Author Topic: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?  (Read 7593 times)

cook_dw

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Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« on: April 21, 2014, 05:14:34 PM »
Last Friday I had the exhaust installed on the car which took all day but thats wasnt a big deal. Car sounded great (sorry no video yet) so I pulled it off the trailer and into the garage. Saturday morning I started having issues with idle and backfiring through the carb and dying. Figured it was just where it had been sitting for so long so I took it for a short ride around the neighborhood. As I am pulling back into the drive it acts like it is flooding and dies. Get it started back and pull into the garage, get out and pop the hood to rocker arm noise. I pull the valve cover and this is what I find. 4 of the 8 exhaust pushrods are destroyed on the rocker arm side. 3 on pass bank and 1 on drivers. I did not build this engine and what little I know about it doesnt give the enough info to determine the cause. So first things first is to check pushrod length and go from there. I really dont want to pull the engine out before I have a chance to drive it at least 100 miles.. Awesome luck dont you think...

Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

Mike S

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 05:28:38 PM »
What size motor and who assembled it?

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 05:30:31 PM »
396 & the guy who had the car previously
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 05:53:30 PM »
Many things come to mind. Very hard to give opinions from far away though. I have seen old gas, more so with newer type gas blends, cause gumming and sticking valves. This could have caused the valves to hit piston tops and an interference that caused damage. I have seen one head milled more than another causing geometry problems. I would use an indicator to determine Cam dimensions by setting the plunger on the retainer and setting lash to zero (may have to bottom out Hyd. lifter). If cam seems to indicate a high lift (.550 or larger) I would use a rocker mounted spring compressor  and install a set of light springs using indicator you can check for valve to piston clearance. Lastly, while the original two springs are off, have them tested for spring rate. Floating a valve on Big Blocks are more common, since the components are heavy and springs lose tension quickly. It could be floating the valve and damaging pushrod.
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

Mark

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 06:08:11 PM »
How long has that engine been running since it was done being assembled?  Looks like there is some kind of heat discoloration just below the current end of the pushrod.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
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cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 06:18:52 PM »
Already thought of all that as well.  Just irritated and wanting to vent.  lol  I will figure it out just not what I wanted to do on a fresh (8 year old built) engine.. ::)

Engine was broken in back then and had sat unstarted since 2006.  I would turn it over from time to time by hand.  Engine sounded fine when I fired it for the first time since and just a few weeks ago I noticed rocker noise and adjusted them then.  Now I know why there was noise the first time.  Its just odd it was only the exhaust and no intakes...

FYI the pushrods that were pulled out are 1010 mild steel.  Comp Magnum roller tip rocker.  Cam I am guessing by ear is either a .520 or .570ish lift cam (I am leaning to the more .570ish lift due to the radical sound).  Hyd flat tappet (that I do know).

Odd thing is the lifter side of the pushrod is fine.  Just the rocker side is damaged.  Almost like it was starving for oil.  Right now I want to make sure the geometry is correct and look for coil bind (which I do not think it has).

As far as runtime...  Other than break-in it has run maybe an hour if that.


No smoke and plugs look good except for the ones that had the issue which were a little fat but nothing major.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

Mike S

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 06:27:14 PM »
I had a feeling it was a BB being they have two different size push-rods. You may also want to check for any bent rocker studs.
I recommend to drop the pan to check for metal chips in case some are small enough to get pulled past the oil pump intake screen.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 06:39:27 PM »
I had a feeling you were just venting as I think you are about as savvy a Chev guy as they come. I also know you already had thought of all I suggested too. Some of those P-Rods have one end hardened for the guide plates. May have been installed wrong? I had a P-Rod shatter on the lifter end once. Usually, gasoline or geometry causes bent P-rods. I have also seen some Sm. Blocks P-rods go through the rocker. Are the P-Rods 5/16, 3/8 or 7/16 in.?
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

janobyte

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 06:51:40 PM »
Ever wipe a cam out ? same symptoms---strange only 4 of ehaust push rods. Checking your timing gear set.


400 68 GTO I had---nylon timing gear set ,severe carb back fire ,guess what??

 one of my SBC's severe carb back fire---cam wiped out ,a few bent push rods.

