiful, but the emblem has guide marks on the back side that are meant to line up the emblem on the grill, if you use your pinkie and feel behind the "Z" you should be able to feel the alignment marks, they are very pronounced.  But if your friend is happy with it by all means leave it alone!!

[cook_dw]

Reason for me posting it was for people to see that there are outliers when it comes to how these cars are suppose to be restored vs how they were originally built.

Regardless where it was suppose to be according to assembly line direction this is as close to original of a photo as it will get with this car and I would suspect that because this was a very early 69 build car that it was more than likely positioned wrong at the plant and missed..  Why would you move the emblem to the "correct" position and create another cookie cutter car when these were built by humans and had human errors..  Does that mean all cars were missed?  Of course not but the emblem will stay in the location it is in on this car. 


Oh and the reason for the discussion about the emblem between us was I didnt think it was correct until seeing the photos.

[69Z28]

Reason for me posting it was for people to see that there are outliers when it comes to how these cars are suppose to be restored vs how they were originally built.

Regardless where it was suppose to be according to assembly line direction this is as close to original of a photo as it will get with this car and I would suspect that because this was a very early 69 build car that it was more than likely positioned wrong at the plant and missed..  Why would you move the emblem to the "correct" position and create another cookie cutter car when these were built by humans and had human errors..  Does that mean all cars were missed?  Of course not but the emblem will stay in the location it is in on this car. 


Oh and the reason for the discussion about the emblem between us was I didnt think it was correct until seeing the photos.

Hi DW...I was just looking at the pic of the car you posted and my pic just above it...Look at the emblem placement on both grills...optical illusion?

[cook_dw]

Gary I would agree with you that it could be optical illusion if the vertical bars were set back from the horizontal..  We did look at the car and emblem from the same angle as the pic and it matches..  So idk..

[firstgenaddict]

The backing plate & emblem had never been off sand it was installed on a diagonal. LOL

[MrMotion]

This photo may help

[cook_dw]

And both photos together and one with lines showing the edge of the horizontal bars.

[cook_dw]

This photo may help

And thanks for the photo btw.

[cook_dw]

Dragging this back up again.  I have witnessed 2 known original 69 Z's that have the same emblem placement as the one I posted back in 2016.  I will post photos later once I have time.

[z28z11]

Just 'cause it bolts on doesn't make it right -

I removed this about 15 minutes after I got it home - problem was when whoever mounted it to the grille, they overtightened the nuts and broke the grille. I managed to repair it, but aggravating. '69's look better with the grille emblem.

You can really tell at a glance when an owner has one out of position - it's obvious it just doesn't look correct. I've got a good front-on shot of the X77 in '75 if I can find it - may take a year or two.


Regards,
Steve

[cook_dw]

As promised.  As found original paint, interior, drivetrain and docs.  Zero fluff.  I'll add another in a day or so.

[cook_dw]

And here is the other original born with blah blah blah car.  Both of these to previous cars are perfect examples of preservation and originality.

[camaronut]

If you look on page 74 of JMN's 4th edition book of all Camaro knowledge, this 69 RS Z28 is totally untouched since 1969.  It is completely original from front to back.....I was there for the photo shoot and was totally blown away at the sight of this car.  Totally amazing.

If you look at where the emblem is in this picture, it'll explain all the confusion from the Camaro Nats judges.  I'm sure this car was used as a reference.

As said in a previous post, a human installed these emblems........take it from there.

[cook_dw]

My point of posting these photos are even though these cars and processes had SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) there are still human errors; which in my eyes, makes these cars so unique and if you are able to confirm the oddities on an individual level then put it back the way it left the factory.  Right or wrong as it was intended to leave the plant they still showed up to owners this way.  If you can not confirm originality then by all means put them back the way they were supposed to be installed but for me its about the individualism of these cars that give them their personalities and uniqueness..

[camaronut]

My point of posting these photos are even though these cars and processes had SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) there are still human errors; which in my eyes, makes these cars so unique and if you are able to confirm the oddities on an individual level then put it back the way it left the factory.  Right or wrong as it was intended to leave the plant they still showed up to owners this way.  If you can not confirm originality then by all means put them back the way they were supposed to be installed but for me its about the individualism of these cars that give them their personalities and uniqueness..

Well said!!!

[ZLP955]

Here's mine in January 1971:

[william]

Baldwin-Motion Z/28-RS April '69 HP Cars magazine

[HOT3O2]

The RS emblem looks a little high on the grill.

[jdv69z]

The RS emblem is not factory.

[jk1969z28]

Just in case someone is not familiar with how the back of the emblem looks and what is molded to guide in the placement here is a visual.  Cars built by humans but some of those humans might have had a little bit of a good time the night before :-), if there were no guides in the emblem ok, but there is no denying the Z is split by a vertical AND centered on the horizontal just look at the back.

[BULLITT65]

Original owner car till 2007. Unrestored, yada yada. Pic his son took prior to selling:

[adjudimo]

Original owner car till 2007. Unrestored, yada yada. Pic his son took prior to selling:

This is how I remember the emblem looking in '69 and 70's when new. What I remember is that they always appeared centered over the turn signal in the lower valance. I detailed these cars after high school classes at a local Chevrolet/Olds/Pontiac dealership. No pictures, I was a kid earning a buck.