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Author Topic: Another 1969 Z/28 "Barn Find"  (Read 1456 times)
janobyte
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2014, 03:26:12 PM »

Looks like nobody is really biting on it.
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kenmerr80
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2014, 04:55:54 PM »

is it unethical of me to ask everyones opinion on what you think this car is worth?   I realize the factor of "how bad somebody, really wants the car" determines it.    Just trying to get an idea and compare it to other "barn finds"
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janobyte
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2014, 05:11:04 PM »

302 that can be verified by builder....after purchase. No VIN. Shiny engine on stand.

Jerry M certified !, of course a typo on the report which is blamed on him.

Dubious trim tag rivets...covered ?

I really don't care ,but something about this one tics me off. Look what a nice clean Camaro is going for and subtract the cost $$$$ of getting this one done.
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2014, 05:55:04 PM »

X2 Jano. You have the right idea on inspecting cars. I think your example was a no brainer once you saw it in person. BUT I think for every guy trying to pass off a fake 69 Z there are 10 buyers who know very little- just that they really want one. I think there is enough fraud, in the hobby to warrant a second guru of  first gen Camaros. I know Steve Shauger is very knowledgable as well, especially with the show he puts on of original cars. I think someone of Steve or Jerry's caliber, maybe based closer to the west coast would be a great aid to us, and especially the first time buyers, or guys that don't crawl under cars or turn wrenches. It is a skill to be able to read between the lines and know what is correct and what someone is trying to make it look like.

I think more than one outlet to get your car certified correct or numbers matching would be beneficial. I have seen guys on this site have a nice car get inspected, and the motor or color was questioned on his report, and then the same car is looked at a few years later and now it is certified numbers matching and or paint correct. In those cases a back up report by another professional looking at the car may have prevented confusion on such vital points, of contention and value in addition to originality.

It is frustrating if you were/are the owner of such a car, and hear of a second inspection done or a prior one for that matter that turns up a different result than your report you paid for.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
janobyte
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 04:40:12 AM »

You got my point ,a no brainer Wink

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ZLP955
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 05:15:24 AM »

What always stands out to me whenever I see a CHP Certification, is the statement:
"According to our data base and historical Chevrolet records, this car is an original <insert model> "
I guess only Jerry can confirm, and would not do that for obvious reasons, but since the only known GM records amount to the shipper info (not yet available via the NCRS), and unless the car has previously been inspected and certified by him (in which case, why re-appraise it?), what does the statement really mean?
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP
BULLITT65
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 10:42:36 AM »

I have seen guys get a new report because in the initial report it was not reported to have the original motor. The new owner possibly has pulled the motor and the new report says original matching numbers motor. I am not privy to know the exact details of how each case came to be, but have seen this happen more than once. Original paint color or stripe color on a particular report may say "wrong stripe color" , but not fully explained, until another report is done a few years later, which more details come forward possibly, but now the report may say color on car is the way it left the factory. I am unsure how much new information is involved with a "new" report.

I agree with you as far as that statement standing out. It sounds good, BUT is there some secret Chevrolet records that Jerry has? Or is he saying for instance he may look at a car and say it looks like an original Z, so we know according to chevrolet records there were 20,302 produced, and we do not show any previous report in or data base that conflicts with this inspection, so :

" According to our data base and historical Chevrolet records, this car is an original Z/28."

Again Jerry has seen many up close around the country, and at the Camaro nationals, I a sure he is a wealth of knowledge. I am just saying instead of waiting for new info to come out on a car possibly, it may help a buyer or seller to get a second professional opinion on a car.

 Although I have heard suggestions that there should be many guys around the country to perform such a service, I do not agree with that. It may make sense logistically to have a few, but I think to reputable and to keep the hobby honest it would be best for a very small group of people to be the ones who actually certify. I truly believe operating initially independent of Jerry, so any findings are not skewed would be best. After initial inspection a collaboration (if possible) with Jerry would be optimal.
What I could see happening, is a buyer/seller getting a report from Jerry , and having questions that Jerry may or may not be able to satisfy with answers, and someone(s) contacting a second guy or service for another professional opinion, where maybe he says Jerry couldn't say for sure if the partial vin number by the oil filter were correct. Since we (buyer/seller) are talking about a swing of 50% of the cars value (or purchase price) based on the original motor being there can you please inspect the car to verify if it is an original motor or not.
With the rampant fraud, and how much guys are paying for these cars these days, I just think of it like a guy worked really hard for the money to buy this car, possibly tens of thousands of dollars, we need to get this as right as humanly possible at the time of inspection, and if there are any questions lets try to verify, and get all the facts before the report is generated.
Or this guy did a lot of work putting this car together lets do our due diligence to make sure we describe our findings as accurate possible and if there is a discrepancy, we need to make sure we describe what or why there is one, or what kind of factual evidence we did find, that led to our findings.

I understand I may be a lone voice in the wilderness saying this on this site.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
jack92584
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2014, 11:56:00 AM »

I need to correct my earlier post. When I first read the report  I thought it said the the interior and exterior colors do not match the trim tag. What it actually says is “The exterior and interior colors do match the trim tag on the firewall”. Having said that it doesnt make me feel any better about the report because thats not the wording that I've seen in known authentic reports. The ones I have that I know are authentic are phrased “The exterior and interior colors are original and correct for this vehicle and match the trim identification tag on firewall.” Not exactly a smoking gun but certainly a red flag
Also, revisting the report I did notice something else that would case me to question its authenticity. According to the ad the car was driven into the barn in 1977 and now has a  “non descript” small block in it. Jerrys report notes a 302 with a 618 casting. Are we to believe that the “non descript” small block made its way into the car sometime after 2007 when the report was done? Again the wording on the report is not consistent with others I've seen. If there was a 302 present either in or out of the car at the time of inspection guaranteed that Jerry M would have made note of the casting and assembly dates. The engine description would read something more like Engine:  V1113DZ assembly date, “386” block casting, casting date K68, original 302 engine   
 
is it unethical of me to ask everyones opinion on what you think this car is worth?   I realize the factor of "how bad somebody, really wants the car" determines it.    Just trying to get an idea and compare it to other "barn finds"
Bidding is over 20k and the reserve is not met. IMO even 20k is too much for what I believe is  a possible X77 car with non original drivetrain in need of complete restoration Add 30k (or more) for a proper restoration and your in 50k and have a car that might be worth 40k or even less. I bought my car which is a rotisserie restored X77 with a date code correct but not matching  302 for 30K. I cant see this car being worth more than 10K..maybe a bit more if the shiny new engine without a vin could be autheticated as a real DZ.
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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
1968RSZ28
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 07:38:50 PM »

No sale 4-10-14...

Reserve not met = ? (> $20,300.00)

Paul
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