Both spit up raw fuel through the carb. Both I shut down ASAP with minimal damage. On the chevy, dropped the pan checking for shrapnal, minimal ,most caught by the filter ,changed the cam push rods etc ,ran it hard after that for about 10 years. Blocks now at home in the Anglia ,rotating assembly boxed up.

Really what else could it be but bad cam timing ? Only the upward force of the piston would be strong enough to bind those pushrods and big blocks are ,er ,BIG. Let us know--steve.

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 06:54:27 PM »
I had a feeling it was a BB being they have two different size push-rods. You may also want to check for any bent rocker studs.
I recommend to drop the pan to check for metal chips in case some are small enough to get pulled past the oil pump intake screen.

Mike

Ill see how it goes.  No plan of dropping anything at this point.  If I do drop the pan the engine will come out first.  


I had a feeling you were just venting as I think you are about as savvy a Chev guy as they come. I also know you already had thought of all I suggested too. Some of those P-Rods have one end hardened for the guide plates. May have been installed wrong? I had a P-Rod shatter on the lifter end once. Usually, gasoline or geometry causes bent P-rods. I have also seen some Sm. Blocks P-rods go through the rocker. Are the P-Rods 5/16, 3/8 or 7/16 in.?


3/8" and case hardened..
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 06:57:17 PM »
Ever wipe a cam out ? same symptoms---strange only 4 of ehaust push rods. Checking your timing gear set.


400 68 GTO I had---nylon timing gear set ,severe carb back fire ,guess what??

 one of my SBC's severe carb back fire---cam wiped out ,a few bent push rods.

Both spit up raw fuel through the carb. Both I shut down ASAP with minimal damage. On the chevy, dropped the pan checking for shrapnal, minimal ,most caught by the filter ,changed the cam push rods etc ,ran it hard after that for about 10 years. Blocks now at home in the Anglia ,rotating assembly boxed up.

Really what else could it be but bad cam timing ? Only the upward force of the piston would be strong enough to bind those pushrods and big blocks are ,er ,BIG. Let us know--steve.

Already checked timing.  Cam lobe was the first thought until I saw the pushrods.  After finding 4 I doubt its the cam.  One I would have thought that but not 4..  But I have been wrong before..
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 09:04:15 PM »
Darrell,

What compression ratio and piston are you running ? Any specs left by the builder ? I remember hearing this engine run on a couple of occasions - sounded great then, but maybe when you actually got to drive it, the higher RPM got some valves into the pistons ?

I doubt oil starvation would have taken them down this quick - more likely impact. Could be wrong piston/valve relief for the cam lift -

Regards,
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 09:11:01 PM »
They are 11 to 1 TRW pistons and its oval port open chamber heads.  As for actual compression I am guessing 10 or 10.5 to 1 with the heads.  I dont think valves have hit the pistons (might be wrong).  Ill be doing a leak down test later in the week along with a compression test just to be on the safe side.  Most RPM this motor has seen is 5K.  At least with me.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »
My experience with 11:1 slugs (closed chamber) are they were meant for square port heads. The corner of the dome will hit the combustion chamber on oval ports. Are the pistons made for oval ports? Not that this would cause your problem, just an observation and my knowledge of these engines. Back when I was a teen, a guy (kind of a butcher, I will add) told us he did this piston swap all the time and just revved the engine to shave off that little corner that hit. I have a set of pistons that had "gone through this treatment". Like Janobyte, I am suspect of a timing problem or a geometry problem. Can you take a pic of all affected PRs along with an undamaged? It might shed a little more light?
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 09:28:25 PM »
The remark earlier about the weak spring installation might be a good crosscheck to see just how much lift you can get away with. Piston at TDC, depress the valve until it makes contact, and measure. What ratio are the rockers ? Cam could be stout enough (and I remember the idle) to play hell with the pushrods if the valves come anywhere close to the pistons.

At least it's apparently just pushrods - I've seen BB internals when you hydraulic a piston - rods look like corkscrews, or grenade through the motor.

Regards -  
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 09:32:52 PM »
Again Idk if the pistons were made for open chamber or not.  I didnt build it.  Ill snap a few pics later on when I get off work.  I really havent had any time to look over anything at this point.  Just took a few minutes yesterday morning to pull all the pushrods out.  If I have time this week I should be able to get a better idea of the problem.

As for the ratio its stock 1.72
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 09:36:40 PM »
Fair enough - let us know. Hate to hear you had a momentary setback - I'm anxious to see this one on the road (as I know you are).
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 09:42:12 PM »
It was technically on the road..  lol  although it was only for a few minutes..   ::) :(
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 09:52:06 PM »
Better than sitting in a garage for 34 years - like one I know of -
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 10:11:38 PM »
Lol
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 01:17:34 AM »
Whelp after looking into it 5 of the exhaust pushrods were bent & one intake.  That's checking them on the work bench. I'll know 100% tomorrow when I get to work & roll them on the granite slab.  Further investigation has concluded that the exhaust valves are hitting the pistons.  Later in the week I'll do a leak down & go from there.  I'm speechless at this point.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 01:30:12 AM »
Makes total sense. Easy thing to confuse BB pistons and reliefs - one version even uses two different part numbers, one for each side of the block (I found this during a search for the L78 proper piston part numbers). Betcha the builder never checked the valve to piston clearance during the build - you're probably lucky it didn't mangle it worse. Sounds like a cam change would be in the works -

Hate it happened, but glad it did it now rather than strand you somewhere, or grenade it -

1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 01:56:02 AM »
Reason I say I am speechless is that this was over looked (piston to valve clearance) in the build process..
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

janobyte

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2014, 01:03:11 PM »
Wow ,you know who built it ( 8 years ago) If the above is the case, no way that motor was broke in as claimed. Solid lifter would have presented when rotating on the stand. Once the hydraulic ones pumped up...can't imagine the other 3 exhaust didn't suffer. No use pondering on this , once you open it up, you'll discover the mix matching of parts. Sorry man.

Like I posted ,I've wiped pushrods out with no piston or valve damage. Other than the PITA of pulling the engine , may not be a lot of damage to your wallet.

Oh, cut open your oil filter to see what's in there for metal particles. (if the lobes got ground off ,guess where they are at) You know this Darrell, posting for the 100's who happen on this site and don't.

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2014, 02:20:33 PM »
Yeah knowing how I am; Ill be pulling the motor and doing a complete teardown, inspection & rebuild.  Sucks but I will feel better about it knowing I built the engine...

Also, when I was using the Snap-on bore scope I noticed metallic on the tops of pistons (which is expected) along with scoring on the cylinder wall on at least one cylinder.  Needless to say I could chew nails at this point.  But I am already running combos through my head on how I want to build it.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

68Zproject

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 02:35:42 PM »
I know how you feel.  Long story short, I didn't have an engine balanced when it was inspected and installed.  Then I had my throttle stick and I pulled a couple of rocker arm studs out, luckily no damage.  In the process of tear-down and inspection I found the crank to be bad and of course then the bearings.  I had to hone and then clean the block out about 10 times to get all the grit out.  If I would have just made sure it was right before I got in a hurry to get the motor in, I would have been driving it for the last year and a half.
68Z28

JoeC

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 01:53:52 PM »
sorry to hear about it

also check your rocker arm ratio

for example , if the engine was set up for 1.7s then someone installed 1.8s 
it could have an interference problem

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 02:11:33 PM »
sorry to hear about it

also check your rocker arm ratio

for example , if the engine was set up for 1.7s then someone installed 1.8s  
it could have an interference problem


Thanks.  1.72 ratio

Again Idk if the pistons were made for open chamber or not.  I didnt build it.  Ill snap a few pics later on when I get off work.  I really havent had any time to look over anything at this point.  Just took a few minutes yesterday morning to pull all the pushrods out.  If I have time this week I should be able to get a better idea of the problem.

As for the ratio its stock 1.72
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2014, 03:08:45 AM »
More detail pics of the pushrods.








After working some OT today; I was able to pull the engine out tonight.  Tomorrow I will be able to tear it down and see where the problem is hiding..







Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

z28z11

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2014, 03:19:47 AM »
Looks like the pushrods were clearanced for more oil delivery, eh ?

Hate you had to do that, after working so long to finish it up. At least the firewall and long block look like they parted cleanly - no marks -

Guess the pushrod ends are in the pan - had to come out anyway you look at it.

Regards -
 
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2014, 03:22:25 AM »
Looks like the pushrods were clearanced for more oil delivery, eh ?

Hate you had to do that, after working so long to finish it up. At least the firewall and long block look like they parted cleanly - no marks -

Guess the pushrod ends are in the pan - had to come out anyway you look at it.

Regards -
 

It definitely is a handful pulling a big block by yourself.  I almost had it out and then had to drop it back down to close the garage door to get the engine & trans high enough to come out.  lol
I found a couple pieces in the valley of the heads and also had a tip fall out of the header... :o >:(
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

janobyte

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2014, 04:06:12 PM »
Bouncing back to this thread...don't overlook a hydraulic roller if your going in that direction. I run one with hydro roller lifters in the race car and am very pleased with it.

No slop in your timing chain ? Cam timing retarded/advanced ? I would think if the valves were not closing(weak springs) you would have heard them floating something awful before catastrophic failure.

Back to a binding issue ,get a straight line measurement of a bent rod vs. true one and subtract the difference. How much are milled from the heads, gasket thickness ,deck height ?  My guess is pushrod length obviously wasn't checked in assembly. Again a real mystery to me that motor ran fine for awhile before breakage Geometry problem.

 No raw fuel in the headers ?

What was your run time? Was the initial "tick" immediate upon oil pressure coming up? Was it primed before start up ? I continue to find it hard to believe it was broken in prior to your purchase.

Goes without saying use an adjustable pushrod to obtain proper length this go around. They will vary with machining/cam/rotating assemblies which deviate from stock measurements. Sometimes per cylinder, per I/E. I'm into bigger cube small blocks but has to hold true for " the heavy engines" also.

I would have bet  shrapnel made it's way to the bottom of the pan and "machining" to the filter--good for you. Keep us updated on your findings.

(hydro roller/roller lifters, fresh/matched valve train, low maintenance ground pounder with good vacuum and idle characteristics IMO)

BillOhio

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2014, 04:49:55 PM »
I like roller idea too. Hate to admit this if anyone didn't know but I have a 67 GTX with a 472 hemi. It's a 4 speed and when I bought it, it had a fair sized hydraulic in it and trying to drive slow it would buck around and acted terrible. The motor didn't have enough compression for it either. Took it out and put in a custom grind solid street roller and the motor is so much better to drive it's not funny. The thing is just an animal from 2500-6000. The roller lifters for it and they ones in my 383 were pricey tho. I got the GTX in Florida and my parents were in Florida and spend 3 months at a mobile home park. My dad takes his ford retractable down so the neighbors are used to cars around. We would try and drive the GTX through the park and it's bucking around with no manners. Elderly lady down the street told my dad something's wrong with that red car!
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2014, 01:01:37 PM »
Bouncing back to this thread...don't overlook a hydraulic roller if your going in that direction. I run one with hydro roller lifters in the race car and am very pleased with it.
Back to a binding issue ,get a straight line measurement of a bent rod vs. true one and subtract the difference. How much are milled from the heads, gasket thickness ,deck height ?  My guess is pushrod length obviously wasn't checked in assembly. Again a real mystery to me that motor ran fine for awhile before breakage Geometry problem.

 No raw fuel in the headers ?

What was your run time? Was the initial "tick" immediate upon oil pressure coming up? Was it primed before start up ? I continue to find it hard to believe it was broken in prior to your purchase.

Goes without saying use an adjustable pushrod to obtain proper length this go around. They will vary with machining/cam/rotating assemblies which deviate from stock measurements. Sometimes per cylinder, per I/E. I'm into bigger cube small blocks but has to hold true for " the heavy engines" also.

I would have bet  shrapnel made it's way to the bottom of the pan and "machining" to the filter--good for you. Keep us updated on your findings.

(hydro roller/roller lifters, fresh/matched valve train, low maintenance ground pounder with good vacuum and idle characteristics IMO)

No slop, Timing is dead on.  I will degree the cam once I go back together with it.  After dis-assembly its not as bad as I first thought.  The valves were just kissing the pistons and no real damage has occurred. No debris in the oil pan and cylinder walls look great.  I will be putting new bearings in the block & on the rods just because.  I have checked the pushrod length and it is correct.  At first I had thought the pistons were hitting the heads but that is not the case after claying.  Same with the P to V there is 0.050" clearance there.  I am going to chalk it up to engine not running for 7 plus years and things didnt want to play nice and after it bending the pushrods and me readjusting them it began to destroy the pushrods.  After all the pushrods were 1010 mild steel so I guess I am fortunate because it destroyed them and not something else like a valve or piston or cam.  Still not 100% yet on the cam.  I am old school and I have a Crane blueprint cam I bought years ago. Its a solid flat tappet L78 cam that I may end up using since all I would need is lifters.  I am going to go ahead and have the heads reworked and new springs installed and start putting it back together.  If it fails again then Ill build another motor or go LSx (since I have the ECU, harness & forged shortblock sitting in the garage.  Either way I am pushing forward. 

As for the guy that built the engine; I have talked to him and he broke it in and drove it a couple times and when my father got the car he ran it quite a bit and even drove it up the street a couple times.  He is not the type that would overlook details but everyone is human.  The guy that did the heads has turned out to have a very bad rep in the area and is not longer in business so if there is a problem with heads Ill have the answer as to why and who.  Nothing more I can do now but move on and build it back.

Thanks for any and all tips, replies or things to look for.  Fortunately this is not my first or last rodeo.   :D
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

janobyte

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2014, 05:06:04 PM »
Yup,I understand. For me I expect a certain feel when it gets back together--call it nostalgic. Choppy cam ,steep gears and loud. Add the smell of race fuel..not for everyone ,but the Z I want in the garage.

Depending how you look at it ,consider yourself lucky on this one.

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 01:28:40 AM »
Finally found the time to get some pics posted up.  Got the shortblock disassembled and pressure washed & cleaned.  Pistons not yet cleaned.




No pistons were harmed from the P to V issues.



Crankshaft in great shape.  Still needs to be cleaned though.



The madness.



Drivers side head on the bench and torn down.  Kinda surprised this thing didnt smoke a little.  Every umbrella seal was torn in 2.  Looks like its gonna need a least a few guides as well.







Looks like Felpro gaskets will not work on this setup.  Cant believe it was put together like this.  Mr. Gasket's 5827 intake gaskets here I come!!!  Exhaust ports are just as bad (not pictured).





A few of the goodies have started to show up.



Also planning on adding this to the coating arsenal.

Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2014, 12:28:59 AM »
My boxes of parts are all in, but not for a cool project ! Older I get ,the more I always look for the positive....now you get to build it how you want it. Plus, engines are one of the more pleasurable tasks, IMO. Too bad you don't live closer ,picked up a test stand last year with nothing on it. Never used it yet. After having one on the dyno...twice, good feeling knowing it's tuned and ready to fire once you set it in.

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2014, 11:30:08 AM »
Yeah I have access to one and will be using it for the tuning and break-in of the engine.  Those test stands are great to have.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2014, 09:44:12 PM »
Finally got my new intake gaskets in and got the ports scribbed. Also got the main bearings gauged and then shot them with Cerakote Slick Coat.

  







Before:




After Cerakote Coating:





Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2014, 10:10:33 PM »
Remembering reading a few years back on the pros of coatings, never did any though. Special process ?


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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2014, 10:38:45 PM »
Not really.  This company you have either oven cured or air.  I went with air.  Just spray with a paint gun and let it air cure.  Here is the gun I used and of course the Cerakote.


Great little gun for what I use it for.  Put a regulator on it and run it at 30psi and you should get the same results I did.  I would recommend to run some Paint Thinner through the gun first but other than that once you get the pressure set (just remember to check it often due to its sensitivity) and spray away.  I have always had this done on motors I built in the past (newer LS engines) but never did it myself just sent them out and had another company do it. 

Being that my bearing tolerance is at 0.003" on all the mains this coating will add 0.001" roughly so I will be where I want to be on tolerances.  Next once I install new cam bearings and finish prepping the block and slick coating & thermal coating the pistons Ill do the rod bearings as well.  Once the engine is broken in on the motor stand I am going to ceramic coat the headers with the high temp coating in the titanium color.  (see last pic)





http://www.harborfreight.com/adjustable-detail-spray-gun-92126.html



https://www.cerakotehightemp.com/finishes/


Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

janobyte

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2014, 11:33:17 PM »
Answered my next question tolerance.

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 07:35:17 PM »
After about 4hrs I can see a little progress. Unfortunately, I cracked the collet on my air grinder tonight so I wont get much else done tonight.. Im guessing Ill have at least 40hrs in these heads. Here is a comparison shot of 2 of the intake runners that are untouched vs 2 that are roughed in.  Hope to get a little more finished this weekend.





Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 02:56:00 PM »
nice work, I like to see the quality time you are putting into this. It will pay off when you have it all together, and know it is right internally.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2014, 03:17:01 PM »
Thanks man.  Its been a few years since I have ported a set of heads and those took me several weeks off and on and those were newer LS heads and of course were aluminum..  Little more progress from over the weekend. Slow going due to a small compressor. I think its time to bring ole green (60's Kellogg compressor) out of retirement.. Still roughing everything in little by little. Once I get the entire head roughed then Ill go back and finish out every port.







Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2014, 04:44:42 PM »
those small compressors can be depressing with how slow they go, and having to wait on them. Good thing is they go so slow getting the air pressure back up it really forces  you to take your time, and less mistakes. Trying to see the cup half full for ya
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2014, 10:45:44 PM »
For anyone building an engine or working on some heads; I would suggest you look into Cerakote coatings.  So far this stuff is amazing and incredibly easy to apply and I can see the durability in these coatings.








Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2014, 09:41:12 PM »
Its been a little over 8 months since I have heard this engine run.  Yesterday I began putting it on the run stand and ran into problem after problem.  Today the fruits of my labor finally paid off.  Still plenty to do.  Engine needs to be painted and laid into the engine bay.  More to come in the next few weeks.




The video of the sweetness.

Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2014, 10:10:38 PM »
Yea! Congrats! Happy New year! patience is rewarded. Glad for you my friend.
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2015, 03:27:16 PM »
Congrats Darrell! Sounds great! Love that stand. Did you build it from scratch or was it a kit? What kind of advantages do get from the coated pistons? I love Cerakote from my firearms, but I never thought to do any engine coatings with it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 03:51:13 PM by SgtHawkUSMC »
Hawk
69 SS396 L34 M21 BS
Z23 711 U17 Hugger Orange

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2015, 07:19:02 PM »
Thanks guys.  The engine stand was a kit and I borrowed it from a fellow local car guy.  The micro slick is used on the piston skirts as well as main, rod & cam bearings.  Like many aftermarket pistons that come with the coated skirts this is used as a dry lubricate for wear.  The piston coat is used to aid in thermal properties.  Allowing the reduction in hot spots on pistons and combustion chambers by allowing to dissipate the heat evenly over the surface.  Not often used in street N/A engines (piston coat) but helps with forced induction applications.   
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2015, 07:21:32 PM »
So your planning on dropping it in the S-10 for the break in period right???    :D

(good job Darrell)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2015, 07:43:06 PM »
Yep a 396 bbc s10.   ;)
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2015, 10:11:28 PM »
I do suggest using a slightly larger gas tank -

Regards
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2015, 01:23:23 AM »
Baby steps.  Almost there.



Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2015, 01:31:41 AM »
Wow, that looks great Darrell!
Len H.  Kansas
1969 Z/28 07A X77D80 Hugger Orange/Black Vinyl Top, born with drive train, complete 3 owner history.
1967 Chevelle SS396 138 Convertible/Red/Black int.
1966 Chevelle SS396 138 4sp California/Smog/Black/Red int. POP, born with drive train, original CA black plates

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2015, 01:57:30 AM »
Wow, that looks great Darrell!

X2...I expect nothing less from you DW
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2015, 04:21:33 AM »
Looks and sounds good!
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2015, 12:06:04 PM »
looking good

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2015, 01:01:53 PM »
Thanks guys.  I hope to hear it run in the car by this coming weekend.  I hope.  Once I finish it Ill post a video of the whole car after I do a deeeeeeep clean. ;D
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2015, 10:10:39 PM »
Darrell, Do you know the Header brand and primary tube size. I noticed 67 w/ P.S.
If you know the exact PN or was it something that was found along the way- acquired with car?

Jim
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2015, 02:15:12 AM »
They are 2" primaries & 3.5" collectors.  Brand is unknown.  They were for a non p/s car so the primary tube had to be "messaged" to make them fit.  They are around 35-40 years old.  I had them blasted and coated them myself.  Part # on the flanges are L 325 & R 325.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2015, 02:39:02 AM »
Could be these? Part# D325 Doug's Headers http://performanceparts.com/part/Dougs-Headers/D325
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2015, 12:52:07 PM »
Its certainly possible but the bends are different.  That doesn't mean that they didn't change their design.  I always thought they were Thorley headers but when I called them about a week ago and asked they didn't have any old catalogs and the part # for the 325 was for a newer model LS swap header..  I asked this question over on Yenko in the "Day 2" section and another member there posted what he had which was an old catalog and the part #'s are different.  So I really do not know at this point.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2015, 12:32:05 AM »
P.S....watch the fuel by the battery next time on the stand  ;)   ( I am a firefighter.)

Looks like it's coming along nicely. Schedule permitting ,should be finally able to get back to mine end of Feb. ( coming off a much needed skiing vacation, so I'm not complaining) Honestly just been prolonging as I have been undecided on the direction. Never wanted to go back stock , Day 2 was an option, but confines it still. To be continued...

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2015, 01:49:31 AM »
P.S....watch the fuel by the battery next time on the stand  ;)   ( I am a firefighter.)

Will do!   ;)

The moment of truth.  Ran out of daylight but that didnt stop me.   ;D

Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2015, 02:11:12 AM »
Your pic looks like you are working in the dark... :D

(Your link did not work for me)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2015, 02:38:49 AM »
Hmmm....  Worked for me..??..  Should send you to my photobucket when you click on it.  Its a video.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2015, 03:05:24 AM »
Drooool ! Nasty! Droool...Lov'n it. Nothing better than a cammed up BB chev. That thing looks/sounds sinister sweet. Yea, I'm jealous. Hats off to you and your wicked skills. ;) ;)
Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2015, 04:51:17 AM »
figured it out. Sounds crisp and clean, and now you know the thing inside and out. WTG
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2015, 12:37:11 PM »
Thanks guys.

Nothing better than a cammed up BB chevy.


Thats a factory spec ground Crane Cam Blueprint cam.  Stock L78.   ;)
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2015, 02:10:32 PM »
Agree with Bullitt...very crisp , all cylinders hitting, (no smoke) nice "lobe" to it.  Can't beat firing it on a stand  prior to installation. On the race engine I have alignment marks dist/intake.

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2015, 02:40:17 PM »
I just dropped it in and advanced it a little and it hit instantly.  Ill put a light on it in the next few days and get it dialed in.  Ill set it at 34-35 & call it good for now on mix fuel.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2015, 01:18:11 AM »
Better video and pictures.

Click me for video













Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2015, 05:39:19 PM »
Darrell, could not download video. Would also like to see your 68 Z.

Pete

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2015, 06:15:15 PM »
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2015, 12:46:22 AM »
Here is a new walk around video and a couple pics after a cam swap and a little more head work..   ;D





67 Video walk around
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2015, 05:40:14 PM »
Finally got it out this morning with the Cragars and snagged a few new pics.















Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2015, 07:03:21 PM »
looks good and you have been busy!!
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2015, 11:11:27 PM »
Today was the day that I went to my first car show with the 67.  Being in the Modified Camaro class there were several cars that entered and I honestly didnt think I would even place.  To my surprise I brought home 1st in the class.  Kinda makes you feel good when someone else recognizes the hard work you put into something.

 

Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2015, 03:21:37 AM »
congrats, great pic with the torq thrusts. Plus now you know the motor inside and out.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2015, 12:49:48 PM »
Thanks buddy.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

BULLITT65

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2015, 07:03:34 PM »
Did you swap those over from your green car, or is that a new set?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Bad Luck is Better Than No Luck; Right?
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2015, 10:24:05 PM »
Same wheels.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28